New All Grain setup

[iBooz2]

At last my AG gear is about to arrive after many months on back order and I cannot wait to get it all set-up properly.  I have a couple of K&K's in my FV's to finish off and keg so no hurry to do a AG batch but will be asking lots of questions of AG brewers on the forum to get some initial guidance.  The main unit is the 70 L brew in a basket system from CP and a pump, chiller from elsewhere.  Scored myself another two new kegs so its just a matter of finding a couple of good AG beginners recipes so I can get this new system and the technique down pat.  Any suggestions most welcome.

After 40 K&K batches over the last 10 months I am looking forward to making double batches so I can do 2 x 23 L side by side compares with a single recipe change so I can narrow down an AG favourite.  Will still do K&K as I have a couple of recipes I brew every second brew which I like very much and I also like the simplicity of K&K.

Then again if I can get a couple of ripper brews from the AG factory then so be it.

Cheers - AL

 

[Aussiekraut]

59 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

At last my AG gear is about to arrive after many months on back order and I cannot wait to get it all set-up properly.  I have a couple of K&K's in my FV's to finish off and keg so no hurry to do a AG batch but will be asking lots of questions of AG brewers on the forum to get some initial guidance.  The main unit is the 70 L brew in a basket system from CP and a pump, chiller from elsewhere.  Scored myself another two new kegs so its just a matter of finding a couple of good AG beginners recipes so I can get this new system and the technique down pat.  Any suggestions most welcome.

After 40 K&K batches over the last 10 months I am looking forward to making double batches so I can do 2 x 23 L side by side compares with a single recipe change so I can narrow down an AG favourite.  Will still do K&K as I have a couple of recipes I brew every second brew which I like very much and I also like the simplicity of K&K.

Then again if I can get a couple of ripper brews from the AG factory then so be it.

Cheers - AL

 

70l? That's my next system  

I always said that when I start AG, I'll still make some kits 'n' bits batches but you know what? I never did. I made one batch of a beer I used to like a while ago to use up a leftover kit and a can of malt. I didn't like the beer and gave it away. AG spoils you. Not that you can't make a bad AG beer or a fabulous extract/kit beer mind you. But I find my AG brews so much better than any kit I ever made. Then again, maybe I'm just full of it  

Welcome to the wonderful world of AG beers. It's more work but well worth it imho. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

Congratulations @iBooz2. CP has some solid recipes on their site. I have tried a few of them and haven't struck a bad one yet.

I reckon just following instructions on one of those while you get used to the new equipment could be a good way to go. 

[Marty_G]

I would also try to grab a cheep 20 litre urn from somewhere and use as a HLT for you coil so you can have that to keep the temp controlled on the mash. This is my set up which is a 70L BIAB. You will need a pulley set up to lift the basket. I also do doubles so I get 44 litres of wort for my fermentation.  The coil is used as a HERMES coils during the mash and the wort is recirculated back onto the top of the grain bed.  It is put into the HLT which is set at the mash temp with an InkBird.  Gee I hope makes sense.  My urn cost $20

[iBooz2]

@Aussiekraut Thanks AK, yep I realize it will be more work and cleanup a bugger but hopefully it will pay off in some great beers. Looking forward to getting the first few batches done so I can work out a best practice process to minimize the work rate on brew day.

@Popo yeah mate have been doing a bit of cruising around looking for some ideas and I do like the look of a few CP recipes.  I think it will take some brews before I get a profile of my new gear (say beer smith type profile) so I can work from that base and move forward.  gotta work out water quantities etc. etc. so its all fun and part of it.

@MartyG1525230263 Also thanks for those pics and will keep a look out for a cheap urn, in the meantime will just used a 20 litre Big-W pot if I have to sparge.  I have ordered and heap of fittings, hoses etc. along with my pump but no doubt I would have ordered 4 x too many of the wrong ones and 2 x too less of the ones I require to get a working system.  I have, like you, gone with the cam locks so it will all be modular. 

I do like your little trolley set-up and maybe I will have to get out my TIG welder and do something similar in SS.  BUT - I would not be mounting a power outlet as you have done face up as it is illegal to mount them this way.  Plus they have to be a certain distance away from a splash-able area.  Check the Australian Standards if you can.  You would have been better off using a power board (one that has a high IP rating) cabled tied to the top rack thingy so no moisture or spills can get into the power outlets.   Also as it is hard wired you would need to have a separate earth connector wire from the back of your GPO's to the metal of your trolley just in case an insulation breaks down or moisture ingress makes the whole thing live, 240 V AC or (half live 120 V AC in the case of an open earth or high resistance earth).  Please get it checked and done by a licensed sparky as I would hate to hear that your lovely wife has become a widower on a brew day in the future.  Just saying mate, please get it checked and at least run it off an RCD protected extension lead or power outlet AND test it protects.

