Fermenting under pressure

[MitchBastard]

@PaddyBrew2 I’ve now read the thread and I’m still not 100% certain as to which way I’ll go. Maybe the 27L bad boy 

[PaddyBrew2]

I reckon so mate. The collection jar version seems over engineered to me. Why do you need to collect the trub  when there is a floating dip tube. Do you really need it to collect yeast when most people do an oversized yeast starter at the beginning and save the extra for future batches. Dry hopping is done quite easily through the top , with a small bit of patience and purging. The all rounder is a nice compact size and easy to move from fridge to counter top if need be. For someone new to pressure fermenting I would whole heartedly endorse the all rounder. 

[Pezzza]

4 hours ago, Lettucegrove said:

I've got a question for the brains trust. I have my lager (hopefully)fermenting in my repurposed 25L keg with a kegland spunding valve attached. I set the pressure relief to 15 PSI. My concern is that pressure is yet to build up substantially. I had the tiniest bit of pressure there last night but today the gauge is back to zero. I put the brew down Sunday with a fresh pack of W 34/70 plus some 6 month old slurry.  Could this potential lack of activity be due to the current cool SEQ temperature? Would it be worth applying co2 to simulate the desired 15PSI? I don't really want to let this brew go to sht through lack of pressure. Another note, my temp control can be available tomorrow so should I just crank it to 20 degrees and then see how the pressure goes? 

I'm not quite yet a 'pressure-dude' but am a believer in W34/70...

@Otto Von Blotto Otto Man and @Shamus O'Sean Shamus are Lager Brewers - and may comment too... but I think if you have cooler temps in SEQ.... then that is ideal for W34/70.

I dunno how quick the pressure should build up... but am not thinking that you need to bust-yer-boiler to apply it... as the yeast is not going to be doing anything bad to your beer if it's lovely and cool - providing everything nice and sterile and W34/70 is the only colonising organism in the brew.

The guns seem to ferment lagers around 10-12 degC... I reckon with W34/70 you can get away with a very nice beer even up to around 17 deg C without applying pressure. Fermentis suggest 12-15degC is ideal.

Applying pressure allows you to simulate the yeast-constraining conditions that colder temps provide for those not pressure brewing...  so if you are already cool... and yeast activity is slow... then surely that is just fine?  If you were overly warm, then you'd be in strife for not having the pressure constraining the yeast activity.

Also - have you got a good seal on all leakage points of the keg... valve seal - PRV - spunding valve etc...  there are so many places for leaks (my unfortunate experience in kegging).

Anyway - am sure some of the Pressure Cooker Crowd will have better feedback but I don't reckon you are gunna do bad things to your brew if nice and cool and with no pressure...

[Pezzza]

2 hours ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

The collection jar version seems over engineered to me

Ha ha Paddy mate - what version do I have - the one with the bllllardy collection jar ha ha - ah well... hopefully it will come in useful... when I get around to cranking the Big Fella !?!

Might be useful to take a Lager say off the Yeast Cake/Trub if wanna keep in the FV a bit longer to get better clarity maybe? 

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hey @Lettucegrove and @Bearded Burbler, I am nowhere near the lager brewer of @Otto Von Blotto's repute, barely an apprentice by comparison.  Also I have never done pressure fermenting (but my interest is growing).

Your lager sounds pretty slow.  Has fermentation got well underway?  I put down a Vienna Lager on Saturday with a W-34/70 starter.  18 hours later it had a great foamy head and SG is now around 1.016.  Started it at 12°C, 15°C yesterday morning and 18°C last night.

How is your SG?  If the temperature is similar to mine and your SG has dropped as expected, you should be fine.  I think the gist with pressure fermenting lagers is to be able to do them at warmer temperatures so they ferment quicker, but the pressure keeps the lager flavours happening, the pressure helps them condition faster too.  @MartyG1525230263 is one of the experienced ones in this space.

[Marty_G]

14 hours ago, Lettucegrove said:

I don't really want to let this brew go to sht through lack of pressure. Another note, my temp control can be available tomorrow so should I just crank it to 20 degrees and then see how the pressure goes? 

Crank it up to about 22c. As mentioned the idea is to do at higher temp. It ferments faster but still has lager flavour profiles.  I put down a brew on Monday with W34/70 at 22c and was at 15psi within 24 hours.  The benefit of pressure fermenting Lagers is the increased speed at higher tem for no change in flavours. It also conditions quicker. I am drinking a Pilsner now that has been in the keg for 2 weeks and it bloody beautiful. The only way you could tell that it has not been lagered for a couple of months is the clarity.  

