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Yeast Thread 2021


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3 hours ago, jamiek86 said:

Fresh harvested slurry of M76 Bavarian lager yeast looked good going into keg forgot give it taste hope comes out how I hope it should. @Aussiekraut I have heard up until 3 months is fine if kept in fridge. If you were concerned you could make a starter from the slurry or even pitch the whole thing plus only one packet?

If you're pitching that amount I wouldn't bother with extra. Maybe just pour off the liquid when it's about to be used - if it's months later just make a starter to make sure it's viable and pitch.

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1 minute ago, Journeyman said:

If you're pitching that amount I wouldn't bother with extra. Maybe just pour off the liquid when it's about to be used - if it's months later just make a starter to make sure it's viable and pitch.

I'm not sure how much slurry aussie kraut would use I was answering his question at the same time as putting up pic of how much slurry I collected. He said he only wants to make lagers every 3 months and was worried it would be no good.

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On 8/3/2021 at 10:31 PM, iBooz2 said:

Hey Greeny.  So are you going to send some of your yeast samples somewhere and get then classified?  Start Licencing talks with Chris White? 👍

If I get near to Canberra one day will drop into the National Library and have a look at this historical record from 1917.

Grove Johnson did exactly what you did but with Eucalyptus (I think) and created the Melbourne Ale yeast.   @MitchBastard did you ever have any success getting something viable out of your old vial of WLP059 Melbourne Ale Yeast a year or so back?

 

Haha I was holding that vial of yeast in my hand about 3 nights ago looking at it thinking…..I really should try and get this thing fired up…..

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So I have bottled the wattle yeast beer. It actually flocculated pretty well from only a 3 day cold crash. SG read 1.010 at 6 degrees which is 1.009 at a normal 20 so it didn't super attenuate. Ph of 4.2 which is normal for beer as well. Smell is just like a saison and the sample taste is as well though slightly funkier than any saison I have made or tasted. More than a Dupont brewed saison but not much more. I think this will be fairly drinkable but will post up a critique when one carbs up.

I am super excited to use this in a mixed fermentation. I think with some brettanomyces and lactobacillus it will create something really really nice.

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2 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

I am super excited to use this in a mixed fermentation. I think with some brettanomyces and lactobacillus it will create something really really nice.

Greeny you are truly the Yeast King!!! 🙂

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9 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

So I have bottled the wattle yeast beer. It actually flocculated pretty well from only a 3 day cold crash. SG read 1.010 at 6 degrees which is 1.009 at a normal 20 so it didn't super attenuate. Ph of 4.2 which is normal for beer as well. Smell is just like a saison and the sample taste is as well though slightly funkier than any saison I have made or tasted. More than a Dupont brewed saison but not much more. I think this will be fairly drinkable but will post up a critique when one carbs up.

I am super excited to use this in a mixed fermentation. I think with some brettanomyces and lactobacillus it will create something really really nice.

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To me, you are no longer Greeny, you are now beer‘s version of Bush tucker man and you drive a land drover! (Except for when you’ve had Bush beer of course) Maybe next time a grass tree lager or a white gum ale?

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On 8/5/2021 at 8:20 AM, Aussiekraut said:

How long do you guys keep the harvested yeast? 

I don't really want to get into the science of cultivating yeast and that sort of thing but I'd like to reduce my yeast cost a little. A pack of Notty is something like $6.50 and is use a fair bit of it. I'm currently brewing a Munich Helles, which was made with 2 packs of W34/70 at a combined cost of something like 13 or 14 bucks. I don't plan on brewing many lagers, mainly for organisational reasons (and because I am a little lagered out) but maybe 3 or 4 batches a year are on the cards, now that I can actually lager. Looking around the net, answers range from no more than 2 weeks to 18 months, although I suspect the latter was washed, rinsed and pampered. All I want to do is keep some slurry, make a starter when I need it and then re-harvest after the ferment is done. If I can get three or four brews out of it, it would significantly reduce the spendings on yeast. It all adds up to a few hundred dollars a year.

Also, on the topic of starters. I read people make three and four litre starters. Do you brew with such a huge starter in mind, so you don't thin out the beer? Or do you tip most of it out and just use what's set on the bottom of the container?

I could not help myself.  I had to science this a bit.  Based on BrewFather and Brewer's Friend calculators.

