First AG on Robobrew

[James Lao]

Hi all,

First AG brews today x 2 on the Robbo.

Took about 12 hours from go to woh, cleaning everything etc,  but I had a few issues that I think I will improve on next time.

The first Brew was an IPA  mainly with JW pale ale malt about 4.5kg and 1.5kg of Munich, and it took ages to sparge - about one hour and a bit.

The second  Brew was an ESB,  6 kg of Maris Otter and only took about 20-35 minutes to sparge.

The MO definitely seemed easier for the wortto drain through.

Both recipe packs were milled at Brewmart.

Anyway, BeerSmith said I should be getting about 1.061 OG, but I got 1.054 on the IPA and 1.056 on the ESB.

I got about 22 litres in both FVs from a 28 litre boil.

I think the  Robbo struggles with 6kg of grain that’s why my efficiency is down?

But with the IPA there is loads of massive floaters that I have never seen in extract/ partial brewing?

The ESB doesn’t appear to have these floaters. 

Used half a Whirlfoc Gary Ablett on both Brews 10 minutes  before the end of boil. 

Not sure if it’s protein, trub or yeast just being weird?

Used Notty on both brews re-hydrated and made into a starter.

Cheers

 

James

[Smitdog88]

Hey mate, I've had this happen to me on a BIAB on the stove top, I didn't whirlpool properly and then also tipped the whole batch into the fermenter without being careful and leaving the trub behind.

So I would say that it looks like all the trub junk that's now clumped together from the whirlfoc tablet.

This will all bounce around for the whole fermentation and or float on top. 

I suggest cold crashing before you bottle so that the junk can all drop out and you don't bottle those clouds.

You might need to whack the fermenter just a little to agitate it while cold crashing to get the lumps to drop to the bottom, took me a few goes but they fall quickly and i didn't have a big issue come drinking time. Just a hassle, 

I just did a stove top batch again but this time I didn't use any whirlfoc tablets and just whirl pooled and siphoned from the top down and left the last litre or 2 behind because I didn't want any cloud puffs in my fermenter.

Show us an update in a week, keen to see how it ferments.

Cheers.

 

[James Lao]

Cheers mate, it is fermenting like crazy now!

So with the Robo I used the immersion chiller, and was agitating the IC in the wort.

It got down to 27degC in about 20mins.

I removed the IC and started the pump to transfer to the wort.

So if I let it settle for another 5-10mins would that be enough to minimize trub transfer to FV?

Cant think of another way as the pump suction is at the bottom of the boiler.

There is a tap at the bottom as well, how do people transfer when doing AG to minimize trub in the FV?

Auto Syphon thingy?

Cheers

James

[porschemad911]

I use Brewbrite, let the wort settle for 15 mins, then siphon off the top into my cube (stainless jiggle siphon in silicon tubing). I leave 3 litres behind in the kettle to avoid picking up much trouble. I use a 300 micron stainless hop filter to keep up bits out. 

I have thought about installing a valve but decided against it since my siphon works so well. 

Cheers, 

John

[PaddyBrew2]

how good is brewmart mate, went to the one in bayswater a couple weeks ago and was seriously impressed by what they have and knowledge and friendliness of staff. bit of a trek from scarbs but worth it 

[James Lao]

 

Yes Brewmart in Bayswater is awesome, bit of a trek for me as well from north of Joondalup!

What do other All Grainers do to prevent the trub getting in the FV?

Suppose the no chill cube method would help keeping the trub out a bit ?

Think I will just leave it to settle another 10 minutes after taking the immersion filler out.

Is having trub in the FV really a bad thing?

Looks like I need to do more reading.

Cheers

James

 

 

[The Captain!!]

Pull out your chiller, whirlpool and settle for 10-15. Decant into your fermenter. 

Easy peesy.

I personally don’t really like grub in the fermenter but I’m not sure it makes a big deal if there’s some in there. But that is why we Whirlpool and drag the wort from the edge of you vessel to separate that out.

Captain

[James Lao]

Cool.

So whirlpooling makes all the crap settle in he middle and the pump suction is on the outer of the boiler.

Will defo be giving this one a try next time round.

Will probably get a pulley system set up for lifting  and moving the maltpipe etc.

Not that heavy at 10-12 kilos, just a bit awkward getting the spent grains out.

Dont think I will be doing 2 batches in one day again either, probably just stagger the brew days on consecutive Fridays or something.

All in all though I am glad I made the plunge into AG, hopefully the beer is good, sure it will be though.