[Lettucegrove]

@MartyG1525230263, @Shamus O'Sean & @Bearded Burbler - I've checked out my little set up this morning and have discovered where I was going wrong. The push in fitting attached to the disconnect was only finger tight. In saying this it looks like I have dodged any of the unwanted lager flavours I was dreading. I checked the SG, had a cheeky taste and took the reading - 1.014. There was 9PSI in the keg from when I pumped it up to take the sample so I left it in there, set my freezer to 21C and put the keg inside to warm up and finish off. Looks like i'll be right 

[Pezzza]

19 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Also - have you got a good seal on all leakage points of the keg... valve seal - PRV - spunding valve etc...  there are so many places for leaks (my unfortunate experience in kegging).

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh Lettuce - heed what the ancient Burbler has to say.... ha ha... have you got a good seal on all leakage points? 

No was the answer and the outcome was good.... well found!  Is only cause I have had too many leakages from my keggggggly kegs... even on brand new stuff... so am once bitten twice shy.

That is good news Cobber.... good luck with that one and please advise how it turns out ; )

[MitchBastard]

@PaddyBrew2 cheers for that! I probably should have said 27L conical. Although I’m not overly concerned about harvesting yeast, I like the idea of dry hopping with that part of the vessel. Also, @Bearded Burbler makes a good point about racking yeast off. Might be an idea....

 

 

might be a silly question but how does one take a grav reading when using either of those vessels?

[Lettucegrove]

2 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh Lettuce - heed what the ancient Burbler has to say.... ha ha... have you got a good seal on all leakage points? 

No was the answer and the outcome was good.... well found!  Is only cause I have had too many leakages from my keggggggly kegs... even on brand new stuff... so am once bitten twice shy.

That is good news Cobber.... good luck with that one and please advise how it turns out ; )

Yes very good advice Mr Burbler. I guess I was too excited to get my new all in one keg fermenting, pressure relieving, shinning stainless vessel full of wort and overlooked the basics 

[PaddyBrew2]

20 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Ha ha Paddy mate - what version do I have - the one with the bllllardy collection jar ha ha - ah well... hopefully it will come in useful... when I get around to cranking the Big Fella !?!

Might be useful to take a Lager say off the Yeast Cake/Trub if wanna keep in the FV a bit longer to get better clarity maybe? 

Haha she'll be right mate. 

[PaddyBrew2]

1 hour ago, MitchBastard said:

@PaddyBrew2 cheers for that! I probably should have said 27L conical. Although I’m not overly concerned about harvesting yeast, I like the idea of dry hopping with that part of the vessel. Also, @Bearded Burbler makes a good point about racking yeast off. Might be an idea....

 

 

might be a silly question but how does one take a grav reading when using either of those vessels?

I'm investing in a tilt hydrometer. But my last brew I used a picnic tap on a beer line to fill the hydrometer jar. Have to degas as it's carbonated

[Marty_G]

12 hours ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

I'm investing in a tilt hydrometer. But my last brew I used a picnic tap on a beer line to fill the hydrometer jar. Have to degas as it's carbonated

Up I do the same. I take my 1st sample after 2 days. I then stick that sample in the in a cupboard and monitor that. It is pretty accurate at telling me when ferment is over. So I only take 2 samples that one and a last one when i see the pressure and temp droping in the FV.  Which is usually day 3 using Voss yeast and day 4 using lager yeast.  

Edited June 25, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[Lettucegrove]

So whats the best way to transfer beer from the FV to the keg oxygen free, an enclosed transfer I believe?

[Marty_G]

10 hours ago, Lettucegrove said:

So whats the best way to transfer beer from the FV to the keg oxygen free, an enclosed transfer I believe?

Yes need to tansfer from a pressure FV to a keg to do it.   this clip will help.... https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=how+to+do+a+closed+transfer+to+keg&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_DvL4XvOjNazjz7sPv-2ciAk29

[Marty_G]

 This is probably a better vid as it is a closed pressure transfer. 

 

[Lettucegrove]

Thanks 

[Marty_G]

I sure am hooked on pressure fermentation. Bought myself another squat 25 litre cornie to run as a kegmenter.  It is a bit taller than my other one but apart from that it is the same.  These have a larger opening and they just are great to pressure ferment in.   Picked it on GumTree for $65. So with a floating did tube and the spunding valve cost less that $120 for a new pressure fermenter. Right now I have a double batch brewing of AG Pilsner, recipe on the brew day thread, with one using W34/70 and the other Urquell 2001 both as 15psi and 22c.  Really looking forward to the results. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[ChristinaS1]

13 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

I sure am hooked on pressure fermentation. Bought myself another squat 25 litre cornie to run as a kegmenter.  It is a bit taller than my other one but apart from that it is the same.  These have a larger opening and they just are great to pressure ferment in.   Picked it on GumTree for $65. So with a floating did tube and the spunding valve cost less that $120 for a new pressure fermenter.

