Fermenting under pressure

[Titan]

Biggest thing for me is some yeast will not tolarate pressure ferment. A quote from the article "One thing that should be noted is that while pressurized fermentations retards growth of yeast cells with many strains, which provides positive characteristics, there are some yeast strains that do not seem to do well in pressurized fermentations and shut down. These strains that do not do well in this environment are generally ones that are traditionally used in open fermentations, such as some British and Belgian ale strains"

[Titan]

Disclaimer, the above information was published without the permission of BYO magazine. I do not understand the laws on sharing information. Maybe coopers admin can delete this post.

[Titan]

Hey all update from 2 weeks ago. I set down 2 toucan porters in both my fermentasaurus and fitted the pressure kits and left them to ferment at ambient for 2 weeks no spunding. Just poured a sample from one of them using my party gun. Pretty happy with how they have turned out. This one is the briess unhopped porter extract with a coopers dark ale can.

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

8 minutes ago, Titan said:

Hey all update from 2 weeks ago. I set down 2 toucan porters in both my fermentasaurus and fitted the pressure kits and left them to ferment at ambient for 2 weeks no spunding. Just poured a sample from one of them using my party gun. Pretty happy with how they have turned out. This one is the briess unhopped porter extract with a coopers dark ale can.

Still haven’t got the Christmas decos away yet @Titan Good lookin beer though.

Edited March 20, 2020 by NewBrews

[Titan]

Nah mate not yet. Will have some time at easter. Anyhow second sample from the other toucan porter was poured directly from the fv. Same result as the first from clarity and head. Both beers taste great but heres the kicker. Transfered both to serving kegs and they are almost flat again.

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

That’s gotta hurt. Turbulence in the transfer? Did they froth up much?

[Titan]

8 hours ago, NewBrews said:

That’s gotta hurt. Turbulence in the transfer? Did they froth up much?

Yes when i was burping receiving keg at about 12l foam was coming out of the valve.

[Marty_G]

36 minutes ago, Titan said:

Yes when i was burping receiving keg at about 12l foam was coming out of the valve.

That is the value of the spunding valve.  my ferment pressure of 12.5psi drops to just under 5 psi when I cold crash.  I put the spunding valve, set at 3 psi, on the receiving keg  and the transfer is slow and steady and have no issue with frothing. 

[Marty_G]

Brewed today and pitched a new packet of MJ15 Empire Ale about 3.5 hours ago at 29^o .  Set to ferment at 20 and is now 23 and the pressure is already at 7.5 psi.  Really wiramimg to this pressure fermenting.  Think I may do a Lager soon.  That is when pressure ferment really comes into its own. 

[ChristinaS1]

Just put on my first ale to be fermented in a keg, with a spunding valve. I added dry hops to the keg right away, when I pitch the yeast, to both capture some bio-transformation and reduce oxidation. I am using MJ's M44 West Coast Ale yeast, which is able to do bio-transformation. The hops are contained in a mesh cylinder which makes them easy to fish out / remove.

In his video on fermenting under pressure David Heath says that, when using ale yeast, to wait with applying pressure until near the end of fermentation, to allow the yeast to form esters. Since I want esters I will wait with applying pressure until I remove the dry hops, on day three or four. Due to the lack of pressure, there should be no boil over when I open the lid.

Not sure yet how much pressure I will apply after I remove the hops. I am considering 10PSI, because I have not this yeast before, but part of me wants to use 15PSI, or even 20PSI, to get a jump start on carbonating the beer. After fermentation I will CC the keg, and add gelatin 24 hours later. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[Marty_G]

4 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Not sure yet how much pressure I will apply after I remove the hops. I am considering 10PSI, because I have not this yeast before, but part of me wants to use 15PSI, or even 20PSI, to get a jump start on carbonating the beer. After fermentation I will CC the keg, and add gelatin 24 hours later. 

In conversations I have had with pressure brewers it is common for 1 bar or 15psi to be used.  Not sure why. Maybe it is because it is easy to set on the spunding valve. I use 12.5 psi and after a few glitches with my 1st brew have been very happy with my results.  I am about to do a Stout and then a cider under pressure both with Voss Kveik.  

 

[ChristinaS1]

11 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

In conversations I have had with pressure brewers it is common for 1 bar or 15psi to be used.  Not sure why. Maybe it is because it is easy to set on the spunding valve. I use 12.5 psi and after a few glitches with my 1st brew have been very happy with my results.  I am about to do a Stout and then a cider under pressure both with Voss Kveik.  

Yes, 15PSI seems to be pretty common. I have yet to go that high. So far I have done them all at 10PSI, as David Heath said that is the sweet spot for many of strains. The reason I'd like to try 20PSI is because if the pressure is 20PSI at room temp, when you chill the keg it drops to pretty much serving temp; there is no need to top up the pressure from a tank. Well that is the theory anyway. I have yet to test it. 

