It's Kegging Time 2019

[Journeyman]

3 minutes ago, Smash said:

The standard disconnect I have doesn't need push fittings, so should be less to go wrong

Ah... I was going from the pic. So taps are barb connections also?  Could it be a micro-split in the line itself or have you changed that out as well?

[Smash]

40 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Ah... I was going from the pic. So taps are barb connections also?  Could it be a micro-split in the line itself or have you changed that out as well?

Yeah they are. Possibly, but I have only had it for 12 months or so without heaps of use. It's 5mm ID Valpar Flexmaster line

[Titan]

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

The beer is being pushed in at the keg and the moment you turn off the tap there is air being sucked into the line. I can't see anything else doing it like you show

I dont see it this way. The flow control is giving resistance and so is the length of line so the beer in the line is foaming. Then the foam in the line recedes leaving the beer at the low points in the line.

[Journeyman]

7 minutes ago, Titan said:

I dont see it this way. The flow control is giving resistance and so is the length of line so the beer in the line is foaming. Then the foam in the line recedes leaving the beer at the low points in the line.

Would the foam have time to form and dissipate in between pouring one beer and the next? I'd have thought in this scenario the 2nd beer would be fine. Or are you saying the resistance is constantly forming the foam as the beer moves through?

[iBooz2]

Several weeks ago I had a similar issue, that is, ½ glass of foam each pour right up until the keg blew.  Even with burping the keg over a few days suspecting it was over carbonated did nothing to help. A PITA.

Now I find myself in the exact situation again with the kegged batch of Neon Haze.  It’s bloody annoying.  My situation is there are two kegs in the keg fridge each with its own Pluto gun, same length of same ID beer line and a common gas line and pressure to each (9 psi).  The left hand keg pours beautifully (Busty Blonde Ale), right hand keg pours ½ glass of foam every pour.

I suspected it might be the Pluto gun on that keg so transposed them and the same foamy pour from the right hand keg and a beautiful pour still from the left keg.  The only thing left in the equation is the beer dip tube and ball lock post on that keg. Something is causing turbulence in that dip tube/connector somewhere.

Have been wondering if this keg is the same keg that gave me grief weeks ago and has come back to haunt me.  I have since labelled it as foamy and when it blows very shortly will pull that dip tube right out and investigate.

@Smash  Now I would have thought if there was a leak in the beer line to his taps as suggested in the help in smashes case, beer would be evident all around the base of the kegs as it will be under pressure from the gas and the liquid will escape out said leak.  Left long enough and he would lose all his beer.  That's what I would call a leak.  I don't think air is going to leak into the beer line as in a "venturi effect" when he pours as there is higher pressure in the line not a lower pressure.  I.e. so its not going to suck bubbles in.  If it has not been over carbonated then it's got to be something causing turbulence in the beer flow somewhere from the bottom of the dip tube to the top/ lines / connectors etc.

Cheers - AL

Edited June 1, 2020 by iBooz2

[Titan]

23 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Or are you saying the resistance is constantly forming the foam as the beer moves through?

Yes because the resistance is causing the beer to foam in the line every pour. 

[Journeyman]

Thanks @iBooz2 and @Titan - helps me understand more what can happen.

[Smash]

21 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Several weeks ago I had a similar issue, that is, ½ glass of foam each pour right up until the keg blew.  Even with burping the keg over a few days suspecting it was over carbonated did nothing to help. A PITA.

Now I find myself in the exact situation again with the kegged batch of Neon Haze.  It’s bloody annoying.  My situation is there are two kegs in the keg fridge each with its own Pluto gun, same length of same ID beer line and a common gas line and pressure to each (9 psi).  The left hand keg pours beautifully (Busty Blonde Ale), right hand keg pours ½ glass of foam every pour.

I suspected it might be the Pluto gun on that keg so transposed them and the same foamy pour from the right hand keg and a beautiful pour still from the left keg.  The only thing left in the equation is the beer dip tube and ball lock post on that keg. Something is causing turbulence in that dip tube/connector somewhere.

Have been wondering if this keg is the same keg that gave me grief weeks ago and has come back to haunt me.  I have since labelled it as foamy and when it blows very shortly will pull that dip tube right out and investigate.

@Smash  Now I would have thought if there was a leak in the beer line to his taps as suggested in the help in smashes case, beer would be evident all around the base of the kegs as it will be under pressure from the gas and the liquid will escape out said leak.  Left long enough and he would lose all his beer.  That's what I would call a leak.  I don't think air is going to leak into the beer line as in a "venturi effect" when he pours as there is higher pressure in the line not a lower pressure.  I.e. so its not going to suck bubbles in.  If it has not been over carbonated then it's got to be something causing turbulence in the beer flow somewhere from the bottom of the dip tube to the top/ lines / connectors etc.

Cheers - AL

That's what I thought originally, which made me change to a tap over the pluto, but nothing changed. I gave the dip tube a blast of gas last night, but not much changed. I might not have waited long enough after disrupting it, but I will give the disconnect a good clean and break down tonight. I agree with the leaks vs pressure inside the keg as I have no beer itself leaking, but still confised as to where the excess air is coming from in the line. Thanks for the help, very interested to what you find when you take your keg apart! Might tip and do the same soon if I cant fix it with the beer inside.

7 minutes ago, Titan said:

Yes because the resistance is causing the beer to foam in the line every pour. 

Thanks for the help!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Cleaned out one keg, but ran out of time to clean the other one at the back so just switched it out for the porter which is now all connected and on gas at serving pressure chilling down. I'll turn its gas off when the pale ale goes in on Thursday for its high pressure overnight carbing and restart it Friday morning. Only one weekend without beer on tap is good, and with the pilsner due to be kegged next week some time, it'll be a while before that happens again. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

Two kegs full and waiting in the shared fridge. Just bringing down a lager to cold crash for a few days. I'll be able to get them on the pour when the temp gets down. Should be good for a few taste testers this weekend. 

[Smash]

Changed the disconnect to a standard one after a clean out. Still bubbles in the line, but only in the sections that sit higher. Beer still pouring at 50/50. Could there be something in the keg post? 

[Beerlust]

Hi @Smash.

Sorry to hear of the troubles you're having at present with your kegging system. I'm not sure if you have solved the frothing issue yet (hopefully you have), but if you haven't, perhaps have a read below...

On 5/31/2020 at 5:03 PM, Smash said:

I've read through the thread with all comments etc. as best I can to understand where you're at.

I was very interested in that particular photo. Two things come to mind for me. It could be a line balancing issue, or maybe a dodgy tap/tap seal.

1. How many metres of beer line have you got between your beer out connector & your tap as I can't quite tell?

2. What psi did you carbonate the current keg at, & what is the pressure your regulator is showing?

A very good article on keg line balancing that helped me & many others alike... Keg Line Length Balancing – The Science of Draft Beer

On the tap side, you can bubble test it to see if the tap itself has a leak. I saw a run through of this just once & from memory think it went like this...

...disconnect the tap completely & Blutak thoroughly the beer-in entry point into the tap housing. Make sure no liquid is inside the housing & the tap is turned off so that nothing can enter from the pouring end & then submerge it in a suitable volume of water. It should sink to the bottom. If you have any bubbles rising you have a leak in the tap itself. It happens. If you don't have any bubbles rising, you can at least rule this out as a cause of your current foaming problem.

One other thing, definitely keep your excess beer-out line from the keg toward the back of the fridge at the coldest part, not toward the front that is generally warmer.

I hope something in what I've said can help resolve your current issue.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Beerlust

[Pezzza]

 

@Red devil 44 Red - any ideas here mate?

[Smash]

14 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Hi @Smash.

Sorry to hear of the troubles you're having at present with your kegging system. I'm not sure if you have solved the frothing issue yet (hopefully you have), but if you haven't, perhaps have a read below...

I've read through the thread with all comments etc. as best I can to understand where you're at.

I was very interested in that particular photo. Two things come to mind for me. It could be a line balancing issue, or maybe a dodgy tap/tap seal.

1. How many metres of beer line have you got between your beer out connector & your tap as I can't quite tell?

2. What psi did you carbonate the current keg at, & what is the pressure your regulator is showing?

A very good article on keg line balancing that helped me & many others alike... Keg Line Length Balancing – The Science of Draft Beer

On the tap side, you can bubble test it to see if the tap itself has a leak. I saw a run through of this just once & from memory think it went like this...

...disconnect the tap completely & Blutak thoroughly the beer-in entry point into the tap housing. Make sure no liquid is inside the housing & the tap is turned off so that nothing can enter from the pouring end & then submerge it in a suitable volume of water. It should sink to the bottom. If you have any bubbles rising you have a leak in the tap itself. It happens. If you don't have any bubbles rising, you can at least rule this out as a cause of your current foaming problem.

One other thing, definitely keep your excess beer-out line from the keg toward the back of the fridge at the coldest part, not toward the front that is generally warmer.

I hope something in what I've said can help resolve your current issue.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

 

Hey Lusty, cheers for the help. I have around 2.5-3 meters of 5mm ID line. The beer is at 10psi at the moment (for the past weekish), after being set to 12psi once originally kegged. That image was taken straight after a pour, which makes me think there's something closer to the disconnect which is the issue. I have put the excess beer line on top of the keg now, and it has helped with excess bubbles and air in the line, but they are still arount 20% air/bubbles. Would there be something wrong with the keg post? I may see if there is a leak closer to the keg tonight. Thanks for the help!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Using a pressure lower than it was originally carbonated at can cause this problem as well because there isn't enough pressure coming in to keep the gas in solution. I find this happens with over carbonated kegs because there's more pressure in the keg than what the regulator is set to. 

You need to keep it the same to keep the gas in solution. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto

[Pezzza]

16 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

 

@Red devil 44 Red - any ideas here mate? 

On further consideration - as one of the Learned Keggers noted earlier - if there was potential for air entering - would be beer pisssssing out everywhere...

Maybe there is shittt in the post - though you @Smash cleaned that....

I did have problems with an O-Ring that was too big - on the Liquid Post - on a second hand keg - but this is brand new isn't it...

I reckon trying another bit of hose with a new disconnect and maybe a cheap picnic tap might help isolate some of the variables...

Possibly something causing turbulence in the flow somewhere...  that does not allow flow and CO2 is coming out of solution around the cause of the turbulence maybe?

Did you try another disconnect already @Smash .... so if you could just get (I have been recommended 3.5m of the Valpar Line and use that with my SS Pluto Guns) cheap picnic tap... new disconn (maybe a CM Becker post) plus hose plus cheap picnic tap... and see if that makes any difference?

[Smash]

36 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Using a pressure lower than it was originally carbonated at can cause this problem as well because there isn't enough pressure coming in to keep the gas in solution. I find this happens with over carbonated kegs because there's more pressure in the keg than what the regulator is set to. 

You need to keep it the same to keep the gas in solution. 

Oops, I'll change this at home. Only reduced it to de-carb slightly to see if that was the issue. 

11 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

On further consideration - as one of the Learned Keggers noted earlier - if there was potential for air entering - would be beer pisssssing out everywhere...

Maybe there is shittt in the post - though you @Smash cleaned that....

I did have problems with an O-Ring that was too big - on the Liquid Post - on a second hand keg - but this is brand new isn't it...

I reckon trying another bit of hose with a new disconnect and maybe a cheap picnic tap might help isolate some of the variables...

Possibly something causing turbulence in the flow somewhere...  that does not allow flow and CO2 is coming out of solution around the cause of the turbulence maybe?

Did you try another disconnect already @Smash .... so if you could just get (I have been recommended 3.5m of the Valpar Line and use that with my SS Pluto Guns) cheap picnic tap... new disconn (maybe a CM Becker post) plus hose plus cheap picnic tap... and see if that makes any difference?

I did clean the disconnect (CMB), but not the post itself. Leaving that till last as it is half full of beer. If I try that, I have no beer to re-fill it, but I'm starting to think f it and try. 
Yeah, brand new keg. Might try and get some more line or something. That's what it seems, and it happens somewhere prior to the tap. Only tried the 2 disconnects I have, one being the CMB, other being the flow control disconnect. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Smash

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Using a pressure lower than it was originally carbonated at can cause this problem as well because there isn't enough pressure coming in to keep the gas in solution

Just on this - would it be OK to simply burp the keg to reduce it from the higher pressure and then put the gas on at serving pressure? What I am interested in is, I got a carbonation lid to help with carbing my kegs - once they've had time to get to the higher pressure I'd be taking the carb lid off and putting a proper lid on then setting it to serving. I figure with it cold there shouldn't be much fuss about foaming while I do it - there was no sign of it when I simply took the lid off the 1st keg I tried it with but that was only at serving pressure anyway.

So process would be - take it up to 30 psi overnight, next day de-pressure and put corny lid on and put on serving. Do you see any issues with that or am I just wasting gas?

[ben 10]

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

I got a carbonation lid to help with carbing my kegs

What is that?

 

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

would it be OK to simply burp the keg to reduce it from the higher pressure and then put the gas on at serving pressure?

Yes, that is what you do

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

Just on this - would it be OK to simply burp the keg to reduce it from the higher pressure and then put the gas on at serving pressure? What I am interested in is, I got a carbonation lid to help with carbing my kegs - once they've had time to get to the higher pressure I'd be taking the carb lid off and putting a proper lid on then setting it to serving. I figure with it cold there shouldn't be much fuss about foaming while I do it - there was no sign of it when I simply took the lid off the 1st keg I tried it with but that was only at serving pressure anyway.

So process would be - take it up to 30 psi overnight, next day de-pressure and put corny lid on and put on serving. Do you see any issues with that or am I just wasting gas?

Yeah, I do that with the high pressure carbonation method although not with a carbonation lid, but I leave it sit for a while first to absorb some or most of what's in the headspace before burping it and reconnecting at serving pressure.

If I'd had a keg sitting on 12psi for a while then decided to drop it I'd probably burp it a few times over a day or two to get it a little below whatever 10psi would give, then turn it back on to bring it up to that. If you just burp it once and reconnect it won't have released the excess gas in the beer properly and you'd possibly have the same problem. It's different with the high pressure method at least for me because I don't fully carbonate it, it's probably about 80-85% done with the rest topped up on serving pressure. Doing this prevents over carbonation issues. 

[iBooz2]

4 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

On further consideration - as one of the Learned Keggers noted earlier - if there was potential for air entering - would be beer pisssssing out everywhere...

Precisely @Bearded Burbler, the keg and the connected lines are under positive pressure so air or anything else is never going to leak in whilst that positive pressure exists and remains there.

I reckon (if the beer has not been over carbed in the first place) @Smash has the same situation that I am experiencing and that there is a restriction in the dip tube or beer out post.  Now in the following I am guessing the keg dip tube ID is 5 mm.  Not sure having never measured one or pulled one apart.

If the dip tube has an ID of 5 mm the post has a ID of 5 mm and his beer line has and ID of 5 mm then NO or little flow turbulence or foam because the container is the same physical volume all the way.

Now if the dip tube has an ID of 5 mm the post has a ID of 5 mm and his beer line has and ID of 4 mm then NO or little flow turbulence or foam as the sudden reduction in volume will increase the pressure at that point in the line.

On the other hand if the dip tube has an ID of 5 mm the post has a ID of 3 mm (or less than his beer line ID) and his beer line has and ID of 4 or 5 mm then there is a risk of flow turbulence or foam as the sudden increase in line volume will drop the pressure at that point in the line.  I.e. going from a smaller volume to a larger volume will produce bubbles at this change.  Why?  Because the sudden drop in pressure at that point will draw gas out of the beer to make up for the sudden increase in volume which needs to be made up.

So in my case and @Smash 's I reckon there is a restriction in the beer out post which mean my beer (and the same with his beer) is going from a small/tight volume suddenly to a larger volume, i.e. my 4 mm ID beer line thus creating the foam.

This problem keg is about to blow so when its done will disassemble the dip tube / post etc. and try to take some photos.  A hint may be that I am on the right track is when I transposed my two Pluto guns/lines the black ball lock was a PITA to get off the post, almost had to pry it off with a screwdriver.  That's sort of telling me this post is gummed up and not allowing the ball to open fully or something.

Cheers - AL

Edited June 3, 2020 by iBooz2

[Pezzza]

6 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

If the dip tube has an ID of 5 mm the post has a ID of 5 mm and his beer line has and ID of 5 mm then NO or little flow turbulence or foam because the container is the same physical volume all the way.

Suspect that is what it SHOULD be but something has gone wrong in the best-laid plans of mice and men/brewers and keggers.

Entirely irrelevant - but really shittttt me was that I had probs losing gas - and after testing/isolating/swapping in and out... it came down to a BRAND NEW PRV...

so you can never assume anything works brand new or refurbished or not....

Maybe @Smash Smasher this is the great opportunity to go out and buy a new keg, new line, new CMB disconnect and a picnic tap and see if that works with your new keg... and then you can do whatever swap-in-swap-out to isolate the prob with Keg #1? 

Any good excuse to procure another keg I say!!!  ; )

[iBooz2]

@Smash Can you remove the gas line completely and burp the keg a couple of times then do a test pour?  It will piddle out I know but does it piddle out still foamy?

Just thinking out loud here with things that I had tried.

Cheers - AL

[Titan]

21 hours ago, Smash said:

Changed the disconnect to a standard one after a clean out. Still bubbles in the line, but only in the sections that sit higher. Beer still pouring at 50/50. Could there be something in the keg post? 

Not sure how your measuring line length but this looks a lot more than 2.5 to 3m.

[iBooz2]

@Bearded Burbler what I do after the kegs have been washed out, rinsed and made ready for a re-fill is put about 1 litre of sanitiser in them and pump up to 10 psi.  Connect a beer line temporarily to push the sanitiser up the dip tube and out the beer post then disconnect it.  Once that is done tip the bugger upside down, slosh around and leave upside down overnight.  Check the next day to see if any bubbles or leaks from posts, PRV and lid area.  If OK pick up and slosh around again this time sitting the right way up for a while.  Then connect up my beer out line again and expel all the sanitiser into then next keg or other container to reuse it.  Then release pressure and remove the lid, tip upside down to drain last of sanitiser and foam before filling with fresh beer.

Yes its painful to loose gas.  I once lost a full bottle of Argon because a brand new TIG welding regulator was a dud and leaked through the gauge dial thread (was cracked around the back where you would never see it unless you looked very hard).  Normally turn off at bottle after use but that day got distracted and it cost me $275 in Argon.  Seller of said regulator reused to take it back or offer any warranty claim whatsoever.

Cheers - AL