Yeast Thread 2021

[MitchBastard]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:24 AM, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Yup she is a true top cropping strain K97. Used to be my go to for a kolsch. Last kolsch I used the koln yeast and sort of liked it a little better. Be interested to know your take on it though once it's done.

Yeah for sure! I definitely like the koln…has great pear and bubblegum esters about it. Just thought I’d expand the horizons. Hopefully for the better. 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

17 hours ago, stquinto said:

 

The other is for an AG Westvleteren 12. It is actually a Chimay yeast, but the grain bill for the Westv is easier, and I have the right amount of dark candi for a 19l brew. I also just got a delivery of Abbey Malt, might try that in one of them.

So a week should be OK ? Fingers crossed...

Thanks for the comments !

Westvleteran use the Westmalle yeast WY3787. For me WY1214 is similar to WY3787 anyway so it won't be a long way different. Most of the differences come from the fermentation temp profile. 

[Tone boy]

10 hours ago, MitchBastard said:

Yeah for sure! I definitely like the koln…has great pear and bubblegum esters about it. Just thought I’d expand the horizons. Hopefully for the better. 

Hey Mitch do you reckon I could brew something similar to a kolsch using Nottingham at say 15 degrees? Or do the esters play a big part in kolsch?

[Shamus O'Sean]

5 hours ago, Tone boy said:

Hey Mitch do you reckon I could brew something similar to a kolsch using Nottingham at say 15 degrees? Or do the esters play a big part in kolsch?

I think Nottingham at 15°C is very neutral and would not get you Kolsch influences.  Kolsch yeast seems a different cat.  Maybe it is the esters.  It is just different to a standard ale or a lager.

[kmar92]

1 minute ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I think Nottingham at 15°C is very neutral and would not get you Kolsch influences.  Kolsch yeast seems a different cat.  Maybe it is the esters.  It is just different to a standard ale or a lager.

I have done a few Kolsch's and have never really been happy with the outcome. It is obviously something that I am doing wrong in my procedures but I have never been able to nail down the problem.

[Pezzza]

19 hours ago, kmar92 said:

I have done a few Kolsch's and have never really been happy with the outcome. It is obviously something that I am doing wrong in my procedures but I have never been able to nail down the problem.

What sort of Temps and what sort of Kölsch Yeast was that KMar  @kmar92

if I may be so bold as to ask ?  ; )

@MitchBastard Mitchie I believe you are a bit of a Kölsch King - what temps and what yeast have you used?

@Greenyinthewestofsydney Greeny I think you too gave me some Kölschy Pointers in the past - and from memory it was to try cooler to begin with like around 15 degC - and I was just gunna be using Lally dry... but have not got to it yet : (

 

This is what Lally say:

In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at 20°C (68°F) LalBrew Köln™ yeast exhibits:

• Fermentation that can be completed in 7 days, a bit slower than most ale strains. This is perfectly characteristic of this strain.
• Medium to High Attenuation and Medium Flocculation
• Neutral to slightly fruity and estery flavor and aroma
• The optimal temperature range for LalBrew Köln™ yeast when producing traditional styles is 12 – 20°C 
• Lag phase can be longer compared to other ale strains, ranging from 24-36 hours

Lag phase, total fermentation time, attenuation and flavor are dependent on pitch rate, yeast handling, fermentation temperature and nutritional quality of the wort.

[kmar92]

@Itinerant Peasant yeah it was Lallemand Köln Kölsch and I haven't looked at my brewing notes but from memory it was fermented at 18°.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

5 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

What sort of Temps and what sort of Kölsch Yeast was that KMar  @kmar92

if I may be so bold as to ask ?  ; )

@MitchBastard Mitchie I believe you are a bit of a Kölsch King - what temps and what yeast have you used?

@Greenyinthewestofsydney Greeny I think you too gave me some Kölschy Pointers in the past - and from memory it was to try cooler to begin with like around 15 degC - and I was just gunna be using Lally dry... but have not got to it yet : (

 

This is what Lally say:

In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at 20°C (68°F) LalBrew Köln™ yeast exhibits:

• Fermentation that can be completed in 7 days, a bit slower than most ale strains. This is perfectly characteristic of this strain.
• Medium to High Attenuation and Medium Flocculation
• Neutral to slightly fruity and estery flavor and aroma
• The optimal temperature range for LalBrew Köln™ yeast when producing traditional styles is 12 – 20°C 
• Lag phase can be longer compared to other ale strains, ranging from 24-36 hours

Lag phase, total fermentation time, attenuation and flavor are dependent on pitch rate, yeast handling, fermentation temperature and nutritional quality of the wort.

Yeah I always do mine with a 2L starter and at 15c till about 6 points away from FG then raise to about 18. You want to be going on the cool side for a nice kolsch IMO. Didn't make one this summer but then again only making about half the batches I used to do with covid and trying to keep the weight down.