So for 23 litres of a typical lager with an OG of say 1.045 you need approximately 390 billion yeast cells.  This is at a pitch rate of 1.5 million cells/ml/degree Plato.

Some data:

  • If brewing these every 3 months = 12 weeks =  84 days, the yeast viability is about 40%
  • If brewing these every 4 months = 16 weeks = 112 days, the yeast viability is about 20%

Therefore, if brewing at 3 monthly intervals, you need 390/0.4 = 975 bil yeast cells from your slurry harvest.

Using @Greeny1525229549's 1.5 bil cells per ml of slurry, you need 650ml of slurry from your previous brew.  This is compacted, cold crashed slurry, not stirred up with remaining beer slurry.  Probably do-able.

Next, if brewing at 4 monthly intervals, you need 390/0.2 = 1,950 bil yeast cells from your slurry harvest.

Using Greeny's 1.5 bil cells per ml of slurry, you need 1300ml of slurry from your previous brew.  This is compacted, cold crashed slurry, not stirred up with remaining beer slurry.  Probably not do-able.

Alternatively, you could take your 4 month old slurry and do a 1.5 litre starter with 150g of Light Dry Malt with a growth factor of about 2.  This would get you the 390 bil yeast cells you are after.  Any dead yeast cells would be nutrient for the healthy yeast.

Short answer, if brewing every 3 months, as long as you collect about 650 ml of slurry, you will be good.  If brewing every 4 months, you should do a 1.5 litre starter with the 650ml of slurry you collect.

I hope this helps.

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I don't think the viability drops as quickly as the calculators suggest it does, after having done my own experiments with counting cells over a period of about 45 days the viability of a budvar sample at the end of it was still over 80%, being stored under the same conditions that I normally store my harvested yeast. It dropped a few percent from about 98 on the second or third day over a few days but after that the rate of dropoff slowed quite a bit for the rest of that 45 days. 

In relation to the starter sizes, yes I do make 3-3.5 litre ones for lagers based on the batch wort OG, the batch size is usually the same. I steal 800mL into a mason jar to reuse next time, and the rest is chilled overnight or a couple of days to settle the yeast then I pour most of it out and swirl up the rest to pitch it. Ales are usually about 2 litres, same process of course. I can keep strains going for a couple of years with this method, and I only keep 3 strains so they get regular enough use that they don't die. 

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1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't think the viability drops as quickly as the calculators suggest it does, after having done my own experiments with counting cells over a period of about 45 days the viability of a budvar sample at the end of it was still over 80%, being stored under the same conditions that I normally store my harvested yeast. It dropped a few percent from about 98 on the second or third day over a few days but after that the rate of dropoff slowed quite a bit for the rest of that 45 days. 

In relation to the starter sizes, yes I do make 3-3.5 litre ones for lagers based on the batch wort OG, the batch size is usually the same. I steal 800mL into a mason jar to reuse next time, and the rest is chilled overnight or a couple of days to settle the yeast then I pour most of it out and swirl up the rest to pitch it. Ales are usually about 2 litres, same process of course. I can keep strains going for a couple of years with this method, and I only keep 3 strains so they get regular enough use that they don't die. 

I agree with you for harvested starters under 2%ish ABV. They do hold viability quite well in my experience but slurry is a totally different story. It's all guess work obviously but colour of the yeast is about as good a guide as you get. Some of the higher ABV slurries I have stored have been gunmetal grey by the 3 month mark. A sure a sign as you get without a microscope that viability is nearing zero. Lately I have been pouring boiled and cooled water into the slurry to dilute the ABV. Seems to be working quite well to extend the viability.

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Any of you Gun Brewers out there used Lally London Ale Yeast?

Notes advise it does not ferment out Maltotriose so allows that slight Brit Ale sweetness... seems to have parked at about 1013 down from 1059... thoughts all re whether I have finally hit FG?

image.thumb.png.0ed3e2342c3f761ab8a52da39522ecc0.png--

 

 

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4 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

I agree with you for harvested starters under 2%ish ABV. They do hold viability quite well in my experience but slurry is a totally different story. It's all guess work obviously but colour of the yeast is about as good a guide as you get. Some of the higher ABV slurries I have stored have been gunmetal grey by the 3 month mark. A sure a sign as you get without a microscope that viability is nearing zero. Lately I have been pouring boiled and cooled water into the slurry to dilute the ABV. Seems to be working quite well to extend the viability.