Anyway I look forward to all my other bits arriving so I can play AG brewer soon.  The main stuff all arrived today and its itching to be tried out.  I must say a big thank you to @Bearded Burbler for putting me onto this set-up, it looks a great bit of kit and very happy so far with the quality.

Cheers - AL

[Marty_G]

9 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

I would not be mounting a power outlet as you have done face up as it is illegal to mount them this way. 

Thanks for the concern. That power outlet was removed after I did the 1st brew. Didn't take long to figure out it was not a good spot for it.  Also when the son who is a sparky saw it he freaked out.   I now just use a power board. 

[Pezzza]

14 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Anyway I look forward to all my other bits arriving so I can play AG brewer soon.  The main stuff all arrived today and its itching to be tried out.  I must say a big thank you to @Bearded Burbler for putting me onto this set-up, it looks a great bit of kit and very happy so far with the quality.

Cheers - AL

Cheers Al - and I wouldn't worry that much about megasparge to begin with mate... I just washed a bit of 65 deg water through out of the jug a few times... 

Glad I could help - might need your help in working out how to daytrade sensibly another day hahaha!?!

I wish you good AG Brewing mate!

And I say thank you to @Ben 10 Benny who put me onto CPB in the first place - and many other brewers like @Otto Von Blotto Kelsey who helped in me AG project development... not forgetting loadsa other festive brewers not mentioned who helped along the way!!!

[iBooz2]

Well guys the SS pump and hoses, cam locks and all other bits and pieces arrived last week, only missing the coiling coil and the compression connectors for that.  But I just had to go snapper fishing on the weekend so all the new toys had to be left until fishing done and boat/gear all cleaned up and put away.  Tonight I sit here trying to empty a keg of pacific summer ale while I put what I have together (after all it is the festive season and all) to get this nearer its first AG batch.

A few questions for those that use these Nano Brewery - brew in a basket systems @Bearded Burbler and others.  Refer to pics.

1. The pickup port lower edge on mine is 35 mm from the base of the pot so suspect I need a elbow bend on the inside to get it down to be able to take out more wort and not leave approx 5 litres inside.  Surely there is not going to be 5 L of sediment left after the boil etc.

2. So because of 1. I am thinking the pickup port not only needs an elbow but also some sort of mesh filter on it to stop any erroneous grain or hop matter getting sucked into my new pump.

3. The gap between the basket and the pot rim is substantial and I was thinking of making up a cover board with suitable size hole in the centre so I can poor my grains in without getting any down the outside of the basket but still be able to stir the whole mash.  Might even get a local poly chopping board manufacturer to cut me one to exact size and fit a few lugs so its always centre on the basket.  How do others put their grain bill in these other than very carefully?

Anyway will look forward to replies and suggestions as the cooling coil arrives on Wednesday and am getting pretty keen now.

Cheers - AL

[iBooz2]

So guys, this is what I was thinking of fitting to the pickup outlet as there is a 65 mm gap between the bottom of the mesh basket and bottom of Nano Brewery so plenty of room.  Also the is a 35 mm gap between the bottom of the pick up pipe so if I fit one of these it should help filter and pick up most of the wort from the very bottom as I recirculate the wort during the mash.  I already have a through the lid re-circulation kit.

From my calculations there will be approx 9 litres of wort below the basket so will need to be able to pump as much of that out as I can without taking any unwanted break material etc.

Has anyone used one of these spiral wound filters in their gear?  Link to product here.

Cheers - AL

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Has anyone used one of these spiral wound filters in their gear? 

I have not seen this type before.

I think that once the liquid level gets below outlet pipe, it will still stop flowing.  Whether gravity or pumping, if liquid gets between the coils, wont it just start sucking air from the part of the coil above the liquid level.  You will probably need an elbow to get the whole coil under the liquid.

[iBooz2]

On 12/17/2020 at 8:21 AM, Shamus O'Sean said:

I think that once the liquid level gets below outlet pipe, it will still stop flowing.  Whether gravity or pumping, if liquid gets between the coils, wont it just start sucking air from the part of the coil above the liquid level.  You will probably need an elbow to get the whole coil under the liquid.

Yes Shamus that was my thoughts too.  There is not enough height between the outlet pipe thread and the base for an elbow and a tee so went with two elbows and a nipple to angle it a bit.  This way the spiral pickup filter can sit on the bottom of the tub and I will at least get the level down to 13 mm or thereabouts deep before air is sucked in via the top of the spiral slits.  See pic.