Think I wil get quicker at doing brews with each go as well

Cheers

James

[The Captain!!]

9 hours ago, James Lao said:

Cool.

So whirlpooling makes all the crap settle in he middle and the pump suction is on the outer of the boiler.

Will defo be giving this one a try next time round.

Will probably get a pulley system set up for lifting  and moving the maltpipe etc. 

Yeah that’s exactly what the whirlpool does. I and other people use whirl flock to aid in this too. Sticks all that protein together.

The robobrews have those ratchet pulley systems hey? Which would make things even easier. 

I literally have a pulley and a 4mm small engine cord that I temporarily hang over my garage door rung channel. Pull out the bag place in a bucket within a bucket and drain. 

Squeeze, replace strained wort to kettle then Bobs your aunties live in lover. Boil time!

Cheers James

Captain.

[DavidB44]

James,

I've been getting a lot of trub with the Robobrew and the IC too but I've been doing mainly no-chill. I think the chiller coil interferes with the whirlpool and next time I do this I'll try the whirlpool first, let it sit then put the chiller in. With no-chill I still get trub in the cube but I use one of those taps with a sediment reducer and chock the cube so the sediment goes to the opposite corner.

My first few brews had terrible mash efficiency and I'd a have a pack of DME on stand-by. I think one of my problems was with the strike water temperature. The volume markings on Robo v1 and v2 are a bit off and I think I over compensated and ended up with a too hot mash. More recently I've been starting slightly lower then using the pump and elements to raise to mash temperature. Last few brews have been 85-90% mash efficiency and I've had water on stand-by.

Also, I seem to get more extract from 6kg than I do from 7+. 

Are you in the robobrew users facebook group? There's a lot of experience there.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Your big grain bills are responsible for the lower efficiency. The bigger the grain bill is, the lower the efficiency - generally. IPAs are fair enough but 6kg MO for an ESB in 20 odd litres is a bit much. 4kg and a bit of medium or dark crystal would do the trick there.

As for the trub, I'm not sure throwing Gary Ablett in there will do much for it but in all seriousness you don't want it in the fermenter. One of the reasons for doing an hour long or more boil and using kettle finings like Whirlfloc near the end is to coagulate and drop that stuff out to keep it out of the fermenter. The biggest issue with it is the potential for premature staling of the beer. I know Brulosophy did an "experiment" with dumping it all in and found no real difference in the beers in the glass other than the trubby one being clearer, but they always drink them long before any problems would show up anyway, so it's a pretty useless experiment really, and certainly does nothing to disprove the science behind why every brewery on earth does as much as they can to keep the shit out of their fermenters.

Like John, I use Brewbrite nearing the end of the boil. I usually throw it in with about 7 minutes left, after mixing it with some water into a slurry (it doesn't do much thrown in dry in my experience). Before the boil is done I connect the transfer hose to the ball valve on the urn and lower it into the cube ready to go. At flameout I throw in some hops if there are any, and rest the urn lid on top of the hop spider, and simply let the thing sit there for 20 minutes or so. After 20 minutes I slowly drain the wort into the cube, tilting if necessary but stopping the transfer if the shit starts making its way into the outlet. Usually I have enough wort that none of that crap gets into the cube at all, but occasionally the volumes are a bit off. I don't mind if a small amount gets in there but I leave as much as possible behind in the urn. The cubes do end up with a trub layer on the bottom after they sit for a while, but I think this is cold break which is much less of a concern in the FV. I allow a little of this in, but not the whole lot otherwise the trub layer is too high and interferes with the FV tap.

Cheers

Kelsey

[The Captain!!]

+1 to Ottos comments above.

Thats basically everything I do too.

Captain

[Blue-Bagger]

Just finished my fifth brew with my Robobrew & so far so good.The beers i have been producing have been pretty good & I've been getting good feedback from family & friends.

Here are a few  things that I have learnt/found so far:

1) For a 5 kg  Grain Bill I have been mashing with  17 litres of water.This seems to give the mash a nice consistency  & allows for good flow of water through the mash. I also don't use the top screen in the tun ,as I find it tends to compact the mash.I also heat the strike water to 6 degrees above expected mash temp before adding the grain. I like to mash at 68 Degrees & I find its then easier to get to the correct mash temp.I have the pump tap on about a quarter of the way on

2) I start sparging as soon as I have lifted the tun out of the urn & try not to let the water level drop below the grain bed until I have used all my sparge water(15 ltrs @ 72 Deg,)This process usually takes me only 10-15 mins. I usually end up with between 28 -29 litres pre-boil(23 litres post boil)

3) I use half a whirlfloc tablet @10 mins & don't' whirlpool  until the temp is at 80 Deg.I find that if you whirlpool at too high a temp the thermals in the brew tend to upset the material in the bottom of the urn.

