What's in your fermenter? 2019

[ChristinaS1]

On 11/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, Greeny1525229549 said:

You would find if you kept that slurry a year and a half you could still make another starter out of it. 

If you know you are going to keep it for more than six months, better off freezing it with a little glycerine, as you will end up with more cells at any time after that than if you didn't freeze it. Can't imagine that there would be many cells left alive at fridge temps, after 18 months.

Cheers,

Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

57 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

I have been doing starters from Dry Yeast Sachets... and after pitching the starter this latest Ale the brew was cranking overnight at 18 degC… 

Hey BB, How many grams of dry yeast do you add, and how big is your starter? Do you shake it or use a stir plate?

Cheers,

Christina.

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Hey BB, How many grams of dry yeast do you add, and how big is your starter? Do you shake it or use a stir plate?

Hey there Christina!

I have been using Safale US05 quite a bit - and I just use one Sachet which is 11.5g - for a 23-27L AG Brew - and I use approx. 100g LDME (Light Dry Malt Extract - Barley) in 1L of water...  and I mix the LDME in boiling water... so maybe 140g LDME in 1.4L boiling water...  in a big old glass preserving jar type arrangement - and then shake the living daylights out of it over a period of hours as it cools down... every time I go past it I give it another shake ; )

Only danger is when is v v hot straight up first that the jar's seal can spit - so safety first best just swirl to begin with and more vigorous shaking later once 'off the boil' ; )

So once down to around 18 then I pitch the dry 11.5g of US05 out of the sachet and let it grow overnight releasing C02 from time to time and then the next day say 24 hours later I swirly it around to mobilise the yeast and then pitch into the big brew.  

Seems to work a treat though maybe a little unorthodox.   

This is just a bit of 'bottom of the Boil Kettle' with trub that I decanted for an OG measure after settlement but couldn't bear to put the rest into the compost and pitched some ancient US05 harvested slurry for a laugh to see how it goes... I just open slightly to let the C02 out when I am wandering past... there is a swag of trub in there so probably will be a bit skanky - will put some in a swingtop bottle with a Coopers lolly and see what happens   Hope that helps.

[ChristinaS1]

Hi @Bearded Burbler. Depending of the OG of the wort and the volume of the batch, a starter may not be necessary with dry yeast. For a sub 1.050 brew of 19-23L one package of dry yeast should be enough. A fresh package of dry yeast probably has double the number of cells in it compared to a fresh tube of liquid yeast. 

The problem with making a 1L starter with 11.5g of dry yeast is that you don't get many new cells. There isn't enough food to support much cell division; the pitching rate is too high.

Your method is not far off of the "Shaken Not Stirred" method I use. A Shaken Not Stirred starter is made using 1L of wort in a 4L bottle with a narrow mouth. Right after pitching the yeast* you shake the bejezus out it for 2 minutes, to aerate, and then put a bung and airlock in the top and leave it alone for 12-18hours.  The method is meant to be used with liquid yeast but I use a package of kit yeast, which contains 7g. The reduced pitching rate of 7g vs 11.5g allows for more cell division.

I have used both 4L glass carboys and 4L plastic water jugs with ribs on the inside to make starters and prefer the later, as it seems make the wort more foamy / aerate better. If using plastic, just be sure the wort has cooled or you will melt it. Rather than waiting for the starter to ferment out the idea is to pitch at high krausen. The new cells that grow will never have been exposed to the shear forces of agitation and will be at the peak of health when pitched....Regardless of whether or not you believe the shear forces of agitation are harmful, there can be no debate that pitching at high krausen is ideal.

Cheers,

Christina.

*I always used to rehydrate dry yeast, but I discontinued the practice a few months ago.  I have not noticed a significant difference. Note that I have not yet had occasion to make a starter since I stopped rehydrating, but I will try it next time. 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by ChristinaS1

[Pezzza]

11 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Hi @Bearded Burbler. Depending of the OG of the wort and the volume of the batch, a starter may not be necessary with dry yeast. For a sub 1.050 brew of 19-23L one package of dry yeast should be enough. A fresh package of dry yeast probably has double the number of cells in it compared to a fresh tube of liquid yeast. 

---

The problem with making a 1L starter with 11.5g of dry yeast is that you don't get many new cells. There isn't enough food to support much cell division; the pitching rate is too high.