[Tone boy]

I think I’m going to brew it with Nottingham anyway, understanding that it won’t be a kolsch. It will be a neutral ale brewed cool, with noble hops and no specialty malts that wouldn’t normally be in a kolsch. It won’t have any kolschy esters though…
I need to get stocks up, Notto is on hand, and it’ll be an interesting experiment. I’ll post it up on the brew day thread…

Next time I’m at my LHBS I’ll jag a lallemand koln yeast to compare the real deal.

Cheers for your replies and help everyone. 

Happy weekend
 

[MitchBastard]

15 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

What sort of Temps and what sort of Kölsch Yeast was that KMar  @kmar92

if I may be so bold as to ask ?  ; )

@MitchBastard Mitchie I believe you are a bit of a Kölsch King - what temps and what yeast have you used?

@Greenyinthewestofsydney Greeny I think you too gave me some Kölschy Pointers in the past - and from memory it was to try cooler to begin with like around 15 degC - and I was just gunna be using Lally dry... but have not got to it yet : (

 

This is what Lally say:

In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at 20°C (68°F) LalBrew Köln™ yeast exhibits:

• Fermentation that can be completed in 7 days, a bit slower than most ale strains. This is perfectly characteristic of this strain.
• Medium to High Attenuation and Medium Flocculation
• Neutral to slightly fruity and estery flavor and aroma
• The optimal temperature range for LalBrew Köln™ yeast when producing traditional styles is 12 – 20°C 
• Lag phase can be longer compared to other ale strains, ranging from 24-36 hours

Lag phase, total fermentation time, attenuation and flavor are dependent on pitch rate, yeast handling, fermentation temperature and nutritional quality of the wort.

You’re correct m8 I love a good kolschy boi. Got one in the fv as we speak. 
in the past I’ve used koln by lallemand and ran a 2L starter and choofed it at 16deg. 
 

this time round I’ve used the K97 by saf. Same size starter but bumped it up a half a degree this time to 16.5. The specs for that yeast are 12-25 deg which from memory is a lot broader than the koln. 
 

pils, wheat and Vienna for the beer seeds and hally mit giving it some ibus.

[Aussiekraut]

I suppose when I make a 2l yeast starter, I brew with 2l less water to start with, so I don't dilute the wort. Or is there enough malt in the starter to make up for the extra 2l of water? If so, what does it do to the rest of the finished product? It would have to have an impact as it changes the original grain bill and the hops would be diluted as well.

That's something that always bugged me a little, so I never make a starter.

 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

18 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

I suppose when I make a 2l yeast starter, I brew with 2l less water to start with, so I don't dilute the wort. Or is there enough malt in the starter to make up for the extra 2l of water? If so, what does it do to the rest of the finished product? It would have to have an impact as it changes the original grain bill and the hops would be diluted as well.

That's something that always bugged me a little, so I never make a starter.

 

Thats if you add the whole starter directly to the wort. Most people make it a few days in advance with dry malt and decant off the unhopped beer so leaving only the yeast to pitch. The other way I do it sometimes if I no chill is to decant the starter volume off the main batch into my flask just before I put it into the cube. Cool it down in the sink and then pitch my yeast into the flask so the starter is being made from the final beer wort. Put that in the temp controlled fridge with the cube. 24 hours later pitch the cube into the fermenter and then add the whole starter. Most yeasts are almost at the top of the growth curve in 24hrs.

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, MitchBastard said:

pils, wheat and Vienna for the beer seeds and hally mit giving it some ibus.

Blaaaardy perfect Mitchie - you are the Braumeister General (not sure how many of ye good Brewers remember the position in the ol' Aussie General Post Offices (GPO) of the bossman Postmaster General )

So just checking help please @MitchBastard MB?

Probs not too much Vienna and Wheat - say something like 10-20% of Total and then Pilly the rest?

And just HT Mit early @60 say 20-30g in 20 ish Litre brew?

[Pezzza]

46 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

That's something that always bugged me a little, so I never make a starter.

 

17 minutes ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Thats if you add the whole starter directly to the wort.

 

Good discussion @Aussiekraut AK and @Greenyinthewestofsydney Greeny!

I have used Starters in the past and have done @Greenyinthewestofsydney Greeny 'best practice' with chill and decant off the Starter 'Beer' prior to pitch -- as well as just dump the lot in Holus Bolus...  And even better is Greeny's chill the Wort and do the Starter in exactly that specific Wort Config so the Yeasties already know what they are up for... that is the biz. 

I have not done a controlled experiment and thereby comparison to see whether dumping in too much Starter 'Beer' makes any impact nor whether such impact may be detrimental to the final good beer product outcome. 

