Fermenting under pressure

[iBooz2]

On 8/11/2020 at 2:11 AM, ChristinaS1 said:

Thanks to @MartyG1525230263 and @iBooz2 I think I figured out the cause of the off flavours of my last pressure fermented brew (see the "Stale flavour" thread). 

I am by no means an expert re your off flavours / high pressure result here Christina, just thinking out aloud that all.  All my pressure ferments have been with Windsor, Nottingham or CCA yeasts and everyone so far turned out superbly.  Have not tried W-34/70 yet as the Fermzilla has a pre-booked queue of batches for a while yet, but may finish off the lager season with a pressure cooked one just for the hell of it.

Cheers - AL

[iBooz2]

On 8/3/2020 at 4:18 AM, ChristinaS1 said:

Question. After fermentation is complete, do you see the needle on the pressure gauge drop? Mine has and this does not seem right. Wonder if there is a leak somewhere? What do you guys think?

Yes mine drops too and even further and faster during the cold crash period because of the amplified absorption effect Marty mentions. That's why nearing the end of the ferment I close off the valve to build pressure up enough so there is some left at the end of cold crash week to push some beer into a few stubbies.  Then I begin close transferring the remainder to a keg.  Works well so far.

Cheers - AL

[iBooz2]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:35 PM, MartyG1525230263 said:

I am pretty sure that @ChristinaS1 has done some dry hopping under pressure maybe she will reply. 

What I do is schedule my dry hop (say BD + 5) by first of all not allowing the pressure to get too high too quickly, say hold it at about 7.5 psi until the dry hop day.  Then slowly wind the valve back until you get the pressure back down to near zero, does not matter if you do this in steps over the course of an hour or afternoon, just do it a bit at a time as you think of it.  Do it too quick and you will stir up the trub and get a massive foam up.

Once down to low psi pull the PRV, remove the spunding valve assembly and remove that connector to that port hole.  Do not take the whole lid off.

Drop your dry hops down through the open port hole that you just opened (use an appropriate sized sanitised funnel if required), spray the thread area with sanitiser, screw the connector back on again, reconnect spunding valve, and adjust the pressure butterfly maybe a turn or two.

Give the FV a bit of a wobble around in a circular motion to distribute the dry hop and the job is done.

Check the spunding valve a bit later to make sure you get the pressure right up to the top where you want it for the remainder of the process (15 psi +)

I do the above process even though I have the collection container at the bottom on mine, which is solely reserved for yeast harvesting. 

Dry hop from the top.

Cheers - AL

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by iBooz2

[iBooz2]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:33 PM, MitchBastard said:

@PaddyBrew2 cheers for that! I probably should have said 27L conical. Although I’m not overly concerned about harvesting yeast, I like the idea of dry hopping with that part of the vessel. Also, @Bearded Burbler makes a good point about racking yeast off. Might be an idea....

 

 

might be a silly question but how does one take a grav reading when using either of those vessels?

@MitchBastard Simple. 

Just hook up a line to the connector with the floating dip tube and allow the pressure to push it out. 

I have a short piece of line with an in line tap (push in fitting type) which I also use to fill a few stubbies on kegging day.

Just make sure tap is closed before attaching your sample line/hose. 

You may need to flush / allow a little bit of trub out of dip line before filling you hydro tube in order to get a proper reading sample.

Cheers - AL

[Pezzza]

On 8/19/2020 at 8:54 PM, iBooz2 said:

@MitchBastard Simple. 

Just hook up a line to the connector with the floating dip tube and allow the pressure to push it out. 

I have a short piece of line with an in line tap (push in fitting type) which I also use to fill a few stubbies on kegging day.

Just make sure tap is closed before attaching your sample line/hose. 

You may need to flush / allow a little bit of trub out of dip line before filling you hydro tube in order to get a proper reading sample.

Cheers - AL

Boozer - you seem to be on top of the Pressure Cooker mate... I have one with that trub/yeast pot at the bottom... find the getting of the top lid off and the trub pot off hard going...

any hints ?   Think you may have provided @PaddyBrew2 Paddy a bit of advice a while ago - certainly need to drop the pressure - but I still find screwing lid/pot off the rest of the unit quite hard going... 

Any new hints would be appreciated.