4) I use the no chill method & add my 0 minutes hops to the cube. Using an immersion chiller is   a pain too me & is one less thing I have to clean & sanitize.

 

So far my efficiency &  OG's have been spot on.Hope this helps. Cheers

 

Bluebagger

 

 

 

[James Lao]

Cheers for the replies everyone.

I set my efficiency to 76% as per Gash Slugg/Kegland Robobrew Beersmith profile.

With my measured OG I got  about 70% efficiency.

Think my next brews will be at 5kgs instead of 6kg and might start a bit lower with the temps.

A mistake I made on the the first one was I did not change the set temp  to 66deC  from 71degC after doughing in.

So the temp stayed at about 70degC for the first 20 minutes of the mash, until I realised I had not changed the temp setting.

(I extended this mash to 90mins to try and make up for the 20mins at higher temp)

This brew also struggled with the sparge, it took ages for the water to filter through.

So next time I will use less grain,  and keep the temp a bit lower initially.

The Maris Otter brew sparge only took about 20 mins compared the JW traditional ale malt 1 hour - this also had some Dextrine malt I think?.

Is the type of malt to blame for the long sparge time or more likely how it was milled or because I mashed high for the first 20 minutes?

I am not on Facebook, the Coopers Forum and AHB and now Cellar Dweller are pretty much the extent of my social media.

Been thinking about joining FB  but am paranoid of the invasion of privacy,  face stalking  etc.

Cheers

James

[Blue-Bagger]

James,

How much water are you using when mashing-a 1 hour sparge seems way too long. I'm not an expert but its sounds like either the mash became compacted ,or not enough water

in the mash.My mash has the consistency of "runny weetbix" it seems to work well for me.Like I said in my previous post if your mash has the correct consistency sparging doesn't take that long . It also took me a couple of brews to dial into how both heat elements work & the heat difference between the top & bottom of the urn.

[James Lao]

I had 18 litres of water for a 6kg grain bill.

Sparged with about 15 litres.

It took about 45-55 minutes and I think something definitely  went wrong because the second brew was with the same amount of water but took 20 minutes.

Might try next time with the lid off, to avoid compacting the grain.

Do you stir during the mash or just leave it sit?

Once I finished doughing in I just left it alone, only turning the pump on every 5 minutes with the valve just open a smidge, to get the water circulating from top to bottom.

I turned the pump off once the level got to the overflow tube in the middle of the malt pipe.

Still enjoyed the day, lots to learn and take away for the next one.

Cheers

James

[Otto Von Blotto]

At 70 degrees the mash was probably finished after 20 minutes . I doubt this would affect the sparge, the SG of the wort would be pretty much the same as if it was mashed lower and the grains won't be any different - what it will do though is increase the FG. Probably not much use extending the time, as at 70C the beta amylase would have pretty much been denatured so you won't get more fermentability by extending the mash time. Might drop a point off the FG but that'd be about it.

At the end of the day though, it will take you a few batches to get the hang of things better. Nobody starts anything and knows everything about it beforehand.

[Blue-Bagger]

James,

I haven't  done a 6 kg Grain Bill, but with my experience of 5 kg Grain Bills ,18 litres seems a bit light on.I'm using approx 3.4 litres per kilo of grain.I leave the pump running the whole time but only fast enough so it doesn't go down the over flow tube.I only stirred my first  ever mash & in hindsight I think that was because the mash was too thick.Once you get  the consistency right it will make  the brewing process  much easier.From what i have read the Robobrew doesn't cope too well with Grain bills over 5 kg,you can still do them but your Brew house efficiency goes out the window.Finally as Otto said its all experience & trial & error.The best thing is is that the brews you are now making will taste way better than kit beers

i

 

[rossm]

Well I'm buggered if I know, people get on here and state that there will be no doubt that the all grain brews will be far superior to kit brews. I don't know if I am doing it all right or the all grain blokes I know are doing it all wrong, but many of the brews I have made and continue to make, are at least equal to any of the brews I have tried from the all grainers. I do nothing very special, just kit, malt and sometimes late hops. I have tried harvested yeast  from Coopers commercial Pale Ale which makes a difference to the taste but not the quality of the beer. I have temperature control for both brewing and conditioning which I think is the biggest influence in the quality of the final brew but other than that I am pretty basic.

