What's in Your Fermenter? 2020

[Pezzza]

3 minutes ago, Mirek Kania said:

I would give a lot, to taste one that was brewed the way and with yeasts as they did that 1000 years ago.

And the original Pilsener from Pilsen too hey Mirek?

[Mirek Kania]

22 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

And the original Pilsener from Pilsen too hey Mirek?

Funny. For 18 years, I was working for Czech company located in Domažlice, just 50 km from Plzeñ where Prazdroj Brewery is located. And always prefered beer from small local Brewery in Domažlice. The Domažlice Brewery is brewing since 1318, and is the oldest working Brewery in Czech Republic. 

Česky Prazdroj, or as you know it Pilsner Urquell, was a very good beer till it was sold to South Africans on 1998. Since then it's quality constantly decreased.  I guess, about a year of 2000-2003 I stopped to drink it. Then started again few years later, when my Czech mates told me it is save to drink it again. 

I am very about trying old recipies. The thing is we should probably make malt ourselfs and harvest wild hops to get close to real ancient taste. Maybe one day...

Edited November 20, 2020 by Mirek Kania

[Tricky Micky]

25 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

S-23 is on my banned/never to use again list. Did 3 or 4 batches and never got a good result with it. W34/70 never had a bad batch

As from now it's on my banned list to. Chalk and cheese between S23 and W34/70 using ostensibly the same recipe and ferment temps. The difference even to my untrained palate was noticeable.

[Otto Von Blotto]

BB I'm not using it at the moment, however I am using a similar strain called Czech pilsner, wyeast number is 2278. I think it's actually from the same brewery, apparently there's two strains, D and H, 2278 is the latter. 

I really liked the 2001 urquell D yeast though. Next time I see it available I'll probably get it again. I found at 10 degrees it took off quicker than the 2278 does, so I ferment 2278 at 12 degrees to get it done in a similar timeframe. Flavour is pretty similar though, but I probably prefer the 2001. 

[BlackSands]

Latest kveik brew has fermented out in under 24 hours.   A low ABV beer OG=1.032 is now at 1.005.  Sample is clearing already, tastes clean  - even though it's over 30ºC !    I'll give it another day and then CC for a few more.   Brew day to bottle in probably 5 days I'd say.  

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by BlackSands

[Pezzza]

17 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Sample is clearing already, tastes clean  - even though it's over 30ºC ! 

... and no pressure brewing Sandman?   Just ambient pressure?

[BlackSands]

2 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

... and no pressure brewing Sandman?   Just ambient pressure?

No pressure, I don't have that capability - just a plastic fermenter in my fridge which I heated up to 35ºC.  Kveik is absolutely ferocious! 

Someone ironic that while it's widely excepted that a fridge is most convenient for fermentation temperature control, for kveik yeasts you really need an oven!   

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, Mirek Kania said:

Then started again few years later, when my Czech mates told me it is save to drink it again. 

Excellent to have some mates to let you know when it was safe again Mirek!   And somehow too it makes perfect sense that the smaller brewery made a better brew when you were there mate.... haha though from 1317 mate they obviously got plenty of history there as well hey?!

That is why it was great the Courts in Australia helped Coopers (Family Business) keep the evil mulitnationals at bay when they came in for a raid a few years ago!  ; )

34 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Czech pilsner, wyeast number is 2278.

Thanks Kelsey - yes mate that actually was the one I was thinking of you had mentioned (I couldn't find the earlier post d'oh )

.... but the other Czechos yeasty fella sounds good too!

 

[Pezzza]

1 minute ago, BlackSands said:

No pressure, I don't have that capability - just a plastic fermenter in my fridge which I heated up to 35ºC.  Kveik is absolutely ferocious! 

Someone ironic that while it's widely excepted that a fridge is most convenient for fermentation temperature control, for kveik yeasts you really need an oven!   

Haha or just later in the summer here hahaha.... I really think I do need to have a crack at this Kveikker - not only from the temp robustness but also from the speed of brewing completion!

So even at those warm temps you don't cop off-flavours etc Sandman?   

Does it flocc out ok as well... do you chill before kegging or bottling?

And higher ABVs work ok as well - starting at higher OGs?

[BlackSands]

24 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

So even at those warm temps you don't cop off-flavours etc Sandman?   

Does it flocc out ok as well... do you chill before kegging or bottling?

And higher ABVs work ok as well - starting at higher OGs?

There's nothing I'd call an off-flavour and I'm not really aware of the fruity yeast characteristics some mention.  Without doing a side-by-side against a more conventional ale strain it's hard to be sure.   Kveik flocc's like no other!  Nottingham is great but this kveik yeast drops like a ton of bricks in a very short time.  And yes, I will cold crash this for a few days and give it a dose of gelatin.  Many find kveik fermented beers to be quite hazy buy my last couple of efforts have actually cleared up pretty well.   

[BlackSands]

33 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Haha or just later in the summer here hahaha....