---

*I always used to rehydrate dry yeast, but I discontinued the practice a few months ago.  I have not noticed a significant difference. Note that I have not yet had occasion to make a starter since I stopped rehydrating, but I will try it next time. 

 

Thanks Christina.  Most appreciated.

I accept your critique with thanks.  But the thing is that this basic 'bush methodology' seems to work a treat - making that basic starter and if pitch the starter in the evening - next morning roaring Kräusen…. is that not success?  And it is more like 1.5L not just a Litre.  ['Bush' here means boonies/hillbilly/goon up thee leck types-going up the lake as you Canadians say... sort of out in the middle of nowhere and you gotta make do with what resources yer got which may mean improvisation]

But I do take your point regards not enough tucker for me yeast... I could make a larger starter solution.  That sounds like a good idea.   Maybe 2.5L or 3L?  I mean your shaken-not-stirred method uses 7g in 1L... if I am using 11.5g in 1.5L maybe I am not that far off it?

I don't do sub 1.050 brews if I can help it... I would rather 1.055 as my base and then higher - in general... and most are more like 23-27L in volume.

And I guess my bush practices are a bit rough-n-ready but honestly I don't seem to have too many issues getting a festive big frothy Kräusen and although I am not a BJCP expert I believe my beer tastes good and most non-megaswill folk seem to think it is Gold 

But am all for continuous improvement... so might try making up more wort volume for the starter so my yeast babies have got more tucker to chew on ; )

I actually do have a stir plate now but haven't got the stir bar and Erl-flask etc yet.

[Beerlust]

I don't normally take a gravity reading this early in a primary ferment, but such was the activity of the WLP059 I was curious to what it had chewed through in a perfect 48hrs.

31-32 SG points. Impressive.

Only about 6-8 points to go to reach expected FG. Hopefully it gets there.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

Today I’ll have a stout, a house pale and 2 Saison’s in FVs ready to go to bottle for Xmas time 

[ozlizard]

The recipe for Coopers Session Ale says to dry hop at day 7. It is now day 4 and the fermentation was crazy for 3 days and now has stopped. Should I still wait until day 7, pros/cons?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Checked the pilsner earlier and it's down to 1.010 so I'm calling it done, no real need for another sample. I'll drop the controller down to 12 now, then smaller increments each day to 3. 

Just boiled up a starter wort for the brew from yesterday, so will pitch that tonight and look to pitch into the batch on Friday or the weekend. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, ozlizard said:

The recipe for Coopers Session Ale says to dry hop at day 7. It is now day 4 and the fermentation was crazy for 3 days and now has stopped. Should I still wait until day 7, pros/cons?

Check your SG. If it is very close to finished, I would do the dry hop.

Day 7 is a benchmark number of days to be confident fermentation has finished.  You get the best hop aroma extraction after fermentation.   During fermentation, the CO2 produced strips out some of the hop aroma. 

Some of the Coopers recipes say dry hop on day 4 or even day 3.  Even though some aroma might be lost, the fermentation activity helps to stir the hops through the brew.  I do not know if the stirring would offset the loss of aroma. 

[ozlizard]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Check your SG. If it is very close to finished, I would do the dry hop.

It is supposed to finish around 1010 to 1014 and it's already at 1012! Wow that was fast! Looks like I should be dry hopping eh?

Edited December 2, 2019 by ozlizard

[Pezzza]

Hey there @ChristinaS1 thanks for the suggestion re the Yeast Starter volume/greater food source.

I did my W34/70 starter 11.5g dry sachet in an increased volume of 2.3L last night (2.3 is about all I can reasonably fit in) with about 270g of LDME in the mix...  got some Kräusen by the morning.  So pitched into the 27 or so Litres of c. 1066 OG FV at 21 deg C this morning... ... am having a crack at a 21 deg C Lager with W34/70 as per the Bruelosophy experiment --  I don't have the extra brew-fridge space at the moment and the Larder is around 21 so it seemed a good opportunity to try this method... for better or for worse... anyway the Brew is happily burbling away now.

Mmmm might be more of an Urbock than a normal lager ; )  I used to like Einbecker Urbock helles when I was in Hannover years ago...  The old Mai-bock was a big fave too : )

Edited December 2, 2019 by Bearded Burbler

[Otto Von Blotto]

Starters should be pitched with between 25-100 million cells per mL for optimal yeast health and growth. Being conservative on the cell count in the package, if there's say 150 billion cells in it then the starter should be a minimum of 1.5 litres in size. 