That makes sense. The sample I was testing in my experiment was from a starter that just used the usual 100g/L dry malt to water ratio. I'd tipped out the majority of the wort on top once it settled out just to make it easier to get samples, but otherwise just stored in the fridge in a jar like I always do with the harvested yeast. I used trypan blue to stain the samples as apparently it's more accurate than methylene blue. Obviously it was a reasonably crude method compared to a proper lab would do but I was able to at least count the blue and white cells. I've still got the photos of them somewhere. 

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6 hours ago, Graubart said:

Any of you Gun Brewers out there used Lally London Ale Yeast?

Notes advise it does not ferment out Maltotriose so allows that slight Brit Ale sweetness... seems to have parked at about 1013 down from 1059... thoughts all re whether I have finally hit FG?

image.thumb.png.0ed3e2342c3f761ab8a52da39522ecc0.png--

 

 

Hey Graubster. Not a gun, but hopefully can help…

Yes I have used London in my ESB and I reckon it’s great. Mine came down to 1.016 from 1.049. It makes sense it would finish a little bit higher seeing it doesn’t ferment maltotriose (which is apparently about 10% of your average malt wort). Mine stayed at 1.016 for 4 days, and then I CC’d. 
It turned out great. I was worried it would be too sweet but it’s not, just nice and malty with some extra hops in there too!

I reckon you’ve hit FG man 👍👍

Happy to post up the recipe if that helps…

Cheers

Tone

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3 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Hey Graubster. Not a gun, but hopefully can help…

Blllllllaaaardy Beutron Toner!!!

Thanks mate - that is golden information!  That is just what I needed... knowing another Brewer had used the ol dry London Lally and ended up a little higher FG like that was just what I wanted to hear - thanks v much mate! 

Oki doki...  so that concludes nicely for me mate... I shall chill down now and then backfill with hopefully a Theaksty ol Pec Clone thanks to @stquinto the Saint...  who sent us a copy of the book page... might throw in some Veloria and Maris Otter will see how I go...  think I have got some EKG lounging around I can find in the freezer ; )  The below is a good starter to point in the right direction ; )

Your thoughts @Tone boy Toner mate - or any other of ye Brewskis out there on the BBJ (beautiful brewing journey) - thoughts on a TOP clone?

 

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Great stuff @Graubart !! So happy to help after all the advice you have given me over the BBJ. 
Good idea to reuse the yeast again. I used EKG in my ESB effort and I really like it so I think it would be a good choice if you don’t have those exact hops. 
I fermented mine at 20 degrees because I wanted those English type esters. 
My only other thought is your recipe says “crystal “ malt - I would probably lean towards light or medium crystal and avoid dark crystal. I think you will get the darker flavours from the chocolate malt anyway. 
Looks like a pretty straight forward recipe. 
 

I fully expect to see a fence photo in a few weeks time! Hope it’s a ripper for you.

 

cheers man 🍻✌️

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15 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

My only other thought is your recipe says “crystal “ malt - I would probably lean towards light or medium crystal and avoid dark crystal. I think you will get the darker flavours from the chocolate malt anyway. 

Haha you are a champion Toner... great stuff.... probs be a good few weeks ahaha but will do me best... it is next on the Brewery list.

Mate I agree big time w light or med... otherwise will be too dark... hahaha argh too mate I think I only have medium X... so that sounds good.

Haha from the Primary School Playground... "made me look yer dirty chook haha" - you encouraged me to check @Tone boy Toner and looking good... got some Medium X yep and some Choc and will see how I go with the rest... probs Voyager Compass and maybe some Veloria with a bit of Maris Otter maybe? (edit - only saw your second messagere MO just now - rightio - I might crank up the MO a bit then - sounds good - ta)

Not too many more excuses now.... there is some EKG in the Freezer... not got all the other festive hops but EKG should do I think ; )

And think I will stick at me standard 18 ish with a bit of a raise at the end... 🤔

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And apologies all the Site Thread Experts... this probs is on the wrong thread... but that is where the T.O.P. convo started 😬

Edited by Graubart
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3 hours ago, Graubart said:

Blllllllaaaardy Beutron Toner!!!

Thanks mate - that is golden information!  That is just what I needed... knowing another Brewer had used the ol dry London Lally and ended up a little higher FG like that was just what I wanted to hear - thanks v much mate! 