Oh and yeah, I've been recommending this to my daughter.  She's in Brisbane and has struggled in the past with no temp control.  Kveik is the perfect solution for brewers in her situation I think where day time temps are often well up in the 30's over the Summer.  

Edited November 21, 2020 by BlackSands

[Otto Von Blotto]

Pitched my pilsner about 3 hours ago, got the target 21 litres in there and temperature was 14 and dropping when I turned the temp controller back on. I don't know what it ended up dropping to but it'd be somewhere around 12 after the cube sat in there for around 14 hours. 

Got the flask soaking at the moment and will rinse it later so it's ready to make up another starter tomorrow morning before I head off to golf. It'll be pitched tomorrow arvo or evening, whenever it cools down enough to, in readiness for another batch of pils I'm brewing next Saturday. Good to be back into regular brewing although the reason isn't great as you know. One day at a time.

[jamiek86]

3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Pitched my pilsner about 3 hours ago, got the target 21 litres in there and temperature was 14 and dropping when I turned the temp controller back on. I don't know what it ended up dropping to but it'd be somewhere around 12 after the cube sat in there for around 14 hours. 

 

I was worried when my lager sitting on 16 hadn't shown any activity in 24 hours I can imagine at colder temps how long takes unless the starter makes it faster

[Mirek Kania]

13 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Urquell is german for "original source"...  classic deutsch compound noun... Ur - is sort of "the beginning"... right at the very start... means more than just 'original' to me... and Quell... also sort of more than just source...

In Czech it is called Pivovar Plzeñsky Prazdroj. (Pivovar = Brewery)

The German name of the city Plzeñ is Pilsen, and "Pilsener Urquell" comes from the time when Czech was under Austro-Hungarian Empire on 19th century. 

"Prazdroj" means exactly what you explaind on your linguistic analysis - "Pra" in Czech (also in Polish) is "the first segment of compound words indicating their semantic relationship with something very distant in time or with the original form or first occurrence"; "zdroj" (in Polish we say it "zdrój" - "ó" is pronounced as "u") means "wellspring, fount, source, the source of wellness". 

So, Urquell is quite literal translation of Prazdroj, as you explained, mate.

[Otto Von Blotto]

3 hours ago, jamiek86 said:

I was worried when my lager sitting on 16 hadn't shown any activity in 24 hours I can imagine at colder temps how long takes unless the starter makes it faster

They often take up to 48 hours to show visible signs like foam starting to form. I've done enough of them now to not be worried by it though. The starter helps though because its purpose is to grow more cells. It probably works out at about 3 or 4 packs of dry yeast grown from around one pack worth.  

[jamiek86]

7 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

They often take up to 48 hours to show visible signs like foam starting to form. I've done enough of them now to not be worried by it though. The starter helps though because its purpose is to grow more cells. It probably works out at about 3 or 4 packs of dry yeast grown from around one pack worth.  

I will eventually have to get into this to save myself money if I do it from say 6 500ml bottles of already made lager that I used sufficient yeast in this would be enough to make a starter and pitch in next brew? its amazing the lower temps my current brew with us05 sitting on 18 to 19 since last Saturday took 24 hours to show signs and still has krausen after week even though would surely be almost done.  was on 1.015 Friday might test it again tomorrow and Tuesday and if done cold crash since I added hops they block bottle wand if not cold crashed.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It might be, hard to know without knowing the cell count in the bottles. It could always be built up though like putting the bottle dregs into a 1 litre starter then putting the yeast from that into a 3 litre starter. 

I always start with a fresh pack, but my method involves making starters deliberately too big, so I can harvest the excess and use it next time and the process repeats. I can't even remember when I bought yeast last. I just keep reusing it with this method.

[jamiek86]

I might have to research this a bit more and wait until not at work and try it with an ale yeast I think i read a few post about it and people let the starter ferment out too much making it unusable? @Otto Von Blotto

[Journeyman]

These went into the FV yesterday. Top FV is Brew A IPA with amber LME w/mosaic and citra and the lower is an XPA clone.

Interesting the difference in Kraussen as they have exactly the same yeast - I made a double batch hydrated Nott in 2L and poured 1 litre into each. Took a bit longer to kick off than my normal vitality starter but not enough to put it outside normal variation.

[Journeyman]

15 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Top FV is Brew A IPA with amber LME w/mosaic and citra and the lower is an XPA clone.

Oh... forgot to mention - they both have the low carb enzyme.

I am quite pleased how that went in the previous 2 brews - it made them strong but I tried the American XPA (XPA clone but with Caramalt steep & mashed with American Ale malt) - it's been in the keg 3 days and it is quite smooth, especially considering it came in about 9.3%! Both it and the Fixation (9.6%) were put onto 30 psi and shaken briefly each day then disconnected. Did it again yesterday morning then put them on serving pressure - actually got some head and light carbonation.

