ben 10 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 4 hours ago, rossm said: Yeah Otto I know, I'll continue with the off topic. Yes extract etc brews can be as good but the versatility with grain beers is well beyond the extract ones. Also my last 23 litres of saison cost $9.50 - do that with extract, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 I think the only way you could do a brew day in 4 hours is to cut corners, shorter mash (which you could probably get away with), shorter boil (bad idea) etc. Cutting corners almost never produces as good a result as doing things properly. I agree with what Ben says as well. My AG brews aren't quite that cheap but they're usually around $20 or less for 20 odd litres which is still about half the cost of most extract recipes. There's nothing wrong with threads meandering off topic, it happens all the time, I just didn't figure a thread about starting out and trying to learn and refine processes for AG brewing was quite the place to waffle on about kit beers being just as good. No harm done mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Lao Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 Will have to watch the youtube vid again might have been longer than 4 hours. Cheers James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Some guys like to push convention and try to make everything go quicker while still maintaining the same quality in the end product. But the only way to do that is to cut corners, and you rarely get the same quality of product by cutting corners in its production. The reactions that occur in the mash are pretty quick, the conversion should really be finished after 15-20 minutes with today's malts, so theoretically you could do a 20 or 30 minute mash and not produce a wort any different from a 60+ minute mash. I suspect the hour long mashing is more just to ensure conversion is complete since a lot of us don't bother with iodine starch testing. A longer mash can also produce a more fermentable wort than a shorter mash at the same temp. Also, beta amylase works slower than alpha so if you're mashing in the low 60s it is beneficial to give it more time. The reactions that occur over an hour long boil however, can't be sped up. That's how long they take and that's it, there's no way around it. I won't go into details but there are a few reasons for boiling wort for at least an hour, and it's not just for hop bitterness or sterilisation. If you shorten the boil then you potentially don't get the full benefit of boiling the wort in the first place. Not worth it to me just to shave half an hour off the length of the brew day. I normally start my brew days about 9am on the weekends, sometimes earlier, and I'm usually draining into the cube by about 2:30-3pm. It depends on the batch I'm brewing, the mash schedule, length of boil, and if there are any first wort hops in the recipe. I usually mash for a total of 90 minutes or so; 65-70 minutes at the mash temp, and the remainder at 72C to aid in head retention (which seems to work anecdotally at least). After that I lift out the bag and let it drain for 25 minutes, then squeeze it out. If there are first wort hops then they go in at this point and steep in the wort for 20 minutes before I begin bringing it to the boil, otherwise I begin that straight away. And then I boil for anywhere from 75 to 120 minutes, depending on the volume. My boil off rate seems to have decreased lately for some reason so I'm having to boil longer to achieve the target volume and OG. I find this easier than re-calculating strike water because sometimes the boil off is higher. It's weird but I work with it. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Lao Posted June 6, 2018 Author Share Posted June 6, 2018 Just got back from work the other day and the the 2 AG Brew has been in the ferment fridge for just under 4 weeks ( I know this is too long but I have done this multiple times with no ill effects). Anyway measure the FG and my hydrometer was saying 1.002??? Checked the hydro in tap water and it was 0.992. So I am thinking the brews finished at around 1.010? Also thinking then that my starting gravity would have been a fair few points higher as well. Think I need to get a new hydrometer,. One positive though if that’s the case is that my efficiency just improved from 65% to about 75% Kegged last night will be getting the first taste tonight, can’t wait! Cheers James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Your corrected SG is right yes. If the hydrometer reads low you add the difference to each reading. Your OG would also have been 8 points higher. Mine also reads low although not that badly, and it was one of the reasons behind a drop in efficiency I had a while back. I really should check it in water again actually just to see if it's shifted further out of whack. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 On 5/16/2018 at 9:20 PM, Ben 10 said: I'll continue with the off topic. Yes extract etc brews can be as good but the versatility with grain beers is well beyond the extract ones. Also my last 23 litres of saison cost $9.50 - do that with extract, I'll keep this thread off topic for this one; I have now produced 50 batches of kits'n'bits and extract'n'bits, and have been dreaming about purchasing a RoboBrew and trying AG given the significance of a 'fresher' brew. Regarding the cost of brew as stated by Ben 10, I would need to make another 40 or so batches to get 'payback' for the $500 expenditure on a RoboBrew. Not sure I could take it. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gullys Brewing Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 46 minutes ago, Worthog said: I'll keep this thread off topic for this one; I have now produced 50 batches of kits'n'bits and extract'n'bits, and have been dreaming about purchasing a RoboBrew and trying AG given the significance of a 'fresher' brew. Regarding the cost of brew as stated by Ben 10, I would need to make another 40 or so batches to get 'payback' for the $500 expenditure on a RoboBrew. Not sure I could take it. Cheers, Yeah I'm am trying to workout how I can convince my wife that buying a robobrew will 'save' us money... All ready thinks I am spending to much on extract all ready. 'Honey I'll smash out 40 brews and it'll pay it self off! That would only be about 2 years and then it'll be making us money!' what you think do I have a case?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I spent about $700 on an urn and mill and other bits and pieces when I started all grain nearly 6 years ago. Hardly bought anything for it since other than a stainless mash paddle and a couple of replacement grain bags. Otherwise it's just been ingredients. I don't brew as cheaply as Ben, but most batches only come to about $20, so I'm saving approx. $15-20 a batch, brewing 16-18 batches a year, which is around $250-$350 in savings on ingredients per year. 2-3 years it pays for itself and if it's a decent unit like those Crown urns you'll get many more years of service out of it before needing to replace it. The grain mill and stainless mash paddle will just about last forever so no worries about replacing those. If I need another urn I can use the same ball valve on it. In the long run, it certainly works out cheaper. Get involved in grain bulk buys when you can. Store a variety of grains and hops so that you have whatever you need on hand at all times and don't have to rush off to buy something every brew. Store and re-use yeast to save on costs; I only run 3 strains at a time but it's enough for my needs. The cost of DME for starters is less than buying yeast every brew especially when you use liquid yeast. $18 spread across 8 or so starters that I get from 2kg DME is better than over $100 for a smack pack every batch. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 If you're on here it is because you are passionate about brewing, want to improve your skills and your beers, etc. my thoughts are if you love brewing, then it's a hobby and it shouldn't be about saving money or trying to justify the financial outlay to return/savings. It's all about the beer, the process, the enjoyment of brewing. $500 towards something you love doing and love the output is an investment. Certainly cheaper hobby than fishing/dirt biking/motorsport/cycling! And you get beer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 That's true, but there's also nothing wrong with trying to find ways to save money if it doesn't impact on the quality of what you're producing, especially given the rising costs of everything these days. If I can get a bag of grain $20 cheaper in a bulk buy than at a retail store then I'm damn well going for it; they're usually run through the same mobs anyway, but the cost gets reduced if a lot of people are buying bags at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 The $9.5 was on the extreme low for me. Hoppier high gravity beers cost a fair bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Baron Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I purchased my Grainfather not to save money but to brew my own quality beer at home. I also treated myself to a Traeger pellet smoker. In my old age it’s about knowing what is in my food, beer etc. The wife has a Thermomix too and we try and make a heap of stuff from scratch so we know exactly what we are eating and drinking. A vegetable garden will be getting made soon and maybe I will consider my own hops in the future. Luckily I have a great wife so not much convincing was needed to start my journey ha ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I moved to all grain for the same reason, mainly to get more involved in the process and create beers from scratch. It's just an advantage that the ingredients are a lot cheaper as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I bought a Grainfather a few years ago. I’m still trying to hide it from my wife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I don’t really bother about costs per batch to be honest. I got my allgrain gear through birthdays, Father’s Day and Christmas. Job done. Which was all up around $800. I did however need to convince the wife that it was about making my own beer and not just being able to afford more and there for drink more. I just got sick and tired of beer that was tasteless and knowing full well I can make a beer better than some of the breweries around here. And my obsession with trying to make everything myself. Tomorrow I head to the big smoke of Perth. I’ll be grabbing a couple of sacks of grain. Each for $50. My LHBS charges $80. Apart from base I by everything else from there as I do like to support local business but an extra $30 for one sack is dipicable. They do good prices on hops and their liquid yeasts that I order in are around $15 a pack. Each of my batches at the moment are around the $40 for 25l. Once I start reusing yeast better and buying hops in bulk I’ll drop that price buy probably $10+ a batch. captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Beer Baron said: A vegetable garden will be getting made soon and maybe I will consider my own hops in the future. Hey B.B, For growing hops at home it might be advantageous to try a wicking bed. Provides all the water they require with using less water. Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Baron Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I don’t care about cost per batch either. It’s all about satisfaction for me. It’s a pity I have no friends to share my beer with. We could all talk about how good it is compared to commercial crap My father in law got a piglet so it could grow up and we could eat it but it died very young and the new replacement one did too. It would have been good to have fresh pork with no steroids and all the other crap that goes into them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 B.B. Could pay to get a yearling?? From a reputable farmer. Much more manageable. Most piglet deaths come from the mother squashing them. However, getting a yearling might help with mortality. Yes it’ll cost a bit more but it’ll bit worth it in the end Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Lao Posted June 9, 2018 Author Share Posted June 9, 2018 Tasted my first 2 AG brews and although it's still very early days, I think the Hobgoblin is the best beer I have made. It must be the Maris Otter malt, the beer is so fresh and the biscuit maltiness is shining through - absolutely delicious! The IPA on the other hand is OK, but I think the first 20 minutes of the mash being 70degC has made the beer too sweet ( although it it finished at 1.011)? I also started chilling the beer too fast so I think I didn't get bang for buck with my late hops, maybe why it seems sweet as well? Also first time using El Dorado hops , and I think I am missing my big Citra hit. Reminds of a brew I did with Vic Secret as it reminding me of peach and apricot opposed to mango - citrus that I am used to. Put down another brew yesterday and have learnt from my mistakes the first time, along with suggestions from this thread, but still made a few yesterday though! This one is a Hop hog inspired IPA with Citra and Chinook, got 82% efficiency this time according to Brewsmith from 5.5 kg of grain - happy days! Cheers James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 The good news is that even if you don't get a cheap price on grain it ends up so much cheaper than buying an equivalent commercial craft beer, just because you don't pay excise. The batch I have fermenting now cost me maybe $13 for grain and $7 for hops. Can't argue with $20 for a case of a (hopefully) nice lager with a bit of new-world hop presence. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 4 hours would be pretty hard to hit. Double batch yesterday. 2 x 60min mash 2 x 90min boil, plus time spent waiting for strike water to get up to temperature. Only thing that i could have done to speed things up was to heat my second batch of strike water in my sparge water boiler. Would have saved 40mins or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry1525229471 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I have only brewed 2 batches ones in the bottle conditioning and the other is still in the fridge fermenting been their for 6 days at 19 degrees and reading 1020 I have a feeling its not going to go any lower. My 1st brew a smash also would,nt drop lower than 1020 so I bottled it and will stand back and pray. I also started all grain for the satisfaction of making a better beer than I can buy I don't keep track of how much it costs but when I get it working right I will buy grain in bulk I would like to have a couple of pigs I have plenty of room but it would be a complete waste of time as soon as my grand daughters seen them they become pets and I would would be given orders that they where to live a long and happy life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Henry1525229471 said: I would like to have a couple of pigs I have plenty of room but it would be a complete waste of time as soon as my grand daughters seen them they become pets and I would would be given orders that they where to live a long and happy life. I have a couple of pigs in my house and they cost a fortune; food, clothing, school etc. My wife always refers to them as our children but that’s just semantics, right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 48 minutes ago, Henry1525229471 said: I have only brewed 2 batches ones in the bottle conditioning and the other is still in the fridge fermenting been their for 6 days at 19 degrees and reading 1020 I have a feeling its not going to go any lower. My 1st brew a smash also would,nt drop lower than 1020 so I bottled it and will stand back and pray. I also started all grain for the satisfaction of making a better beer than I can buy I don't keep track of how much it costs but when I get it working right I will buy grain in bulk Three possibilities here, well four if you count yeast problems. One is the mash temperature being high which will lead to a higher FG. Another is your hydrometer isn't measuring properly, test in 20C water, if it's either side of 1.000 you'll have to compensate for that in each reading. Another is you are checking the FG with a refractometer and not correcting for alcohol being present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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