However, my take would be that it has little impact and works just fine to pop the lot in.

 

For those of us also who do the ol' "Dirty Brew" where you just keg-on-up a beer just done and then Backfill with a new Wort - there is then also a bit of 'Old Beer' lying in the bottom of the FV... and again - I don't believe that this has had any negative impact on my beer outcomes - but I have not done a controlled experiment comparison.  @Red devil 44 Reddler - you there? - I think you've done some backfill beers not that long ago - and were happy with those mate?

So I might be completely wrong - but my gut feel is that tossing in a good Starter Holus Bolus - or doing a Backfill in controlled hygienic conditions over some 'Old Beer' sitting on the Yeast Cake - has nothing but a positive impact on the final outcome with a good and rapid-positive start for the Yeasty Boys. 

That said - after more recent discourse on this site - I have become more of a "Sprinkler" and I just sprinkle in the dry yeast directly - and with the AG pure rainwater Wort the Yeasties seem to fire up quite smartly... unless I am doing a Backfill Brew and then I pull out after three brews in a row: Sprinkle 1 - Backfill 2 - Backfill 3 and then park up.

Cheers for now and Good Brewing All : )

[MitchBastard]

7 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I suppose when I make a 2l yeast starter, I brew with 2l less water to start with, so I don't dilute the wort. Or is there enough malt in the starter to make up for the extra 2l of water? If so, what does it do to the rest of the finished product? It would have to have an impact as it changes the original grain bill and the hops would be diluted as well.

That's something that always bugged me a little, so I never make a starter.

 

I havnt found that it makes much difference in terms of dilution. If I’m making a 23ltr batch I’ll just fill to 21 and add the whole starter if I havnt had time to let the starter settle and decant. I’ve done it both ways, with the same beer multiple times. No major issues. You’ll lose maybe 2 points by adding the whole starter. That’s never really bothered me given that I’ll always be up by 2-3 points. The starter contains alcohol so your adding some back in. Plus as an added bonus, when ever I use a starter which is always, I find that my FG is always lower than predicted….. 

what I really like about starters are that they drop your ph. So if your having issues with your wort ph being a bit high after the boil, the starter will drop er down a bit more to where it should be. This is particularly good for lagers and pilsners where you’d want your starting pH to be around 5 or 5.1 for a 4 or 4.1 finish. 

[MitchBastard]

6 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

Blaaaardy perfect Mitchie - you are the Braumeister General (not sure how many of ye good Brewers remember the position in the ol' Aussie General Post Offices (GPO) of the bossman Postmaster General )

So just checking help please @MitchBastard MB?

Probs not too much Vienna and Wheat - say something like 10-20% of Total and then Pilly the rest?

And just HT Mit early @60 say 20-30g in 20 ish Litre brew?

Hahaha cheers mate. 
yeah not too heavy handed with the Vienna and wheat. From mems i do slightly more Vienna than wheat. Maybe 750g Vienna, 500g wheat and 3kg pils. Just a smidge to give it some body and flavour. 
 

I’ll aim for 27ibu spread over 60/30/15

[Pezzza]

Talking of Yeast - Dry Yeast - Stored Well - under Refrigeration - How far out of Date has any of you Brewers gone with a pack and it has been fine?

I am going to try one now that is one year out of date - but been in the Fridge the whole time...

Will do a Starter so guess I should have some idea whether still alive.

My gut feel is that it will be fine.... mmm.... or maybe that is just Wishful Thinking?

Any feedback out there regards well stored but old dry pack Yeasty Boys all ye Brewers?

Prior experience or thoughts on the matter?

 

[stquinto]

I've been making beers that use Wyeast specialty Belgians, like 1214 for a Chimay and 1388 for a Duvel. TBH I'm more than disappointed with Wyeast: most of the time nothing happens when I slap them to activate: one I had to slap so hard it bust the pack. I've just put down a Duvel clone with a non-activated 1388 and a starter I made a week before (my fault for waiting)  but didn't seem active at all. If nothing happens with this I'll just chuck in a MJ41 - that worked a treat last time, and half the price of the Wyeast.

Might give White yeast a go instead 

[kmar92]

1 hour ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

Talking of Yeast - Dry Yeast - Stored Well - under Refrigeration - How far out of Date has any of you Brewers gone with a pack and it has been fine?

I am going to try one now that is one year out of date - but been in the Fridge the whole time...

Will do a Starter so guess I should have some idea whether still alive.

My gut feel is that it will be fine.... mmm.... or maybe that is just Wishful Thinking?

Any feedback out there regards well stored but old dry pack Yeasty Boys all ye Brewers?

Prior experience or thoughts on the matter?

