Fermenting under pressure

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, Peter walker said:

well i was thinking of using a beergun

mmmmm.... am thinking that filling from gun into bottle might be challenging re frothing... but you are doing it prior to gassing up so maybe ok?

[Lettucegrove]

14 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

mmmmm.... am thinking that filling from gun into bottle might be challenging re frothing... but you are doing it prior to gassing up so maybe ok?

Yeah I got froth when transferring to the bottle. Mine was partially carbonated. 

[Pezzza]

Oi @Red devil 44 Red - check this really good thread - lots of stuff re your questions... 

[Lettucegrove]

Has anyone used US05 when fermenting under pressure? I ask because I recently did a brew with it and it has turned out terrible. I left it to self pressurise, could this be where I went wrong, should I have added a bit of initial pressure to stop the ester production? The end result tastes like I fermented hot.

@MartyG1525230263 any ideas?

[Pezzza]

2 hours ago, Lettucegrove said:

Has anyone used US05 when fermenting under pressure?

Hey there Lettuce - I have so far only been using W34/70 as it runs quicker that way as assisted by @kmar92 one of my pressure FV coaches ; )

I use US05 plenty but as I can often attain low 20s in Larder or in brew fridge 18 easy I have not worried...

 

What sort of ferment temp were you rolling at - maybe they were quite high?

From memory I have tickled the pressure up to 7PSI to begin all my brews in the PFV....  

[Lettucegrove]

Just now, Graubart said:

Hey there Lettuce - I have so far only been using W34/70 as it runs quicker that way as assisted by @kmar92 one of my pressure FV coaches ; )

I use US05 plenty but as I can often attain low 20s in Larder or in brew fridge 18 easy I have not worried...

 

What sort of ferment temp were you rolling at - maybe they were quite high?

From memory I have tickled the pressure up to 7PSI to begin all my brews in the PFV....  

It was ambient here in SEQ a couple of weeks ago so maybe between 25-30C. The thing that baffles me is that I too normally use W34/70 and ferment under pressure at ambient temps with no problems. I have always let the pressure build naturally as well. My thoughts were that if a lager yeast can handle this regime surely an ale yeast will too.

[Pezzza]

I vaguely remember that @MartyG1525230263 Marty had said he had hit the wall with fusel alc flavours at 30 deg C... and had experienced not such good flavours at that higher temp even tho it was under pressure.... Marty?   Think that was with W34/70....

 

My latest Münchner Helles reached around 26 (self-heating as ferment is exothermic) but was under pressure... and it turned out just great.

I think that @kmar92 KMar said he is ok around 23-24 routinely... w W34/70 again... KMar?

I reckon if you are going hot @Lettucegrove - then you should certainly crank the pressure early... down here when I hit 26 it was low 20s to begin with - but I had pressurized already...

So if you are looking at a warmer time ahead - and noting the ferment brings its own heat - probs better to pressure up to begin with... even just like 7-10PSI

 

The bigger question of whether W34/70 or US05 would throw unwanted unhappy flavours when too hot and not under pressure - that is a very good question.

@ChristinaS1 Christina any thoughts on this one?

 

I reckon the good learning @Lettucegrove you have helped with is - if it is looking like being a warm few days ahead - then pump up - pump up - pump the pressure ; )

As - well - we all know via PV=nRT the Ideal Gas Law that pumping up the Volume is not going to help... we need to pump the Pressure ; )

(as opposed to Pump up the Volume 

Pump up the volume
Pump up the volume
Pump up the volume
Pump up the volume

 

Brothers and sisters
Pump up the volume
We're gonna need you
Brothers and sisters

 

Pump up the volume)

 

 

[Lettucegrove]

Cheers @Graubart A little pressure will be applied, most definitely pumped  

My current brew is coops commercial yeast under pressure. I'm not doing this at ambient though, I chickened out. Same procedure as my other Pressure ferments but at 18'C. I'm interested to see how this little fella goes. 

[Marty_G]

13 hours ago, Lettucegrove said:

Has anyone used US05 when fermenting under pressure? I ask because I recently did a brew with it and it has turned out terrible. I left it to self pressurise, could this be where I went wrong, should I have added a bit of initial pressure to stop the ester production? The end result tastes like I fermented hot.

@MartyG1525230263 any ideas?

Yes it is most likely esters and fusels. To eliminate in future brews pressurize from the start. Most of that flavour will dissipate over time.  It will still be there but become more palatable.  Personally i really dislike esters.  

 

11 hours ago, Graubart said:

I vaguely remember that @MartyG1525230263 Marty had said he had hit the wall with fusel alc flavours at 30 deg C... and had experienced not such good flavours at that higher temp even tho it was under pressure.... Marty?   Think that was with W34/70....

Yes that is correct to stop that i have started pressurizing from the start.   

 

Yesterday, I made an AG Aussie Ale. It was suppose to be pitched with W34/70. However, as the forecast is for warmer temps in SEQ I pitched with Nottingham which is a wonderful neural flavoured yeast.  I have not pressure fermented with it before but had it in my yeast bank and heard great stuff about it as a pressure ferment yeast.  Apparently it is fast and works very well in the in the low 30c range. 

[ChristinaS1]

Lagers are not supposed to be ester-y, which one reason they are traditionally brewed at cool temps. Fermenting under pressure mimics this, so with lagers you want to apply pressure immediately. Ales on the other hand are supposed to have a few esters, hence the recommendation is to wait 24 hours or so before applying pressure, or to allow it to  build on its own.

If you want to suppress the esters in your ales, you can apply pressure immediately. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited January 6, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[Red devil 44]

Just kegged my first brew yesterday from the Fermzilla, put on tap straight away, nicely carbonated, loving this closed transfer.

Cleaned, sanitized & a new Pale Ale back in the Fermy, will get a fair workout over the next few weeks as I drained a few kegs over my Xmas holidays

Cheers RD44

[jamiek86]

1 hour ago, Red devil 44 said:

Just kegged my first brew yesterday from the Fermzilla, put on tap straight away, nicely carbonated, loving this closed transfer.

Cleaned, sanitized & a new Pale Ale back in the Fermy, will get a fair workout over the next few weeks as I drained a few kegs over my Xmas holidays

Cheers RD44

nice work you got it going ok in the end then you back at work now? I drained my first keg in 5 days over Xmas break the goal is to get 3 kegged now before touch

[Lettucegrove]

On 1/5/2021 at 9:37 PM, Lettucegrove said:

My current brew is coops commercial yeast under pressure. I'm not doing this at ambient though, I chickened out. Same procedure as my other Pressure ferments but at 18'C. I'm interested to see how this little fella goes. 

For those interested I have finished brewing this. The coopers yeast performed well when used under pressure. Pressure was not applied at the start, and was left to build naturally. 

More experiments to come 

[Pezzza]

Vienna Lager of sorts at 24 deg C ambient (making its own warmth) and now at 10PSI... started it out at 7PSI cos it is not that cold at the mo' and then about ten hours later - as it started to crank -  upped to 10PSI... seems to be going along nicely... hopefully will turn into a nice clean Lager ; )

[Lettucegrove]

58 minutes ago, Graubart said:

Vienna Lager of sorts at 24 deg C ambient (making its own warmth) and now at 10PSI... started it out at 7PSI cos it is not that cold at the mo' and then about ten hours later - as it started to crank -  upped to 10PSI... seems to be going along nicely... hopefully will turn into a nice clean Lager ; )

She'll be a ripper @Graubart!! My lagers were done around 25C and let to build naturally. I didn't encounter and off flavours so yours should be delish. I tell you what, I love being able to pump out lagers this quick  

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, Lettucegrove said:

I didn't encounter and off flavours so yours should be delish.

Cheers @Lettucegrove Lettuce mate - good stuff.  I am using W34/70 and it is amazingly well behaved even at warmer temps (e.g. 17-20) I reckon (ambient pressure) so am hoping it will be all good... and glad for the positive feedback.  @kmar92 KMar has noted mid 20s pressure brews go alright - and I cranked one out before Christmas to take to a mate's and it was pretty good so am hoping for. a good result ; )  Did a starter and was pretty stoked to see W34/70 skip along so fast 

[iBooz2]

@Graubart Hey there bloke, as promised I would find and let you know of a better "o" ring or seal for those Kegland SS caps.  The original black ones flog out after a few uses and are useless.

The best fit I have found are the replacement camlock seals, see pics.  Snug as bug in a rug.  You can get a pack of 5 from Kegland for a few dollars (product code KL07177) so readily available in most LHBS too I would imagine.

Don't forget to put a very light smear of food grade lube on seal face then its done up just hand tight, you will not need a spanner.

I think this idea and "find" will help @Red devil 44 , @Lettucegrove , @MartyG1525230263 , @kmar92 , @Shamus O'Sean , @PaddyBrew2 , @Titan , @MitchBastard and others.  Unsure if @ChristinaS1 uses the SS caps (Happy New Year Christina).

Anyway hope that helps everyone get on top of sealing issues (pun intended) when using theses SS caps .

Cheers - AL

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by iBooz2

[Pezzza]

2 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Anyway hope that helps everyone get on top of sealing issues (pun intended) when using theses SS caps .

Cheers - AL

Beaut - thanks mate!  Appreciate your help!

[ChristinaS1]

Hey @iBooz2 Happy New Year to you too!

Those are some nice looking SS caps. Are they only for Fermzillas? I use kegs. I replaced the posts that were on my secondhand kegs, but they are not as nice as these.

I can't order stuff from Kegland, as I don't live in Australia. Thanks for thinking of me though. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited January 16, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[MitchBastard]

Thank ya @iBooz2

[Journeyman]

Is this a reasonable solution to dry hopping under pressure? They suggest adding a t-piece so you can purge the hops bottle, which is a coke bottle or similar. 

https://www.kegland.com.au/pco1881-x-pco1881-female-ball-balve-dry-hop-device-for-fermzilla.html

 

[Frankie4Fingers]

I suppose it must work if they are selling it, or at least they have managed to get it to work at some point.  I sometimes think adding more and more mechanics can overcomplicate things but if it works for you then all good.  The only other thing is the height in the ferm fridge that it may take.

I have never had an issue when dry hopping by just slowly winding the pressure out using the spunding valve.  That usually only takes me 2 or 3 mins for the pressure to drop from ~10PSI to 0 and doesn't cause the yeast to go mad or any excess frothing.   Most of the yeast work is done by then as I typically dry hop around 3 days before kegging.

I then just drop my sanitised hop sock into the top of the Fermzilla with a sanitised shot glass and it then gracefully sinks and the oils do their thing.  Wind the spunding valve back up, purge a couple of times, add around 5 PSI and then within 24 hours the pressure is usually back up around 20PSI.

CC and then the beer is usually nicely carbonated.  Day or two on gas and it is spot on.

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, Frankie4Fingers said:

I suppose it must work if they are selling it, or at least they have managed to get it to work at some point.  I sometimes think adding more and more mechanics can overcomplicate things but if it works for you then all good.  The only other thing is the height in the ferm fridge that it may take.

I've kinda moved away from dry hops - back when all I had was craft beer in a pub I thought hoppy beers were great - in HB I find I like the hops aroma and flavour in milder doses so now I tend to hops teas.

I'm more interested in the idea of natural carbing and shortened wait for good beer. I'll believe it when I see it (or rather taste it) but lots of people think kegged beer is great after a week on serving or even within a couple of days after rock'n'roll high pressure carb.

I don't.

I find the keg after about 3 weeks has come into a new headspace (pun intended) where the flavours are smoothed into a blend and head is as it should be.

Not knocking anyone else, that's just my preference. If I still have to wait 3 weeks after pressure ferment for the quality, I have still had a win on the ferment times... although having said that, I have 2 beers I'm pretty sure are ready for CC after 4.5 days.  If the wait is only 2 weeks, that's another win and if the gurus are right and it's good in a week I'll buy a lotto ticket.

[iBooz2]

I know a few Fermzilla users have had the pressure holding / leaking problems in the past.  I managed to get mine sorted pretty quickly and its all been good since.

Up until the last AG batch which I was trying to let the pressure creep up so I could keg the beer.  Pressure just would not build so had to pump it up via the CO2 bottle.  It was then I noticed my blow off tube making the odd bubble in the bottle of sanitiser I have there to prevent any bugs getting up and into the blow off tube.  Found out that no matter how much I tightened the valve up the bubbles kept popping out at the same frequency, not fast just enough to bleed off most of the pressure.  Wound that Blowtie bugger fully closed and still the same.

Pulled it apart and found a small ring / lip has been pressed into the black rubber nipple that regulated the air pressure flow.  Thought I would be smart and use a very fine emery paper to sand off the lip of the ring but still did not stop the slow leak.  Tried some food grade lube around the perimeter and on the nipple but still the same. 

It has been working fine for nearly 12 months but I really needed it working for a new batch so just had to give up on the source of the leak and buy a new valve.

Just saying if you use one of these then make sure you test it and prove that it does actually close off when wound up reasonably firm as per normal use and at the pressures you require it to hold.  Put a blow off tube from the output of the valve into some water or sanitiser to see if it bubbles or not.

[jamiek86]

On 1/28/2021 at 11:04 AM, Journeyman said:

I like the hops aroma and flavour in milder doses so now I tend to hops teas.

lots of people think kegged beer is great after a week on serving or even within a couple of days after rock'n'roll high pressure carb.

I don't.

I find the keg after about 3 weeks has come into a new headspace (pun intended) where the flavours are smoothed into a blend and head is as it should be.

 

only have no 5 in keg right now but have to agree lagers/pilsners especially can't be rushed. I rock and rolled the first one wasn't as good as the second one that only saw 2 weeks. I now want pilsners minimum 4 to 6 weeks but even ales get better every day over 2 week mark.