I think it will work and will give it a test run over the weekend with just some water.  Am going to do some test boils and measurements to work out boil off rates and things like that so I know what will happen/expect in real brew situation.

In fact I bought two of the spiral setups, one for the bottom of the tub and I am going to use the other on top of the grain bed to evenly distribute the re-circulation and/or sparge water which I think will work very well, better than some of the other ideas I had in mind for the sparge anyway.

My wort chilling bits arrived today so I am all set-up gear wise.  Now to get a grain bill sorted and ordered for its maiden batch.  It will be a 23 Litre batch at first just so I can get my processes right.

Cheers - AL

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

10 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

 

That'll do it.

[Pale Man]

On 12/7/2020 at 8:17 PM, Aussiekraut said:

70l? That's my next system  

I always said that when I start AG, I'll still make some kits 'n' bits batches but you know what? I never did. I made one batch of a beer I used to like a while ago to use up a leftover kit and a can of malt. I didn't like the beer and gave it away. AG spoils you. Not that you can't make a bad AG beer or a fabulous extract/kit beer mind you. But I find my AG brews so much better than any kit I ever made. Then again, maybe I'm just full of it  

Welcome to the wonderful world of AG beers. It's more work but well worth it imho. 

I'm learning AG, and have done two brews. I Fcked both of them up, but taste wise they far exceeded any kit beer ive ever done. I wont go back to using extract. The fresh taste of grain is amazing.

[iBooz2]

Got all the bits an pieces connected and did leak tests on gas and cold water test on pumping system and all good so on to the next step which is to test the electricals, heating element and inkbird controller.  

I made a couple of mods to my original set-up:

1.  Was fitting a ball valve to one of my 20 litre Big-W pots so I can use this for sparge water.  It will be heated separately on a camping wok cooker and temp manually controlled.

2.  Was fitting a 3 way ball valve to the pump suction input.  The idea is during mashing the pump can be used to re-circulate the wort and at completion the basket can be lifted up onto its draining hooks and I can the select sparge water to be pumped over the grain bed.  I can control the flow via ball valve on pump output.  I bought a second spiral filter to be used to evenly distribute the sparge water over the grain bed and think this idea will work a treat, time will tell.

I do have a whirlpool fitting of sorts that I can use at the top on the boiler, (see pic) just need to know if it is better to whirlpool from the bottom or the top of the wort as I can fit some silicone tube to squirt it around lower if need be.

I used the gas to get 34 litre of water up to strike temp of 71.5 C which took ?? minutes as I forgot to time this part.  Turned off the gas and switched over to the electrical element and check it worked and that it was able to hold a set temp = no problem so on to the test boil.  The lid was off the whole time.

Used gas only to get it up to a rolling boil which took 15" with the re-circulating pump running the whole time.  There was 32 litres at the start of the actual boil.  Left it boil for 60 minutes also with the lid off and then there was only 24 litres left at the end so about 8.5 litres was boiled off losses.  Most software predicts a max of 15% boil off losses but mine seems about 26 %.  

Do you AG brewers leave the lid on during the boil as I remember somewhere that you have to have the lid off in order to remove unwanted stuff from the hop boils?

Do you think I should just use the electrical element for the boils so its not so aggressive a boil?  The gas was on nearly its lowest setting.

Then I tested the chiller coil which is a 65 litre brewzilla job.  Took 75 minutes to get it down to 23.5 C but will add twice as much ice to the chiller vessel next test.  

What is an acceptable time to chill a 23 litre batch your methods?  I know most do a no-chill cube but I want to get this process correct then it gives me both options, chill or no chill in the future.

My grain bags arrived yesterday, went a bit nuts here, got 1 x pale malt, 1 x pilsner and 1 x wheat malt.  The 25 kg bags do not fit into my storage drums so I will have to get brewing before the rodents sniff it out and have a munch.  I have a collection of other specialty malts left over from partials so pretty well stocked ATM.

Cheers - AL

Edited January 3, 2021 by iBooz2

[Dozer71]

1 hour ago, iBooz2 said:

Used gas only to get it up to a rolling boil which took 15" with the re-circulating pump running the whole time.  There was 32 litres at the start of the actual boil.  Left it boil for 60 minutes also with the lid off and then there was only 24 litres left at the end so about 8.5 litres was boiled off losses.  Most software predicts a max of 15% boil off losses but mine seems about 26 %.  