Oki doki...  so that concludes nicely for me mate... I shall chill down now and then backfill with hopefully a Theaksty ol Pec Clone thanks to @stquinto the Saint...  who sent us a copy of the book page... might throw in some Veloria and Maris Otter will see how I go...  think I have got some EKG lounging around I can find in the freezer ; )  The below is a good starter to point in the right direction ; )

Your thoughts @Tone boy Toner mate - or any other of ye Brewskis out there on the BBJ (beautiful brewing journey) - thoughts on a TOP clone?

 

image.thumb.png.21997bc52211a624852fb9fec36e1815.png

@Graubart mate, I've done a Tim Taylor's Landlord and an Old Speckled Hen - a good cuppla months old now. There has been a massive hop fade from the Landlord (particularly), which is a bit disappointing. Proper Landlord (from years ago, when I had it on draft) had a strong grapefruit tang from whatever hops they were using.

When I do it again (and I will, especially once I get my kegging up and running), I will either up the hops or do a hop tea a few days into the brew.

See what you brewmeisters out there think, but if my Landlord experience is anything to go by, it could do with some extra hops. 

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Hi all,

I hope I'm asking these questions in the correct thread.

I put down a Cerveza 10 days ago with BE2. I used US05 instead of the tin yeast. The OG was 1038 and temp 18° and after 10 days the SG is only around 1030. I checked it twice as was expecting around 1010. The Kraussen looks good so not sure what's going on.

Any ideas?

... also second question. 

I put on a Coopers Hazy IPA but didn't realise I didn't have any dry Malt in cupboard so I used 1kg BE3 instead. The OG was 1082! Which seemed high to me as the previous using 1kg dry Malt was only 1064.. I then used Voss Kveik yeast and it sat at about 30° for 9 days.

FG was 1016 which seems right, but the sample was very sweet and dry and bubbly like a champagne. Completely different to my previous coopers Hazy.

Would this be because of the yeast or The BE3 substitute? From what I read the Voss Kviek is supposed to be a good sub for East Coast yeast..?

I have two hydrometers so always check twice, so I don't think the readings are wrong..?

Thanks all.

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6 minutes ago, Titans19 said:

Hi all,

I hope I'm asking these questions in the correct thread.

I put down a Cerveza 10 days ago with BE2. I used US05 instead of the tin yeast. The OG was 1038 and temp 18° and after 10 days the SG is only around 1030. I checked it twice as was expecting around 1010. The Kraussen looks good so not sure what's going on.

Any ideas?

Personally I would leave it for a few more days, try another reading in 2 days. It should go down closer to the mark.

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39 minutes ago, Titans19 said:

I put down a Cerveza 10 days ago with BE2. I used US05 instead of the tin yeast. The OG was 1038 and temp 18° and after 10 days the SG is only around 1030. I checked it twice as was expecting around 1010. The Kraussen looks good so not sure what's going on.

The US-05 is a well know slow starter yeast and may take 2 days to get going but after 10 days and its only down to 1.030 then maybe check your temp is set correct.  US-05 needs to be between 15 - 20 C so after checking wort temp (thermometer into sample tube itself if possible) bump the temp up to 20 C which you really should be doing at the end of ferment anyway.  See if SG drops further after a couple of days at 20 C.

Pitching rates for US-05 is 0.5 g/l so one sachet would have been fine for your gravity batch.

Edited by iBooz2
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On 8/9/2021 at 1:28 PM, Graubart said:

Any of you Gun Brewers out there used Lally London Ale Yeast?

Notes advise it does not ferment out Maltotriose so allows that slight Brit Ale sweetness... seems to have parked at about 1013 down from 1059... thoughts all re whether I have finally hit FG?

Have not used this strain Graubart so cannot comment on the yeast but was wondering what temps did you mash this batch at as that can have an effect of your FG.  Do you run any brewing software to see what it predicts the FG will be?

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4 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Have not used this strain Graubart so cannot comment on the yeast but was wondering what temps did you mash this batch at as that can have an effect of your FG.  Do you run any brewing software to see what it predicts the FG will be?

Yeah

Nah 🙂

Do you have that advert in Vic? 🤔

Seems it just a point or two due to Maltotriose... and @Tone boy Toner has had similar experience w Londy Lally. 

Think all is good - my only current concern is that it seems Londy Lally is a poor flocculator so I am gunna hafta chill chill chill 🙂

 

image.thumb.png.da6055912614de1f44544769388f37d3.png

Edited by Graubart
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