Sounds like you are getting lots of experience with pressure fermentation. Are all of your brews pressure ferments now @MartyG1525230263? About half of mine are. But I recently bought a third keg, so that ratio may be going up to two thirds, depending on how this ale goes.

For this current brew with ale yeast I toyed with the idea of shutting the spunding valve completely after I remove the biotransformation hops, to capture any remaining CO2 production, along the lines of what German brewers do. Not that I want to be a stickler about only using endogenously produced CO2. I will be opening the keg again later when I fine with gelatin, so I will have to re-pressurize with tank gas then. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[Marty_G]

35 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Are all of your brews pressure ferments now

No not all yet.  But I think it will be the norm for me soon.  My 1st Kveik ferment I did at ambient and a heat belt to gauge what it does. Today I put down a cider made of AJ, I read loads of old threads and you're a bit of a cider guru, and used a Kveik slurry to get loads of dead yeast cells as nutrient. It is now sitting at 5psi 5 hours later.  So will see how that goes.  

The next beer will be a stout at 12.5 psi with Kveik but then I will be doing a historic recipe from 1917 which uses a European Ale yeast, read Belgium Ale yeast for me, and that will be done old school in the ferment fridge in the stainless non pressurised fermenter.  But yes i am heading toward majority of my brews pressure fermented for a while at least. 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[ChristinaS1]

34 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Today I put down a cider made of AJ....and used a Kveik slurry to get loads of dead yeast cells as nutrient. It is now sitting at 5psi 5 hours later.  So will see how that goes.  

Cider fermented with Kveik yeast? Great idea! I will be very interested to hear how that turns out, although I would be temped to wait with applying pressure until near the end of fermentation, to get the maximum amount of esters. With Kveik yeast there would be no need to age the cider, as you do when using wine or champagne yeast.

I never tried it but kegging seems like an ideal way to carbonate cider: no need to back sweeten with non-fermentable sweetener, or pasteurize bottles.  Almost makes me wish I had not sold my little 6L keg.  

Cheers,

Christina.

[Marty_G]

59 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Cider fermented with Kveik yeast? Great idea! I will be very interested to hear how that turns out, although I would be temped to wait with applying pressure until near the end of fermentation, to get the maximum amount of esters. With Kveik yeast there would be no need to age the cider, as you do when using wine or champagne yeast.

I over looked the ester production so just backed the pressure right of to about 1psi.

 

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I never tried it but kegging seems like an ideal way to carbonate cider: no need to back sweeten with non-fermentable sweetener, or pasteurize bottles. 

Why will I not have to back sweeten? 

[ChristinaS1]

37 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Why will I not have to back sweeten? 

Because you can cold crash it as it approaches the FG you want. Would take a bit of experimentation though. Might be tricky with Kveik yeast, because it is so fast.

Alternatively you could let it ferment out but add some light or wheat DME to the juice, or steep some crystal malt, which will leave behind a bit of residual sweetness. This is called graff.  Graffs are sometimes hopped. If I were doing this, I would dry hop with a small amount of cryo hops. Cryo hops have less bract and impart cleaner flavour. I bet Amarillo would be a good choice.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited April 11, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Marty_G]

8 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Because you can cold crash it as it approaches the FG you want. Would take a bit of experimentation though. Might be tricky with Kveik yeast, because it is so fast.

I have actually diluted the AJ to reduce the SG to give me the the ABV I wanted. So I will have to back sweeten.  

[ChristinaS1]

4 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

I have actually diluted the AJ to reduce the SG to give me the the ABV I wanted. So I will have to back sweeten.  

Too bad. Maybe next time.

One of those gadgets that monitors the SG electronically would be great for figuring out when to cold crash a cider. Someone else has been posting about it in another thread.

Cheers,

Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

On 4/10/2020 at 3:03 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

Just put on my first ale to be fermented in a keg, with a spunding valve. I added dry hops to the keg right away, when I pitch the yeast, to both capture some bio-transformation and reduce oxidation. I am using MJ's M44 West Coast Ale yeast, which is able to do bio-transformation. The hops are contained in a mesh cylinder which makes them easy to fish out / remove.

In his video on fermenting under pressure David Heath says that, when using ale yeast, to wait with applying pressure until near the end of fermentation, to allow the yeast to form esters. Since I want esters I will wait with applying pressure until I remove the dry hops, on day three or four. Due to the lack of pressure, there should be no boil over when I open the lid.

Not sure yet how much pressure I will apply after I remove the hops. I am considering 10PSI, because I have not this yeast before, but part of me wants to use 15PSI, or even 20PSI, to get a jump start on carbonating the beer. After fermentation I will CC the keg, and add gelatin 24 hours later. 