[Lab Cat]

19 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

am having a crack at a 21 deg C Lager with W34/70 as per the Bruelosophy experiment --  Mmmm might be more of an Urbock than a normal lager ; )  I used to like Einbecker Urbock helles when I was in Hannover years ago...  The old Mai-bock was a big fave too : )

 

Curious - wouldn't a lager brewed at ale temps simply be a summer ale? Then you'd brew it with ale yeast. I've done a couple and they're probably as close to a lager as I'll get, and going down well in our heatwave. The Artisan Reserve is bottled and being a lager, it'll be a good comparison. I can't lager the bottles, so it may well turn out much like the other two.

Is there something you're looking to get from brewing lager yeast at higher temps, that you can't get with an ale yeast?

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

Isn’t that what they call a steam beer?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Sort of but steam beer is done with a specific yeast and usually contains northern brewer hops. 

[Pezzza]

5 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

Curious - wouldn't a lager brewed at ale temps simply be a summer ale? Then you'd brew it with ale yeast. I've done a couple and they're probably as close to a lager as I'll get, and going down well in our heatwave. The Artisan Reserve is bottled and being a lager, it'll be a good comparison. I can't lager the bottles, so it may well turn out much like the other two.

Is there something you're looking to get from brewing lager yeast at higher temps, that you can't get with an ale yeast?

The answer is Yes.  I want Lager like characteristics in my brew - but am hoping to sneak it through at higher temps because the beautiful yeast is forgiving...

Thanks for the question LR - as it is an interesting one - and I have not jumped to doing this lightly as doing the All Grain Mash etc is quite a bit of work and an investment... so a bit of research and thought went into it.  As above, I mentioned I am a bit schtook with my brew-fridge space as I am trying to crank a few through at year's end. 

So this Yank

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fermentation-temperature-pt-4-lager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

came up with a 10 deg C vs 21 deg C comparison with W34/70 one of my favourite yeasts.  The yeast makers say the yeast top temp range is 22 deg C.  Yank legend claims that the 'warm brew' was relatively hard to tell from the 'cold brew' and did appear to keep most variables constant other than temp.

So I am keen to test the theory that W34/7- legendary Weihenstephaner Lager Yeast will go ok and also NOT throw disgraceful flavour products into the beer at the warmer temp... and that is currently underway.

Now as for Summer Ale and @Otto Von Blotto and @NewBrews's point about Dampfbier [which I kindly learnt about from @porschemad911 John... Dampf is steam auf Deutsch... think we all know what the other word is : )  ] to me such brews are entirely a different matter.  The Dampfbier thing is using a wheat beer yeast to ferment a wort that would normally be done as Lager and at ale/wheat beer temps.  I used the same Wort for an IPA and split and used half with W3068 a great Weissbier yeast... and did them at the same temps... and the difference was staggering.  The Dampfbier really tasted like Weissbier even tho the Grain Bill was Barley dominant... I think due to the significant impact of the yeast. 

So in summary - to me - the influence of the yeast is absolutely amazing... and I am hoping that I can sneak a Lager in at the warmer temp, that tastes like a Lager.  I would have much rather done my 'warm' Lager experiment at 18... but I have to go with what I have in terms of temps at the moment.

As for Lagering bottles of Lager - I really believe my 2 months plus at 2 deg C changed my two AG Lagers.  And for the better.  But in the big scheme of things, they weren't too shabby to begin with. 

And if you are brewing a Coopers Artisan Reserve Clone I would be very interested in knowing what the yeast is as I enjoyed that brew when I could buy it.

Cheers All

BB

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bearded Burbler

[Lab Cat]

2 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

And if you are brewing a Coopers Artisan Reserve Clone I would be very interested in knowing what the yeast is as I enjoyed that brew when I could buy it.

I used W34/70. If it's good enough for Weihenstaphener...

I haven't been able to get a bottle of the commercial Artisan, so won't be able to do that comparison, but it's probably moot. Coopers have changed the DIY recipe and not divulged all the hops.