[iBooz2]

@Bearded Burbler 

Hey Burbler – ok I will try to help.

When I first got my fermzilla 27 L, yep did struggle to get things done up so they would not leak and then again to undo them for cleaning etc.  Generally if you are having trouble un-doing bits then you probably have over tightened them in the first place.

Initially I made a few mistakes.

1. Doing the top SS handles / ring up too tight and this distorted the top opening and made it hard to fit the top then seal and screw on the top ring, hence having to do the lid up super tight just so it would not lose pressure. A quote from KL website which I found after much mucking around.

 ” It is also important to remember not to overtighten the stainless steel handles that may have come with your FermZilla. Over tightening will cause the opening to warp and not seal. The Handles should be able to freely rotate around the neck with little resistance”.

2. Mine had the smaller “O’ ring at the top as it was purchased before they made the engineering change December 2019.  The thicker “O” ring makes all the difference with top seal and with just the slightest smear of food grade lube and a couple of uses, makes all the difference.  When you do both the above you will only have to tighten the top by hand (two handed grab and rotate).  If the Fermzilla is full of wort say and sitting in its stand as normal you just need to grab the top with both your hands and tighten. Do not tighten with the tool, hands should be enough.  See new "O" ring here.

3. Similar with the catch bottle at the bottom.  If you have the butterfly assembly properly tightened to the FV then the catch bottle only needs to be done up by hand and then maybe a 10 or 15 degree nip-up tighter with the tool but only if needed.  Sort of like what you would do with a new oil filter on your car.  Again some food grade lube on the “o” ring, but just a tiny smear not too much. Maybe just a slight finger-smear on the threads as well.   It’s easier to tighten or undo this catch bottle if there is some wort or cleaning liquid or flushing water in the FV.  When trying to undo this part I usually do it when it is being rinsed out with the garden hose.  Try part-filling the FV with rinsing water and use the tool to crack the bottle seal with a quick undo jerk of the tool handle.   If the FV itself tends to move then close the butterfly handle and put the handle between the vertical legs of the stand to stop the FV from spinning.  Then it should not take much of a sudden movement with the tool to crack the seal and after that do the rest by hand.

4. I test the tightness and sealing of all the bits during the sanitising phase.  Do everything up only hand tight, put some sanitiser in say 1 and 1/2 litres and slosh it all around.  Pressurize it with CO2 to say 10 psi, watch for leaks or bubbles around the catch bottle area if any just nip up the bottle a tad.  When no leaks down the bottom, invert the FV in the stand and look for leaks around the lid, if leaks or bubbles, nip up the top ring a tad.  You may have to leave the FV one way or the other for say 15” to prove properly.  I then push the sanitiser out via any ports or connectors attached so as to sanitise the inside workings of those parts.

Concentrate on having the catch bottle sealed just tight enough first as you can always tweak the top or test the top seal with a pressure gauge connected to one of the ports whilst the FV is vertical even with wort in it.  Do not invert it with the pressure gauge connected for obvious reasons.

After you have done it a few times you will get to feel just how snug / tight you need to have things done up and this will be surprising  less than you otherwise would have thought.

The other thing I did with my stand was to get some spiral plastic wire conduit stuff and cut 4 x 300 mm lengths then wrap them around the part of the stand that come into contact with the FV.  This gives it better grip and will prolong the life of the FV from wear and tear due to pressure up  / down etc.  See pics.

Cheers - AL

Edited August 22, 2020 by iBooz2

[Pezzza]

On 8/22/2020 at 9:23 PM, iBooz2 said:

Hey Burbler – ok I will try to help.

Mate you might be in Lock Down but you are a Champion!

Good stuff.

And I think everything you say has been spot on re over-tightening and stuff... with one of my offtake fittings leaking... so will try to do as you suggest above and give this puppy more of a chance...

As the results were very good...

Thanks Boozer and hope the whole thing down there calms down quick mate... at least you have GREAT beer to keep you going!!!

Tx mate

[kmar92]

I am still struggling with a 27lt conical fermzilla to get a good seal on it. I think that this is my 4th attempt, I have had leaks from the lid (fixed), lid ports (fixed) and now the collection jar ports that are currently under pressure test. Hopefully I have it sealed now as I would like to get it fermenting, I have heard so many great reports about pressure fermenting I am keen to try it out!