What a gorgeous keg Marty.

Pressure fermentation is a beautiful thing! 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[Titan]

Im just about to transfer my Black Rye IPA to a serving keg. This is a pressure ferment in the snub nose saurus, no spunding valve used. 

[Marty_G]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

Im just about to transfer my Black Rye IPA to a serving keg. This is a pressure ferment in the snub nose saurus, no spunding valve used. 

So just relied on the PRV. Interesting stuff.  Tell us how it tastes. Think the PRV are set for 38PSI which is very high pressure.   My guess is there will be no discernible yeast flavours so the hops will just pop and the aroma will be brilliant as it has all been kept in the keg and the olfactory chemicals forced back into the brew.   So how are you going to tansfer with now spunding valve.  Will need to consider foaming because the pressure in the fermenter will be high. Do you intend to pressurise the keg? 

[Marty_G]

Quick update on the Pilsners: I pitched from slurry at midday Friday. When I went to bed around midnight the 34/70 was at 5psi and the 2001 has no pressure but on Saturday  morning they were both at 15psi. The Urquell was flying along as the temp had gone from 22-23 naturally which means ferment is powering on. Late yesterday the temp on the Urquell naturally rose to 26.2c while the W34/70 had maintained 23c for the whole day. 

This morning Sunday:  The temp in the Urquell 2001 has dropped 3c over night to 23c and the pressure has also dropped to 13 psi from 15psi. So that is telling me the ferment is all but over. Have taken a sample and the SG is close to expected which is 1012 @75% attenuation. Quick taste of the tester and boy is this good. The Saaz is popping. Lovely spiciness to the brew and no hint of phenols or diacetyl. Now be mindful this was grain on Friday.  This is clearly a wonderful method to ferment lagers. So quick crisp and clean and the hop's aroma and taste are not lost into the ether, so to speak. They are retained in the brew. This will now be left till Tuesday when I will start the cold crash and kegged after it has been at 1c for 3 or 4 days. So I can get the FVs back into action. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[Titan]

On 7/26/2020 at 8:43 AM, MartyG1525230263 said:

So just relied on the PRV. Interesting stuff.  Tell us how it tastes. Think the PRV are set for 38PSI which is very high pressure.   My guess is there will be no discernible yeast flavours so the hops will just pop and the aroma will be brilliant as it has all been kept in the keg and the olfactory chemicals forced back into the brew.   So how are you going to tansfer with now spunding valve.  Will need to consider foaming because the pressure in the fermenter will be high. Do you intend to pressurise the keg? 

All good plans can have issues. Transfer failed as some sort of blockage in the beer out of the saurus. Fixed now but very frustrating on transfer day. Ended up syphoning the beer out of the fv to an open keg picking up a lot of yeast in the process. No issues with foaming during the transfer. All the dry hop charge i did is very prominent. Trying to work out where the spicy notes in the beer are coming from.

[Marty_G]

13 hours ago, Titan said:

Trying to work out where the spicy notes in the beer are coming from.

I get a lot of very distinct spicy notes in my pressure fermented lagers and I assumed it was from the Saaz just popping but now you have me second guessing maybe it is also yeast characteristic from the pressure ferment. Anyway I love the ex spice in the Pils. Must admit I haven't noticed it in my ales but that may be because I have been using a lot of revived recipes from the early 20th century lately and they are heavy on the inverted syrups which brings an extra level of flavour. 

[ChristinaS1]

Put this on today. It is kind of a hybrid, using ale yeast, Maris Otter, and brown sugar, but also lager yeast, and lager hops. They say Perle is dual purpose, but I have never seen it used as a late addition.  Got the idea from an episode of Basic Brewing where they used it at FO.  They found resembled soft fruits like apricot, plum, cantaloupe, (not overripe, not tropical, not citrusy). Should be interesting.

 

Perle Lager (Spunded lager #5)

 

1.7kg Mexican Cervesa

1.1kg Maris Otter 34.9%

200gm Carapils 6.3%

150 gm brown sugar 4.8%

10gm Mt Hood x 20 minute boil 

60gm Perle @ FO x 20 minutes stand. 

10mL Clarity Ferm

17L RO water

14gm ale / lager yeast blend, dry pitched

 

OG 1.047; FG 1.010; ABV 4.8% keg; IBU 38; EBC 7; BU:GU 0.82.

 

Been having problems with my spunding ever since I accidentally attached it to the out post a few brews back, and wort backed up into it. Think it might be gummed up with sticky wort. I have been tinkering with it, and thought I had fixed it, but today I could hear gas escaping. Decided to go to my LHBS and buy another pressure gauge, on the off chance that was the problem, and not the PRV. Seems like it has fixed the leak. Fingers crossed. Time will tell.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.