Do you AG brewers leave the lid on during the boil as I remember somewhere that you have to have the lid off in order to remove unwanted stuff from the hop boils?

Nice set up.

Lid off for the boil and it just needs to be a rolling boil, not vigorous so evaporation is around the 10%. If the gas is on the lowest setting may need to raise the pot or transfer to electric after the boil is reached.

[Shamus O'Sean]

3 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Do you AG brewers leave the lid on during the boil as I remember somewhere that you have to have the lid off in order to remove unwanted stuff from the hop boils?

Do you think I should just use the electrical element for the boils so its not so aggressive a boil?  The gas was on nearly its lowest setting.

Then I tested the chiller coil which is a 65 litre brewzilla job.  Took 75 minutes to get it down to 23.5 C but will add twice as much ice to the chiller vessel next test.  

What is an acceptable time to chill a 23 litre batch your methods?  I know most do a no-chill cube but I want to get this process correct then it gives me both options, chill or no chill in the future.

My grain bags arrived yesterday, went a bit nuts here, got 1 x pale malt, 1 x pilsner and 1 x wheat malt.  The 25 kg bags do not fit into my storage drums so I will have to get brewing before the rodents sniff it out and have a munch.  I have a collection of other specialty malts left over from partials so pretty well stocked ATM.

System looks great iBoozer2.

Common thinking is boil with lid off.

See Dozer71's comments on the boil.  I only have a 30L Grainfather so do not know about gas.  The Grainfather's boil is pretty gentle.  Therefore I think, once you are up to the boil, the electric element should be enough.

The Grainfather's counterflow chiller gets a 23L batch, that has cooled to about 85°C during whirlpool and my other faffing around, down to 22-23°C in less than 30 minutes.  Note though, that 22-23°C is the temperature in the return hose, not in the kettle.  You can start transferring to the fermenter once the return hose temperature is around pitching temperature. 

Am I right in thinking that some systems need to get the temperature in the kettle to pitching temperature and then transfer to the fermenter.  This would take longer than how I do it.  But I might be doing it wrong!

[Pezzza]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:30 PM, iBooz2 said:

3. The gap between the basket and the pot rim is substantial and I was thinking of making up a cover board with suitable size hole in the centre so I can poor my grains in without getting any down the outside of the basket but still be able to stir the whole mash.  Might even get a local poly chopping board manufacturer to cut me one to exact size and fit a few lugs so its always centre on the basket.  How do others put their grain bill in these other than very carefully?

Boozer sorry been so slow on response - mate I really don't think you need to worry that much - pouring the milled grain in I think is pretty easy and straightforward - and hey if a few grains end up out of the basket I really don't think it is the end of the world... but pouring the grains in is usually pretty easy to be directed.

When you say Poly - you are not intending to put Poly into your SS mesh basket during hot work?  Would avoid putting any plastic into the hot fluid meself... SS is the biz for that.

But I may be barking up the wrong tree here too?

[Pezzza]

Hey there @iBooz2 AL... hope things are progressing well for your AG mate.

Agree with @Dozer71 and @Shamus O'Sean re the boil - yeah mate seems to be de rigueur for boil w lid off... possibly assists with the denaturing of some unwanted proteins... and possibly the maillard reactions - caramelisation reactions...

And agree with me man @Aussiekraut AK that for me a reasonably good AG is just pure gold... a quantum leap forward in brewing... Hey but I don't discount making beers in other ways and see many get great results and me also in the past with KnKnAdjuncts. 

Re Cooling and Heat Exchange at Flame out:

I don't use a Cube and even though got a SS spiral - got no water to waste - and noted somewhere in Palmer he had nothing against letting cool o'night which is what I do with a fan blowing on controlled by Inky... the cold nights here are great for that... and this latest cool summer the nights have still been cool which is great... this also seems to let all the trub drop out really well... It probably is NOT best practice by any means... but not had any complaints ever and honestly think my AGs have been great... my only recent complaint from a megaswill drinker mate who ran into the wall/came unstuck on my Summer Ale which he larrrrved was... that my glass sizes were too large  

.... and he reckons next time he is bringing his own ; )

My only AG disasters - one with a burn on - and CPB got my element replaced - and I then upgraded to a better quality element together with a voltage controller for fine-control over the boil... But I reckon too maybe I had gone way too hard on Crystal Malt too....

And the other one was where I had a major spillage off my trollery... the vessel off me trolley -- not me off mine ; )   -- as I was completely sober but rather a stupid late night clumsiness issue... but the DRA that came to being after an extra add-on volume brew made the Disaster Recovery Ale a beautiful thing in the end haha 

HTH mate 

[Hairy]

@iBooz2

I have one of those storage containers. Definitely not big enough for a 25kg bag of grain. I split the bag across a couple of containers. Splitting it across two containers makes them easier to carry and move around too.