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, kmar92 said:

I am still struggling with a 27lt conical fermzilla to get a good seal on it. I think that this is my 4th attempt, I have had leaks from the lid (fixed), lid ports (fixed) and now the collection jar ports that are currently under pressure test. Hopefully I have it sealed now as I would like to get it fermenting, I have heard so many great reports about pressure fermenting I am keen to try it out!

Mate I had the exact same sequence of seal failures... but in the end it did come good... I think that the conical bubble is really way to soft... just my own call...

[kmar92]

20 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Mate I had the exact same sequence of seal failures... but in the end it did come good... I think that the conical bubble is really way to soft... just my own call...

BB it has been maintaining 1 bar of pressure now for 3 hours so I think she is ready for a brew!

[Pezzza]

23 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

BB it has been maintaining 1 bar of pressure now for 3 hours so I think she is ready for a brew!

GOLD!!!! KM

In the end I just went........ah well FFFKit.... even if it is not under pressure - it is brewing so WGAF...

Then despite all the seals and fitting ffffkup it brewed out as a Lager warm and under 18-22 deg C  and 12-15 PSI or so and ended up a great beer...

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Bearded Burbler

[kmar92]

So after some frigging around to get the 27lt conical fermenter to hold pressure I finally have a brew in it.

Just an extract brew with Morgans Golden Saaz Pilsener with 1.5kg Coopers Light Dry Malt and 500g Dextrose with Morgan Premium European Lager yeast. Sitting @ 20.6 and I am waiting for some action on the pressure gauge with the attached spunding valve. I have the spunding valve set at 11.5psi.

 

[iBooz2]

Just a thought @kmar92 Reconfigure your pressure gauge / spunding valve assembly so that the TEE goes vertical from the pressure in connection straight through and down to the spunding valve.  Your pressure gauge should come off at right angles to allow any condensate to drop through to the spunding valve at the bottom.

The way you have it rigged up at the moment the condensate will dribble down into the TEE and then some will find its way further downhill into your pressure gauge and possibly stuff it.

Cheers - AL

[kmar92]

Thanks Al I will try that. I had a problem with clearance to start with so that is why I did it the way that it is but I think that I can rotate the lines of the Duotights to do what you say.

[kmar92]

After adjusting it I now have the pressure gauge well above the spunding valve and above the line so any condensate will drain to the spunding valve rather than the gauge.

[Marty_G]

17 hours ago, kmar92 said:

I have the spunding valve set at 11.5psi.

That is an usual way to set a the valve and gauge this is how mine is set up.  

[kmar92]

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

That is an usual way to set a the valve and gauge this is how mine is set up.  

Thanks Marty but as you can see from the photo below I have a clearance problem in the ferment fridge. I have adjusted it so that the gauge is uphill from the T-piece so it should be safe for this brew. When the Fermzilla is empty I will play around with it again and make a permanent setup.

It all seems to be working fine on this 1st brew in the Fermzilla and is holding pressure well at just under 12.5psi and the brew is chugging along nicely.

[Rafael Pestano]

Hi folks, I'm new to the forum but found this topic very interesting with lots of good stuff, congrats!

Small doubt, do you need to release the pressure to serving pressure when you're taking a hydrometer sample through the picnic tap?

Also, about carbonation, is it a good idea to raise the pressure to something like 25psi during the cold crash to get it fully carbed after the 3 days of cold crash?

I'm about to get my hands on the all-rounder so it will be very useful for me, thanks!

Edited September 8, 2020 by Rafael Pestano

[iBooz2]

@Rafael Pestano Rafael, I keep my pressure low (2.5 - 5 psi) for first few days as I usually dry hop commando on BD + 4 or 5 via the gas port and have to let all the pressure out for that.

Being low pressure you can take a hydro sample easy via your picnic tap.  I do this on BD+1 once ferment has started then leave the sample in the tube in the same environment so you can monitor the gravity as it progresses down towards FG without having to take another sample and waste precious beer. 

That way you have two FV's fermenting the same beer.  It just that one has a hydrometer in it.  

Once the dry hop (if any) is done and dusted then let the pressure build up.  I usually let it get to about 15 psi for a while and then when doing a D-Rest for a couple of days get the pressure up higher or as high as you can.