This is my first lager style brewed with W34, I've done some pils with MJ yeasts and not impressed enough to brew them again - but the summer ales I definitely would, with some hopping tweaks. They're easy summer drinking, which is what I was after, I just didn't expect 2 different recipes to taste so similar.

My thoughts are are I'm not going to get a decent lager or pils unless I Lager the bottles and that's not possible. I'd need another fridge and a big one.

[Pezzza]

1 minute ago, Lab Rat said:

I used W34/70. If it's good enough for Weihenstaphener...

I haven't been able to get a bottle of the commercial Artisan, so won't be able to do that comparison, but it's probably moot. Coopers have changed the DIY recipe and not divulged all the hops.

This is my first lager style brewed with W34, I've done some pils with MJ yeasts and not impressed enough to brew them again - but the summer ales I definitely would, with some hopping tweaks. They're easy summer drinking, which is what I was after, I just didn't expect 2 different recipes to taste so similar.

My thoughts are are I'm not going to get a decent lager or pils unless I Lager the bottles and that's not possible. I'd need another fridge and a big one.

I believe that W34/70 is a great and amazing yeast, and you will get good beer with that yeast if your process is good and you have good ingredients.

You will get a good Lager or Pils if you have a cool ferment with the right water and the right yeast.  My 21 deg C thing with trusty W34/70 is an experiment - hopefully ok - but am not considering making it a standard... guess I should wait and taste... but am a cool temp convert - and 18 deg C is a great temperature.  And if I have brew-fridge space... think I will be brewing cold as a preference every day of the week.

So if you can do cool temp ferment with good yeast - you will generate a good Pils or Lager - @Otto Von Blotto Kelsey surely you are getting good results after say a 3 week process with good temp control and then into the Keg after a cold crash ?  And say drinking well two weeks later?  I guess with bottle ferment you need another 2 weeks and then probably a bit more storage time?

Although I am getting I think improved results from 2 months plus bottle lagering - no doubt - I think if you get everything else right - especially with something like Kelsey's strict brewing protocol - you can get away also with bottles with not having to Lager for 2 months if you get good temp control up front.

I hope that makes sense... am away for work and having a few French squeezed grape ferment juices cos there is no sense buying someone else's beer ; )

[Pezzza]

51 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

My thoughts are are I'm not going to get a decent lager or pils unless I Lager the bottles and that's not possible. I'd need another fridge and a big one.

I guess what I was trying to say above - is that - if you have the right yeast - good ingredients including water - and good temp control in the fermentation process - you will likely get very close to a decent lager or pils - WITHOUT long term lagering.  The lagering then is a value-add.  

[Lab Cat]

34 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

I guess what I was trying to say above - is that - if you have the right yeast - good ingredients including water - and good temp control in the fermentation process - you will likely get very close to a decent lager or pils - WITHOUT long term lagering.  The lagering then is a value-add.  

As good as XXXX or Carlton Draught?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes mine always turn out well, the other factor is pitching a big amount of yeast. You can have a great recipe, do all the right processes etc. but if you don't throw enough yeast in then it's more likely than not gonna turn out badly. I pitch the equivalent of around 4.5 smack packs into my lagers/pilsners, or 2.5-3 dry packets. 

I find with mine that after the fermentation, two week lagering then a week or so in the keg gassing up that they are reasonable, but after another few weeks they definitely improve. Unfortunately there aren't any shortcuts for a good lagering, it just takes time. 

[Beer Baron]

1 hour ago, Lab Rat said:

As good as XXXX or Carlton Draught?

Impossible to be that good........

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yes mine always turn out well, the other factor is pitching a big amount of yeast.

I kept mine to 1kg of LDM, the Artisan recipe is for 1.5kg. I pitched the Euro lager yeast as well as the W34, instead of the 2 x 34/70 in the recipe.

[ChristinaS1]

10 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

Is there something you're looking to get from brewing lager yeast at higher temps, that you can't get with an ale yeast?

34/70 brewed around 21C will likely provided a lower FG and fewer esters than an ale yeast at the same temperature.

My guess is that if you pitched an ale yeast at lager rates and brewed it at 18C it would likely taste similar to 34/70 pitched at ale rates and brewed at 21C. I suspect Jamil Zainasheff double pitches his ales to reduce esters.

Lager yeast don't produce many esters. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited December 3, 2019 by ChristinaS1