 

I have done dry yeasts that are over 12 months out of date, but stored the whole time in the fridge. When I use out of date yeast I always do a starter and all the ones that I have done with this method have been fine. The starter has always fired up and the ferment has also gone well. I think that so long as they are stored in a fridge they would have a considerably longer use by date than that shown on the packet. Anyway a starter will let you see the vitality of the yeast.

[Shamus O'Sean]

3 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

Talking of Yeast - Dry Yeast - Stored Well - under Refrigeration - How far out of Date has any of you Brewers gone with a pack and it has been fine?

I am going to try one now that is one year out of date - but been in the Fridge the whole time...

Will do a Starter so guess I should have some idea whether still alive.

My gut feel is that it will be fine.... mmm.... or maybe that is just Wishful Thinking?

Any feedback out there regards well stored but old dry pack Yeasty Boys all ye Brewers?

Prior experience or thoughts on the matter?

 

Same as Kmar92, I have used yeast 12 months out of date.  WB-06 and US-05.  Did starters with both of them.  Probably did not have to because the starters took off like fresh yeast.  And when they were pitched, they did fine.

[stquinto]

General question to throw out there to all you yeast-heads: how long can you keep trub from the bottom of the last brew ? I have several different collections (forgot to label them, hope my memory doesn't go all unnecessary on me...) but wondered how long they would still be good for (in the fridge, obvs)

Another one, similar to @Shamus O'Sean's: how long pas the use-by date would you still pitch a Wyeast pouch ?

Cheers!

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

31 minutes ago, stquinto said:

General question to throw out there to all you yeast-heads: how long can you keep trub from the bottom of the last brew ? I have several different collections (forgot to label them, hope my memory doesn't go all unnecessary on me...) but wondered how long they would still be good for (in the fridge, obvs)

Another one, similar to @Shamus O'Sean's: how long pas the use-by date would you still pitch a Wyeast pouch ?

Cheers!

1st part. Depends. I have used a slurry after 2 months and it was fine and one at 4 weeks which basically never started and had to run to the LHBS and get yeast. It's so variable I won't use one now beyond 3 weeks without making a starter with it. Unhopped low ABV starter will last longer that a highly hopped high ABV one. 

I always make a starter out of a pouch. Depends on how it was stored. If it has sat out of the fridge it may have next to no viability even though it is in date.

That's my 2 cents

[stquinto]

1 hour ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

1st part. Depends. I have used a slurry after 2 months and it was fine and one at 4 weeks which basically never started and had to run to the LHBS and get yeast. It's so variable I won't use one now beyond 3 weeks without making a starter with it. Unhopped low ABV starter will last longer that a highly hopped high ABV one. 

I always make a starter out of a pouch. Depends on how it was stored. If it has sat out of the fridge it may have next to no viability even though it is in date.

That's my 2 cents

Cheers mate, appreciate the 2 cents.

As I mentioned elsewhere I haven't had much luck with Wyeast, either using their "mini starter" setup, or by making a starter in itself. Coopers starters on the other hand have worked really well for me.

I'm off on a road trip to the (not so Local) HBS tomorrw to pick up some new kit, and also some yeasts, including White Labs.

The Brettanomyces bruxellensis is back in stock so I'll be giving that a go in the secondary fermentation of an Orval. You mentioned earlier to watch out for that strain - what did you mean ? Contaminating the FV ?

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

10 hours ago, stquinto said:

 

The Brettanomyces bruxellensis is back in stock so I'll be giving that a go in the secondary fermentation of an Orval. You mentioned earlier to watch out for that strain - what did you mean ? Contaminating the FV ?

Just depends on how you are going to use it mate. Orval dose at bottling time with it. If the primary finishes at 1.010 then the Brett will likely eat all of the remaining sugars over time. Might take a fair few months as brett works slow but eventually they will get there. So that's 10 points of sugar which is roughly 5.0 vol of carbonation. That's what level of carbonation orval is at so it's fine as long as your using there mini tank like bottles. Less rated bottles will likely fail at that level.

As far as contaminating an FV. Yes I would keep brettanomyces used equipment separate from normal yeast. Chances of contaminating the fermenter are high.

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, stquinto said:

General question to throw out there to all you yeast-heads: how long can you keep trub from the bottom of the last brew ? I have several different collections (forgot to label them, hope my memory doesn't go all unnecessary on me...) but wondered how long they would still be good for (in the fridge, obvs)

Another one, similar to @Shamus O'Sean's: how long pas the use-by date would you still pitch a Wyeast pouch ?

Cheers!

I went back through my notes.  It looks like the longest I waited before using harvested trub was about 6 weeks.  Most of the time it was about 4 weeks.  I have fermented with harvested trub about a dozen times and they have been successful ferments.  I never did starters with them.  Just pitched straight in from the Mason jar.

Regarding your second query, perhaps this video could shed some light on it: