All Grain for beginners

[Classic Brewing Co]

Cheers AK, all nice & organised, I will have to decide whether I want to buy bulk grain & a mill or just continue as I am for the moment.

[Pezzza]

@Classic Brewing Co good discussion : )

I reckon for the time being you are better letting someone else warehouse a range of malted grains, store against the pests and hence thereby not be having to manage an inventory, and provide a nicely milled grist - as your LHBS or supplier is not that far away nor that costly to get freshly milled and shipped/picket up.... I sorta reckon maybe get a few more AGs under your belt so it becomes second nature... and then see whether you start buying in bulk and specialty grains. 

@Otto Von Blotto Kelsey pointed me in the right direction on many things in This Brewing Life and one of them was Frank (Brisbane--Everton Park) and his beautiful Mashmaster Minimill.... or "Millmaster Grain Mill".... it was quite a lot less exy a while ago... but all sorts of kit has gone up in price too over the past 3-4 years.  Note that you need to purchase the grain hopper as well - or make one - and then have an impact driver or little drill to drive it...  and then need a grain bucket and base with slot - to mount the hopper on... or build a bench with an electric motor as the little Craft Brewers do... @Dustin Frothman Dustin and @Aussiekraut show in their photos the hopper and mill over collection vessel.

Frank's magnificent SS unit is used all over the world... check out the utube vids... and is a pretty good heavy duty product.  Rusty Penny @Hairy Hairy's festive little local Crafty were operating a bit of a LHBS to start with and helped with my initial foray into AG... and they were very supportive of the Millmaster Mill. 

Anyway...  there is a bit of pfaffing about to get it all up and running and then there can be a bit of home R&D to get your milling spot on for the best crush delivering a nice grist particle size distribution to go into the Mash.  Another complication which can be avoid by purchasing fresh grist from good supplier.  Plus if you buy milled product as you need - you could work towards getting recent malts as well - what they have in stock that has not been sitting around for ages which may be fresh in from BBurston Coopers Voyager Gladfield and overseas.... 

I think it is a great idea to think about milling as an AG Brewer -- but as obtaining a freshly crushed Grain Bill from a LHBS not too far away is not an insurmountable expensive problem being based in a reasonably well sized and serviced metropolis -- that I would sorta suggest that buying and managing 25kg Base Malt Bags and Speciality Grains might be one variable not to have to worry about for a while... well maybe until you have the other AG activities pretty much coolio and easily managed and manipulated to deliver the target brew outcomes you are chasing it might be one less thing to have to worry about.

But hey there are many ways ; )

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

GRAIN STORAGE

I have seen posts from some members showing various methods of storing grain & was wondering what else some of you might be using, I am aware of the food grade buckets you would see in restaurants/cafes etc but ATM Woolworths have these 40l Sistema Tubs for 1/2 price $12, they are very strong & have a tight seal, I was thinking about a couple more but as @Itinerant Peasantpointed out if you are not milling your own grain, you won't need many, this one has 5kg in it & still room for another, also the Pail FV holds a bit too.

Given the cost of a decent Grain Mill & the fact that LBHS don't charge for milling (I think KL charge $2) I am undecided, can anyone recommend a decent grain mill.

Cheers

Phil

 

 

The Sistema tubs are good for grain storage.  I tend to use them for storing several 5kg lots.  

Old FV's are also good for larger weights of grains.

Two of the 20kg caterer style buckets hold 25kg worth of grain.  I also have a standard size plastic garbage bin that I hold a 25kg bag of grain inside (I leave it in the bag).

I bought a basic two roller grain mill for $119.90 in August 2018 from Australian Home Brewing in Oakleigh (Vic).  They do not have it now.  Just a $198.90 version with a base.  Mine seems to be still going strong.  It only held about 2.5kg of grain at a time, so I made a cardboard hopper extender that holds at least 8kg of grain.

I paired the mill with an Ozito High Torque drill.  Bunnings used to carry them, but I could not find it in a recent search.  I also had to buy a timber base.

[Aussiekraut]

8 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

The Sistema tubs are good for grain storage.  I tend to use them for storing several 5kg lots.  

Old FV's are also good for larger weights of grains.

Two of the 20kg caterer style buckets hold 25kg worth of grain.  I also have a standard size plastic garbage bin that I hold a 25kg bag of grain inside (I leave it in the bag).

I bought a basic two roller grain mill for $119.90 in August 2018 from Australian Home Brewing in Oakleigh (Vic).  They do not have it now.  Just a $198.90 version with a base.  Mine seems to be still going strong.  It only held about 2.5kg of grain at a time, so I made a cardboard hopper extender that holds at least 8kg of grain.

I paired the mill with an Ozito High Torque drill.  Bunnings used to carry them, but I could not find it in a recent search.  I also had to buy a timber base.

That is a good idea as the small hopper size on mine is a pain in the neck at times. It holds about 2.5-3kg, so I always have to top it up and do another run.

I only have a cheap, small 2 roller mill from Kegland and it served me well so far. I only had to adjust it once in the two years I've had it. It isn't the world's greatest tool but it does the trick and and in the end, it only takes a few minutes to mill an entire batch. I use a 20V cordless drill from Aldi to drive it. 

[Pezzza]

@Classic Brewing Co Phil - see below - this is sorta what I was alluding to wrt one more step to hafta manage that if you live in The Big Smoke you might be able to get others to complete cost-effectively for you maybe?

I have had my share of challenges mastering the milling step... and it even happens to the great ones amongst us...   Glad you got it sorted Sainter mate..@stquinto

it's a buggggger when things like this happen... and I think that we can all learn from @Shamus O'Sean Shamus point mentioned recently: "Start Early" haha... yes so maybe that's what you were doing Sainter getting ready for the next day haha but maybe even starting to mill a bit earlier might be wise as I cannot imagine the wrath  being poured upon you from above at 0300 mate !?! 

14 hours ago, stquinto said:

I thought I ‘d be clever and mill the grain last night. I started late (11pm) and for some reason the grain weren’t grinding, they were going out the other side, not between the rollers. Finally sorted it at 3am (with a trip down to the cellar by SWMBO at that time as an added bonus…)

[Classic Brewing Co]

24 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

The Sistema tubs are good for grain storage.  I tend to use them for storing several 5kg lots.  

Old FV's are also good for larger weights of grains.

Two of the 20kg caterer style buckets hold 25kg worth of grain.  I also have a standard size plastic garbage bin that I hold a 25kg bag of grain inside (I leave it in the bag).

I bought a basic two roller grain mill for $119.90 in August 2018 from Australian Home Brewing in Oakleigh (Vic).  They do not have it now.  Just a $198.90 version with a base.  Mine seems to be still going strong.  It only held about 2.5kg of grain at a time, so I made a cardboard hopper extender that holds at least 8kg of grain.

 

I paired the mill with an Ozito High Torque drill.  Bunnings used to carry them, but I could not find it in a recent search.  I also had to buy a timber base.

Cheers Shamus, always good advice, Cheers.

[Classic Brewing Co]

44 minutes ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

@Classic Brewing Co Phil - see below - this is sorta what I was alluding to wrt one more step to hafta manage that if you live in The Big Smoke you might be able to get others to complete cost-effectively for you maybe?

I have had my share of challenges mastering the milling step... and it even happens to the great ones amongst us...   Glad you got it sorted Sainter mate..@stquinto

it's a buggggger when things like this happen... and I think that we can all learn from @Shamus O'Sean Shamus point mentioned recently: "Start Early" haha... yes so maybe that's what you were doing Sainter getting ready for the next day haha but maybe even starting to mill a bit earlier might be wise as I cannot imagine the wrath  being poured upon you from above at 0300 mate !?! 

Thanks for your input IP always words of wisdom, I think for know it's best to let LBHS or Keg Land to store & mill grain because as you say everything is close handy & it eliminates storage problems not to mention any other problems that may arise.

Cheers

[Shamus O'Sean]

15 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

That is a good idea as the small hopper size on mine is a pain in the neck at times. It holds about 2.5-3kg, so I always have to top it up and do another run.

Just be aware, that to do it with one piece of cardboard, with only one join, you will need a big piece of carboard.  I started with the box my kegerator came in and used almost the whole piece.  Sketch below:

[stquinto]

4 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

Frank (Brisbane--Everton Park) and his beautiful Mashmaster Minimill.... or "Millmaster Grain Mill"...

Cheers for the tip IP. I’ve had my eye on that after seeing recommendations on here (from you I suspect) but the base price was bumped up quite a bit as soon as you put the currency into Euros. I just looked again and it was the same price as you fellas would pay but for a delivery to Europe, so you only pay the postage (100AU$) on top.

After my 3 AM débâcle I bit the bullet and ordered one. TBH  I’ve been taking more than an hour milling the grain, having to re-mill several times sometimes, and think some of my drop in OG was from the inconsistency of the crush. Those fluted rollers look the business. I can get semi-pro ones here that come from Germany for the same price if not more, but I’d rather send some business to a family business Down Under. I ain’t funding industry that runs on Russkie gas!

Edited April 10, 2022 by stquinto
Typo

[Aussiekraut]

6 minutes ago, stquinto said:

TBH  I’ve been taking more than an hour milling the grain, having to re-mill several times sometimes, and think some of my drop in OG was from the inconsistency of the crush. 

I had the same. I was missing the numbers by a fair margin. Then I noticed that when I threw some grains in the mill, some of them fell right through. Once I fixed up the mill, things went back to normal. But taking an hour or more is quite excessive. Even with my el cheapo mill, I am done in 5 minutes.

[Classic Brewing Co]

4 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

I had the same. I was missing the numbers by a fair margin. Then I noticed that when I threw some grains in the mill, some of them fell right through. Once I fixed up the mill, things went back to normal. But taking an hour or more is quite excessive. Even with my el cheapo mill, I am done in 5 minutes.

You guys are pretty well convincing me not to rush in & buy a grain mill, I need to get the AG process right first - I think that is enough to worry about ATM.

[stquinto]

4 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

I had the same. I was missing the numbers by a fair margin. Then I noticed that when I threw some grains in the mill, some of them fell right through. Once I fixed up the mill, things went back to normal. But taking an hour or more is quite excessive. Even with my el cheapo mill, I am done in 5 minutes.

Good point AK. With my one the screw holding the setting on one side of the adjustable roller comes loose immediately so if you hare not holding it tight your setting gets messed up as the roller loses it’s setting. With the other hand on the drill it ain’t easy. 
Looking on the bright side, I wrote back to beerco.com.au and asked them if they could throw in some Pride of Ringwood as I can’t source them here

[Classic Brewing Co]

Just now, stquinto said:

Good point AK. With my one the screw holding the setting on one side of the adjustable roller comes loose immediately so if you hare not holding it tight your setting gets messed up as the roller loses it’s setting. With the other hand on the drill it ain’t easy. 
Looking on the bright side, I wrote back to beerco.com.au and asked them if they could throw in some Pride of Ringwood as I can’t source them here

Great Hop Stquinta I use a lot of that - good old Aussie Hop, as you probably know, Coopers use that in Pale Ale & others. 

[stquinto]

3 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

You guys are pretty well convincing me not to rush in & buy a grain mill, I need to get the AG process right first - I think that is enough to worry about ATM.

Yeah, I would wait Phil, and read up on them. Plenty of stuff to get your head around and if you don’t need to worry about the mill then one less thing to go wrong

[Classic Brewing Co]

Just now, stquinto said:

Yeah, I would wait Phil, and read up on them. Plenty of stuff to get your head around and if you don’t need to worry about the mill then one less thing to go wrong

Agreed, I am starting No: 2 AG tomorrow, that's enough.

[stquinto]

3 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Great Hop Stquinta I use a lot of that - good old Aussie Hop, as you probably know, Coopers use that in Pale Ale & others. 

I know you can replace it but what with the yeast cultivation from Coopers and the fact that you ferment at ale temperatures, brewing kegs of Coopers will be my go-to brews for summer

[stquinto]

Just now, Classic Brewing Co said:

Agreed, I am starting No: 2 AG tomorrow, that's enough.

Good luck! I’m on to 4 and haven’t tasted one yet. Two have been long- fermenting Belgians and I’ waiting for fridge space to crack open the English Ale style one. At least it will be clear

[Aussiekraut]

1 hour ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

You guys are pretty well convincing me not to rush in & buy a grain mill, I need to get the AG process right first - I think that is enough to worry about ATM.

Nothing wrong with that. I started off buying milled grains and did a fair few batches this way. They come milled just as you need them and there is no messing about. My problem was that none of the 3 fairly local shops sell grains in decent amounts or have very limited variety. The good places are all at least a 40km drive away. Because you can't keep cracked grain for long, I decided to get a mill and buy things in larger amounts. I buy base malts in 25kg sacks, others in 5 or 10kg lots and specialty grains in 1-2kg bags. I am usually well stocked (but often still don't have what I need of course) these days. All up, I should have something like 80-90kg grain in the house  

[stquinto]

29 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

Nothing wrong with that. I started off buying milled grains and did a fair few batches this way. They come milled just as you need them and there is no messing about. My problem was that none of the 3 fairly local shops sell grains in decent amounts or have very limited variety. The good places are all at least a 40km drive away. Because you can't keep cracked grain for long, I decided to get a mill and buy things in larger amounts. I buy base malts in 25kg sacks, others in 5 or 10kg lots and specialty grains in 1-2kg bags. I am usually well stocked (but often still don't have what I need of course) these days. All up, I should have something like 80-90kg grain in the house  

If I bad a local brew shop I might buy it milled but I don’t.

I think I’m starting to get the hang of the GF40 (heads up to @ozdeviland all of you) Also my yeast starters are working out quite well after a few false starts.

Out of interest, how long can you keep your grain? I have about 70kgs also which I store in big drums. I keep yeast in the fridge and hops in the freezer, wouldn’t want any to go off…

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by stquinto
Typo

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, stquinto said:

Out of interest, how long can you keep your grain? I have about 70kgs also which I store in big drums.

I have some Carapils, Crystal Malt and Amber Malt that would be at least 3 years old.  I inherited it along with other malts from an old ex-brewer.  I have used up all of the other malts he sold me.  Some Pilsner, Pale Malt, American 2-row, Acidulated, Roast Barley.

Now, like @Aussiekraut, I buy Joe White Traditional Ale - 25kg and Joe White Pilsner - 25kg.  Munich, Vienna, Wheat in 5-10kg lots.  Other specialty malts in 1-2kg lots.  I got through my first 25kg of Traditional Ale in 7 months.  Halfway through my first 25kg Pilsner after about 4 months.  I doubt I will keep them for much more than that.  It would slow down if I had more base malts, but that's enough for me at the moment.

[Pezzza]

5 hours ago, stquinto said:

I bit the bullet

Mate the bit of kit is just pure legendary... it really is a beautiful thing.... funny I was just looking my earlier comms up... he - Francis - aka Frank -  sent me an email 3 years ago that he had a customer - some festive Micro that was milling 1.5 tonnes of grain a week with the festive little fella - so @stquinto mate there's the challenge... I am throwing down the Swiss gauntlet - once it arrives - can you mill more than 1.5 Tonnes a week without @SWMBO roaring downstairs at 0300 to see WTF you are up to?! 

[Pezzza]

3 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

Because you can't keep cracked grain for long, I decided to get a mill and buy things in larger amounts

Yeah @Aussiekraut but you are also brewing for half of SE Qld - well - and your good Bavarian self we must remember... 

[Pezzza]

52 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

2 hours ago, stquinto said:

Out of interest, how long can you keep your grain? I have about 70kgs also which I store in big drums.

I have some Carapils, Crystal Malt and Amber Malt that would be at least 3 years old. 

Yeah this is a very good discussion point all and @Shamus O'Sean and @stquinto and @Aussiekraut above...

I don't have too much base malt lounging around for way too long... but some of the speciality stuff - which is grain in zip lock bags - kept cool in a very small degree of temperature change - and in containers - some of which esp X malt -- they are a bit long in the tooth - I reckon the malt smells a little old - slightly 'not quite as fresh' as the new stuff... but it's probably more than 2 years since I obtained it.... I am using it and I really think that yer not noticing any negative influences...  it is also only a very small percentage... mmm but this discussion is making me think it might be time to get moving on it... 

Roasted barley does not seem to change in the same way...  and well some of the grains being added anyway are nearly just a colour influence.  In general I reckon that 12-18 months is fine when kept nice and cool in pretty stable cool dry storage with minimal temp range fluctuation - maybe 24 months kept stable in that dry low temp range fluctuation..

From vague memory the use-by dates on Voyager are 12 months from malting and for Weyermann it was 24 months...  anyway... I think that the old maxim of Fresh-is-Best does apply... and also keeping the malted grain like it was expensive wine... nice and cool and dry and not with massive temp fluctuations - besides protecting it from all the bugs and grubs and mice and rats and moths and every other biological enemy : )

And yeah @Classic Brewing Co that is the beauty of getting someone else to supply and mill it for you - but worthwhile checking that the service provider is not offloading old oxidised heat affected crappy malted grain onto  you... and even better down there in SA maybe seeing with own eyes the bag of lovely Coopers Malt that they are extracting the grain from -- with the date of production on it -- prior to being put through the mill : )

Voyager have a festive little BarCode you can scan and it will tell you when the malting was done and where the paddock is whence the harvested grain came...

 

 

 

 

[Classic Brewing Co]

7 hours ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

And yeah @Classic Brewing Co that is the beauty of getting someone else to supply and mill it for you - but worthwhile checking that the service provider is not offloading old oxidised heat affected crappy malted grain onto  you... and even better down there in SA maybe seeing with own eyes the bag of lovely Coopers Malt that they are extracting the grain from -- with the date of production on it -- prior to being put through the mill : )

Voyager have a festive little BarCode you can scan and it will tell you when the malting was done and where the paddock is whence the harvested grain came...

Good advice IP, that's worth knowing, the place in Adelaide that I got the last lot in actually was housed in a bag that held grain & I noticed the dates on the back were quite current, however that is something worth following up on. I am sure there would be some LBHS that would do that, that's why I am very wary of specials or reduced to clear stock, unless I can verify the dates I won't buy it.

[Marty_G]

@Classic Brewing Co I have come to this mill conversation a bit late but I would like to add that I have worked at  the LHBS on Saturdays for over a year now and I am surprised by how few brewers mill their own grain.   

Those that do will buy a bag of their preferred base and when they are making a brew just come in and buy the specialties they need for the recipe. 

Some of the guys just phone the recipe  in advance so we can have it ready when they come in.  Those that don't do that are the ones who like to come in and have a chat while we do it.  We cater mostly for fresh brews with 50 grains and about the same number of hops and yeasts.  It is a great set up.  I have got to meet loads of very good brewers and picked up a lot of small tips.