You want the lid on secure to keep the rodents out,

Edited January 3, 2021 by Hairy

[iBooz2]

2 hours ago, Graubart said:

When you say Poly - you are not intending to put Poly into your SS mesh basket during hot work?  Would avoid putting any plastic into the hot fluid meself... SS is the biz for that.

What I was going to do was get a guy who makes commercial poly chopping boards via a CNC router setup but he is closed for the holidays so I just made one up myself out of some marine ply and sealed it with some carbothane to stop moisture ingress.  Basically all I wanted was something I can temporarily sit on top then pour in the grain and stir out the dough balls without having to worry about a heap of grain going down the sides.  Once all grain in and dough balls all gone then lift off this ply and put aside. 

My wife calls it a dunny seat for a thunder-box like her father used to make way back, so now the name has stuck.  Just have to be careful some smart rrrsssee (pun intended) does not take a dump in it as that would not make for a good brew ha ha.

Cheers - AL

 

[iBooz2]

@Dozer71 yep thanks mate, sorta my thinking too.  Was going to do another test boil today using say 24 litres and just the electric element under inky control just to get a handle on my boil off losses but a batch of ginger beer got in the way and needed bottling up.  Maybe tomorrow.

@Shamus O'Sean all good advice and thanks.  When I do next test boil off will re-do the chill test but this time use double the 2 litre orange juice containers that are full of frozen water.  If that still takes too long then may have to bite the bullet (yet again) and get one of those counter-flow jobs like you have.  I know Lusty's got the exy $ one I had my eye on so we will see.

Another question for you if you don't mind.  Water profile?  You would be probably on the same water supply to me - Yarra Valley Water and wondering if I need to look at a reverse RO filter setup as they too are exy $ for good ones.  Do you do anything special to your water that I might need to consider?  I have tank water so can filter that if everyone reckons it is a good as you can get without fiddling with / tweaking water profile too much.

Does this brewing rabbit hole have a bottom? Anyone been there and survived to tell their story?

@Hairy thanks for the heads up re your idea Hairy and I went back to local Bunnings but they did not have any more of this size so will grab some more when I go to another store as they are showing stock.  Rodents plus moisture will be the enemy of grain exposed to the air so gotta get this sorted quite quickly.

Great to have such fantastic support and ideas in here blokes.  Really appreciate it.

Cheers - AL

[Hairy]

The Handy Pails from Bunnings are good too. Various sizes for different grain. Medium sized for the 5kg bags and small ones for specialty grains.

[Pezzza]

7 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

I have tank water so can filter that if everyone reckons it is a good as you can get without fiddling with / tweaking water profile too much.

I have only ever added some acidulated malt re water pH modification to my Rain Water brews.... and from general monitoring it does seem to assist attenuation in my fairly malt heavy Brew in a Basket malting process...  my Rain Water is filtered but nothing too hi tech.

And as for beer output flavour - I did get some calcium etc additions to try when I started AG and so far have not got around to trying them.... that means either of two things

1. I am slack

2. Beer output tastes good so why change it...

Or a bit of both 

[Pezzza]

7 minutes ago, Hairy said:

The Handy Pails from Bunnings are good too. Various sizes for different grain. Medium sized for the 5kg bags and small ones for specialty grains.

Agree w @Hairy Hairy and I also would recommend if easily got hold of - 35L or so ferment vat vessels - food grade - and I just put a bit of heavy black tape over the hole where the bubbler goes - and it holds easy the 25kg bag in one hit... pure Gold... if you grab whole malted grain bags at all.... 

Got mine from CPB when I was travelling past one time...  I can only see 30L ones now...  but I think Bunners 20L are like $20... and these are only $28 and a nicer unit I think.

 

 

[iBooz2]

31 minutes ago, Hairy said:

The Handy Pails from Bunnings are good too. Various sizes for different grain. Medium sized for the 5kg bags and small ones for specialty grains.

Yep already got a few of these sizes, currently holding all my specialty grains in 1 x 20 litre at the moment and use the other 2 x 11 L and 4 x 5 L for various tasks as I have no running water in the brewery.

Thinking I need another big 35 litre job and two more 20 L handy pails to get me over the line for time being.  Maybe just buy 10 Kg of grains in future and then be able to mix the grain stocks up a bit more so I can pretty much brew anything on a whim.

Cheers - AL