Don't get me wrong, the all grain brews are good and no doubt lend themselves to a larger scope of flavours and styles, but quality? not in my opinion. We have a craft brew outlet here which makes their beer supposedly from locally grown malted barley, while it is Ok I am not over the moon about it and from conversations I have with people it is more a trendy thing than a genuine love of the beer. i.e. it is trendy to be seen there.

I am not saying one is better than the other but I do wonder sometimes at the members who categorically state that all grain is far superior to kit beers....each to his own I say. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's nice Ross but this isn't a debate about which method of brewing produces superior beers. It's a bloke just starting out on the journey of all grain and trying to learn the ropes of his system. With all due respect, nobody gives a rats arse (on this thread anyway) if your kit beers are just as nice as some AGers you've tried, it's completely off point. It sounds like you're trying to say that moving to AG is a waste of time. Obviously there are all grainers who either don't brew using very good processes or don't construct particularly good recipes, maybe brew with old ingredients as well, and those beers will always fall short of ones brewed by guys who use good processes, recipes and fresh ingredients. Sometimes, a beer just isn't to your taste regardless of what method was used to brew it.

Kits just can't provide the freshness of flavor that all grain can, and from that aspect all grain is superior. It's not just about that though, it's about enjoying the brewing process. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gains more satisfaction and sense of achievement from mashing, boiling etc. than mixing up some pre-hopped goop and powder with some water in a bucket, not that there's anything wrong with doing that either. No method of brewing is the "wrong" method, it's about what you enjoy. Personally my AG beers have pretty well all been better beers than the kits I did at the beginning, but that's probably due to using proper temp control and yeast pitching rates as well.

I don't like every commercial beer I've tried either. I actually had one a couple of weeks ago at a bar that tasted heavily oxidised. The same flavor I got in a few old bottles of my own kit brews from 6 years ago that I found recently. I was rather disappointed because it was a style I enjoy, but that flavor ruined it. I actually didn't even finish it in the end it was that bad.

[James Lao]

Adding more water to the 'to do list' next time, 3.4 times water to grain.

I have been extremely happy with my extract brews over the last few years, but like Otto said, I just really enjoy the whole thing of brewing.

Temp control, adequate healthy yeast etc improving them no end.

I like the idea of trying different grains - Maris Otter, Munich etc to try and get more differences in flavour and getting closer to beers I am trying to replicate etc.

The AG process is a fair bit longer but if you factor this in , there's no harm done.

Missus was happy I was out of the kitchen and brewing out the back,  but wasn't happy the next day I was too knackered after doing 2 back to back AG brews the day , that I didn't want to do much at all!

Next time one brew per day fore sure.

Think Gash Slug does a brew in 4 hours or so on  Youtube.

Cheers

James

 

[rossm]

Yeah Otto I know,  I had already posted before I realized that I probably should have started a new thread or something but I guess I am not the first bloke to get off track in the wrong thread....sorry.

As for suggesting that I might be trying to discourage all grain brewers, no that is certainly not my aim. All that you state in your reply no doubt has credence, and while I will happily drink any beer that is pleasant to drink, I am still to see the big gap between all grain and kit brews that is often boasted by all grain brewers.

I think the one thing we all agree on is that good temperature control is paramount in whatever method of  beer manufacturing we use.

Anyway, I will get off this topic in this thread and let it get back to topic....

Cheers,

Ross

 

[joolbag]

2 hours ago, James Lao said:

Next time one brew per day fore sure.

Think Gash Slug does a brew in 4 hours or so on  Youtube.

Cheers

James

 

I can’t get my brewdays down to 4 hours, no matter how hard I try.

My typical brew day is on a Friday when I am home with the kids. I drop my son off at pre school at 9am and I’ll be home about 9.10. Clock starts.

i fill up the kettle and get it on the propane burner. That takes 28mins to get to strike temp. In that 28mins I can set up my mill, weigh out grains and mill (double crush).

typically 1 hour mash, 10min mash out, sparge. It takes at least 30mins to bring to boil too. Boil 60-75min.

im usually filling the cube at 2.30pm, just in time to pick up my son from pre school!

[Rowbrew]

Hey Jools

My AG brewdays take around 6 hours start to finish including cleanup. Don't know how anyone could do it in 4! That would be wicked

[James Lao]

Getting a brew done between dropping off and picking the kids up from school would suit me I reckon!

Cheers

James