The reason for this is when it chills down it will absorb the CO2 and the pressure will drop.  After about 7 days at 2 C my pressure is down to around 7.5 - 10 psi which is just enough for me to bottle say 12 stubbies using the stored pressure.  After the stubbies have been drawn off I keg the rest using the closed transfer method which manly uses gravity to fill the keg once the flow has started and the very low pressure of CO2 in the empty keg get pushed back into the fermzilla via the gas port.

Anything less than 10 psi at the start of cold crash will tend to cave in the fermzilla bottle slightly which is undesirable.

Cheers - AL

[Rafael Pestano]

 

Quote

That way you have two FV's fermenting the same beer.  It just that one has a hydrometer in it.  

This is quite interesting, I'll definitely give a try on that! Have you compared the FG from the sample to see if it matches with the finished beer?

Quote

Anything less than 10 psi at the start of cold crash will tend to cave in the fermzilla bottle slightly which is undesirable.

You mean because of negative pressure inside FV?

Thank you @iBooz2!

[Shamus O'Sean]

14 minutes ago, Rafael Pestano said:

 Have you compared the FG from the sample to see if it matches with the finished beer?

I do this all the time. Tube sample is always within a point or two of the actual fermenter.  I always take a final sample to check.  Often the two readings are exactly the same. 

[iBooz2]

54 minutes ago, Rafael Pestano said:

 

This is quite interesting, I'll definitely give a try on that! Have you compared the FG from the sample to see if it matches with the finished beer?

You mean because of negative pressure inside FV?

Thank you @iBooz2!

The pressure never really goes negative otherwise the CO2 will come back out of your beer to make up the difference.  It does drop to zero or slightly less and tries to suck in anything from anywhere.  I have a one way gas/liquid check valve on my spunding valve / blow off tube setup which goes down into a bottle of sanitiser.  When starting the cold crash at too low a pressure it will eventually suck the sanitizer up towards the spunding valve and gauge.  I have even seen sanitiser up past the one way check valve and nearly into my pressure gauge so don't think the one way check valve is actually working all that well.

As Shamus says, yep one last fresh test which is more of a sniff and taste test than a new hydrometer test but reading always close enough not to even bother doing this at all.  The parallel FV thing works for me.

Cheers - AL

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, iBooz2 said:

then leave the sample in the tube in the same environment so you can monitor the gravity as it progresses down towards FG without having to take another sample and waste precious beer. 

Makes sense... but am trying to work out the practicality of it...

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I do this all the time.

22 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

The parallel FV thing works for me.

So are you guys running a second FV or just a jar/hydro tube with similar bit of brew tapped off early.... and similar temps etc for the hydro testing?

But keeping it without influence of any wild yeasts?

[Shamus O'Sean]

6 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

So are you guys running a second FV or just a jar/hydro tube with similar bit of brew tapped off early.... and similar temps etc for the hydro testing?

But keeping it without influence of any wild yeasts?

Hydro-tube (one piece) with some of the brew tapped off around day 3.  Left in temp controlled freezer beside the fermenter.

Could a wild yeast get in there?  If it can get in the freezer, I guess so.  There might even be thingies in the freezer from previous ferments.  I keep it pretty clean, but there is the odd drop from another brew from time to time.

[Pezzza]

9 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hydro-tube (one piece) with some of the brew tapped off around day 3. 

Cool.  Thanks Shamus!  Is very practical!   Do you cover with alfoil or other?

I do have a bit of a funny story around this - I had this amazing beaut beer - and it actually did turn out gold in the keg and few bottles... but was so impressed with it that I had squeezed out the last FV dribble scrapings... not enough buggger... so topped up the last little bottled with the hydro test dross... all into a Flensburger little swingtop with a Coopers Lolly for second ferment.... Few months later proudly took it to a mate's and was waxing lyrical ha ha about how legendary this beer was - and it turned into a massive gusher... ha ha... probably would have been a great saison?  There was about an inch left in the bottle when the fountain stopped ha ha!?  For some unknown reason I popped the top over the sink ha ha thank Goodness!

I suspect you guys have got nice glass sample tubes and sterilise them well.... my two last lovely glass hydro cylinders are all broken and am back with the Coopers Plazzi tube ha ha with the fancy schmancy glass hydro ha ha!?