[Shamus O'Sean]

36 minutes ago, jamiek86 said:

I might have to research this a bit more and wait until not at work and try it with an ale yeast I think i read a few post about it and people let the starter ferment out too much making it unusable? @Otto Von Blotto

Hi Jamie,  below are a couple of really good discussion topics on yeast starters.  I have been using @Otto Von Blotto's method for the last 6 months.  I only moved to this method because I got a hold of a second hand stir plate and glass flask.  Like a lot of options with brewing, it is a deep rabbit hole and you have to test your desire to expand your brewing experience against laying out cash and the time taken for more steps.  It is much easier to just buy more yeast.  But, I like the process of making starters.

My current yeast generations are:

• Nottingham 3rd generation, 4th planned for mid-December
• W34-70  only 2nd generation, 3rd generation use is probably too far off to make it worthwhile keeping.  It could be done with a stepped starter, but it might just be as cheap to buy new yeast.
• Coopers Commercial Ale yeast only one generation and like the W34-70 the next use is too far away.  It will be cheaper to just buy a new 6-8 pack
• US-05 6th generation on the stir plate as we speak

I have moved from Otto's starter volumes to using the Yeast Starter calculator in Brewfather.  This seems to get similar cell counts using less water and less LDM.  Like Otto I overbuild the starter and harvest some for the starter for the next brew.

Although Otto's method sounds like it "lets the starter ferment out too much", this is done on purpose.  His method has the starter on the stir plate for 24 hours, then a rest for 36-48 hours.  The next stage is a re-stir for an hour or so to mix the yeast back in to make it easier to harvest the overbuild volume for the next starter and the pitch volume for the current brew.  Both overbuild volume and pitch volumes are then popped in the fridge to settle out.  I think Otto's method is called a Viability starter.  The other method, which is basically just the 24 hour stir, is the Vitality method, presumably because the starter is around high krausen after that time and at its most active.  Hence a good time to pitch.  Both are successful ways of doing a starter.  Otto's method seems to be better for overbuilding.

The Shaken not Stirred Starter method is very similar to harvesting from the Coopers bottles.  This is a good way to begin doing starters without much equipment.

 

[jamiek86]

thanks mate i might just try it from already drank beers like the Coopers commercial harvest one to start with then work my way up thanks for the link @Shamus O'Sean

[Tone boy]

On 11/21/2020 at 7:51 AM, Bearded Burbler said:

I think @Otto Von Blotto Kelsey is right with better crisper clean flavours with the cold temp protocol being followed @Tone boy TB...

But saying that... if you cannot maintain those cold temps... you still can get a pretty ok clean lager or pseudo lager at 18 and 20 with W34/70 and US05...  I think going higher than 20 and towards 25 and 28/30 the world might change... 

And then there is the pressure-ferment game that mimics the cooler temp but utilising elevated pressure to constrain the yeasts activity instead of cold temps doing that... so you can ferment warmer but under pressure for similar results.

Thanks BB. I’m definitely interested in the pressure fermentation but at the moment don’t have the gear to do it. I’ll do some research to find out about what I need to purchase and what processes to follow...

Cheers

[Tone boy]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:21 AM, Mickep said:

Hey TB, thanks for the info mate. I had seen that article at brulosophy and it is interesting.  I'm also keen to see what this latest brew I'm doing using Nott yeast at 15 degrees will end up like. Tried the 4th day sample and it's already very nice...so I think I can expect a nice beer. I've done 6 brews now, three with W34/70, two with Fermentis S-23 and the latest in the FV using the Nott yeast.

It may be just anecdotal but to my palate  the beers I've done using W34/70 a best by a country mile. The S23 yeast in my humble opinion is a dud. Using almost the same recipes in each brew the S23 slows down its process until it's almost stalling and imparts a really tart taste to the beer. The W34/70 on the other hand was really quick to get to its FG and the beer tasted fantastic and smelt great too.  One of the biggest difference I noticed between the brews using the different yeast was head retention, W34/70 was a ripper, large head which stayed in the glass to the last drop. The S23 brew barely produced any head to speak of.

 

The Nott yeast was only 5 points off FG on the 4th day so it's motoring along even at 15 degrees. 

And don't forget Kveik yeast for pseudo lagers  either. I haven't used it myself as yet but plan to. It sounds like a bit of a beast of a yeast.

https://shortfingerbrewing.com/blogs/news/kveik-lagers 

Here's my recipe for the Nott pseudo Aussie lager,

  

Great Mick thanks for the info and for the recipe. The 2 lagers I did were both with S23 at 10 degrees. I agree about the poor head retention. I didn’t know the yeast would influence that so good to know. Super keen to try the w34/70 now!

I though Kveik would give off flavor not suited to lager? I might need to read up on that. Could be an option over summer...
 

cheers mate

[John E Miller]

1 hour ago, Tone boy said:

W34/70 a best by a country mile. The S23 yeast in my humble opinion is a dud.

I have been hearing this a lot lately. I have used S23 twice before, and thought it was okay, but I have never used W34/70.

I'll have to give it a go next lager