Removed the hops today, seven hours short of four days since pitching. This yeast is laggy (same source as BRY-97, one of the two Ballantine yeasts*) and took 28 hours to show activity in the blow off tube. Blow off tube was still active when I removed the yeast but was slowing down. Purged the keg and applied 10PSI with the spunding valve. Increased the temp by 2C.

So far this method of dry hopping seems to be working well. There was absolutely no boil over when I opened the keg. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited April 14, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Marty_G]

Monday: Made and 1051 OG Porter. I pitched it with a slurry of  Kveik Voss at 15psi @ 33c at 3pm. Activity started with in 2 hours was at 15psi within 4 hours. This morning it has finished. Am loving this pressure ferment.

Did a cider on Saturday at 15 psi with Kveik at same temp in a 13 litre keg.  it finished yesterday. Pressure transferred to a cornie keg to clean and remove some spices from the 13 litre keg it was fermented in, then pressure transferred back. Easy as and no chance of oxidation. Loving it I am converted to both.  This will be my new norm. 

I can only see my self using a conventional method when I have a specific yeast I want flavours from. Even then I will pressurise via the spunding valve when the SG gets to the 1020 mark so it can finish under pressure. I can then transfers from the fermentation keg and avoid any chance of oxidation.  This is a great way to brew.  

[Marty_G]

Transferring from pressure ferment to keg.  Love the ease of closed transfer. The keg was cleaned then sanitised with  ~ 200ml StarSan mix which was left in the keg. The keg was pressurised to about 5psi and left sitting. It was then used to clean my picnic tap when I took samples from the fermenter.  Today before filling the picnic tap was used to empty the remaining StarSan from the keg before filling under pressure.  I think the best thing about this is the fact that once the wort is pitched with yeast there in minimal chance of infection or oxidation as the spunding valve allows for the purging of the head space.  The fermenter will now be cleaned have a StarSan solution put in it to sterilise and pressurised d to 5psi to be used to clean the transfer hoses etc.   If you can gather the resources I highly recommend pressure fermentation.  This beer went from brew day to keg in 4 days.  

[Marty_G]

Another Kveik under pressure going gangbusters. An American Pale Ale OG 1050 slurry pitched at 1.30pm at 40C today and 5 hours later it is at 10psi. 

[ChristinaS1]

On 4/10/2020 at 3:03 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

Just put on my first ale to be fermented in a keg, with a spunding valve. I added dry hops to the keg right away, when I pitch the yeast, to both capture some bio-transformation and reduce oxidation. I am using MJ's M44 West Coast Ale yeast, which is able to do bio-transformation. The hops are contained in a mesh cylinder which makes them easy to fish out / remove.

Just wanted to give an update on this batch. FYI, this is the recipe:

Pandemic Denali Ale

 

1.7kg Coopers Lager

1kg light DME

10gm Cascade x 5 min

34gm Denali hop stand x 20 min 2gm/L)

22gm Denali at pitching (in keg) for biotransformation X 3 days enclosed in mesh cylinder (1.3g/L) 

10gm MJ's M44 West Coast Ale dry pitched

10mL Claritferm

17L

 

As I mentioned earlier, the yeast was very laggy and as a result I had to wait almost 4 days before I could take the hops out, as I had to wait for fermentation to die down. The batch was kegged on April 21. It is a disappointment. Initially it was quite piney and had a faint pineapple note. I would rate the flavour as "just okay," but nothing special. As time has gone on, the pineapple has receded and the pine has become more prominent. It is also a bit resinous and astringent, and tastes like it was in contact with hops too long. While it is true that I don't have experience with this hop, I think my method of adding the dry hops at yeast pitching time might be to blame for my dissatisfaction with this brew. I don't think I will try this method again, or if I do, I will use a faster yeast, like the kit yeast (Coopers dry ale yeast), so that I can remove the hops sooner.

 

I still have some of this hop left. Next time I use it, it will be post fermentation addition....I think it could stand some citrus, so will try pairing it with Citra. 

 

Cheers,

 

Christina. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Marty_G]

I have a solution of sorts for the dry hop conundrum unfortunately it will only work for those who keg.   On the day of transfer to the keg make a  hop tea and put that in the keg before the transfer.  I have tried it on an IPA and it worked a treat. I made it several hours before I transferred to the keg so that I could get as much of the oils out of the hops as possible.  I did not use a huge amount though only 25g of pellets in 300mls of 65c water in a coffee plunger. Good thing though is it worked. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

I was gifted a Fermzilla All Rounder the other day.  

Really looking forward to giving it a run. Just got to grab a few bits and pieces. 

And fit a brew in.