Otto Von Blotto Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 A false bottom isn't used for trub management in BIAB' date=' [/quote'] Although a fair bit of trub rests on mine thereby staying away from the tap. Yeah, that happened to me too except it ended up in the tap more than it did without the false bottom in there. Oh well, it's a much of a muchness really, whichever way works, use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 I've been wondering whether gently dropping a fine mesh colander or something in upside down to cover the trub would help keep it away from the tap once it's settled? Something like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted April 14, 2016 Author Share Posted April 14, 2016 Here we go, this one has a 28cm diameter and only costs US$6.18 on eBay (with free shipping from Hong Kong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 whichever way works' date=' use[/quote'] And, if you no chill, leave the cube a few days and all the crap drops to the bottom anyway, it's quite easy then to avoid it being in the FV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Found something... I put this question to a brewing consultant, (ex-head brewer for Tooheys and was teaching at Ballarat Uni, IBD Master Brewer) so someone I would not argue with. His opinion was that there is a finite amount of head building ingredients in a wort - so why would you remove any. A portion of what people call scum is in fact very good for head building and retention in the finished beer. The parts that aren't wind up in the trub. I suppose you can guess which way I swing on this one. Mark What was the question Ben? Should you skim? Should you Whirlpool? or Should you Whirlpool twice? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 What was the question Ben? Sorry mate. Should you skim???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 What was the question Ben? Sorry mate. Should you skim???? That's what I was hoping it would be. That was a form of Coopers Jeopardy Cheers & Beers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 What a controversial past time we have adopted. We've got skimmers, chillers, poolers, doublers, dumpers, wrappers, lockers, freeballers, baggers, cubas, crashers, filterers, steepers, mashers, steppers, spargers, and Saunders maltas. No wonder we're having so much fun Scottie Valley Brew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 And we all get beer in the end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantor Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Here we go' date=' this one has a 28cm diameter and only costs US$6.18 on eBay (with free shipping from Hong Kong). KR, Just be careful of the cheap stuff out of China. I've been caught a couple of times with this rubbish. They can use very poor grade metals that tarnish and break apart. This could all see your wonderful brew being booby-trapped with bad flavours, bits of metal etc. My example. Ordered a very fine mesh strainer, which was said to be high grade stainless steel, which I did use on an extract brew. Only problem was that as soon as the warm wort (post-ice bath) hit the fine mesh larger holes started appearing in the mesh. WTF? I washed & rinsed the strainer well - planning to use it for something else - then next day noticed that rust was appearing everywhere on it. Went back to the EBay seller and claimed a refund and then threw the strainer. So be careful. Also some China manfacturers are still using lead in their metal production. So be very sure about what you are getting. Maybe the trick might be to do a little whirlpool, and then on bottling/kegging day you carefully lower an inverted bowl down over the muck on the bottom of the FV to contain it? Cheers, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Those are all good points you raise there, except for the last sentence Whirlpooling has absolutely nothing to do with post fermentation trub. Its only purpose is to prevent hot break getting into the fermenter in the first place. It is a kettle technique, not a fermenter technique. You'll still get the same amount of trub in the FV post fermentation. I think a stainless steel bowl with the bottom cut out and put in the kettle upside down before whirlpooling would work better than putting a mesh strainer in after whirlpooling. I noticed on one brew; I left the hop sock in after flameout like normal, but this time I decided to remove it gently before draining the urn to the cube, and all the muck got stirred up again. So it's a risk that putting something in AFTER it's settled would cause the same reaction due to creating turbulence in the wort. And it WILL create turbulence, it doesn't matter how gently it is lowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Yeah I'd agree, a bowl would do a better job, as trub, although it looks chunky and curdled, seems to flow as easily as water. It would flow right through that mesh IMO. It would also flow under the rim of the inverted sieve or bowl, but the bowl might slow it down a tad. I've heard of people using genuine stainless steel scourers strapped to the tap exit hole to minimise trub. Haven't tried that one myself but I have been thinking about installing another ball valve above my existing one, to enable me to draw off the bulk of the wort at high speed, then pour the last bit slowly from the bottom tap. Might leave that for my next kettle, thinking of upgrading my 2kw 38 litre aluminium crab cooker to at least a 50L pot with 4kw (twin elements), as my 38 litre really struggles with 8kg to 9kg grain bills. Doesn't want to re-circulate in that much grain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Why whirl pool if your cubing, if not chilling your wort down or doing late flame out additions! As for trub... if your outlet tap is located in a keggle a couple of inches up.... it meens you need to tilt your keggle over to even get dregs... just don't tilt it all in! Answer is simply don't add trub dregs after whirl pool chilling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Why whirl pool if your cubing' date=' if not chilling your wort down or doing late flame out additions! As for trub... if your outlet tap is located in a keggle a couple of inches up.... it meens you need to tilt your keggle over to even get dregs... just don't tilt it all in! Answer is simply don't add trub dregs after whirl pool chilling! [/quote'] Why whirlpool? Because it isn't very hard to do and it helps leave some trub behind at the first opportunity. Whether you want to do it is up to you. A lot of kettles will have a pick tube inside which is pointed down to the inside edge. Whirlpooling forms a cone in the middle allowing you to suck up as much wort as possible without disturbing and sucking up the trub (and without tilting). Whirlpooling is just stiring the wort, it isn't controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 WHy Whirlpool, Well spotted HAiry... I jumped the gun again there mate... Whirl pool helps chill the wort, whilst chilling but also help flame out hop additions utilize themselves After flame out...Stating the obvious it spirels all the trub into a cone to settle in the middle! So clean wort is transferred! A lot of kettles will have a pickup tubes inside which is pointed down with a false bottom, this isn't needed in a boil kettle, but many have it and that wouldn't cause any problem apart from leaving behind harmless hop particals! False bottoms are idealy suited for grain bed! Too right HAiry! Whirlpooling isn't controversial. Just like a stir plate whirl pools for the yeast starter... that is also non controversial! Just Good stuff cheers hairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Indeed, whirlpooling also has nothing to do with adding flameout hops; as has already been stated 347647706 times in this thread, flameout hops can be added without a whirlpool. I do it all the time. You don't need a whirlpool to allow the wort temp to drop to 78C or whatever the magic number is. Its sole purpose is exactly what Hairy described above, and myself in a number of earlier posts in this thread. It doesn't matter whether you're cubing or not either, you still don't want hot break and other crap that settles in the kettle trub being transferred out of the kettle into the cube. All that happens when you go to transfer into the FV from the cube is that it all gets stirred up again by picking the cube up, and winds up in the FV. Sometimes I feel like it would be easier to explain this shit to a brick wall... Also, the function of a stir plate in a yeast starter is a completely different thing to a whirlpool in a boil kettle. Whilst it might look like a whirlpool in the flask, it is used to keep the yeast in suspension during the growth phase, in order to grow more cells than if it was simply left sitting still. The yeast cake doesn't settle in a nice little cone when the stirrer is turned off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Brewing is not rocket science, however it's also not boiling soup or cooking toast. If you are considering going All Grain or partial mashing, therefore needing to whirlpool, you need to research the methods and listen to season AGers - of which I don't count myself as one. There are losses to be expected, for example in the kettle and IMHO when you calculate these losses you should not allow for tilting the kettle. What you have to do is add more grain and therefore more water to account for the loss, if you do this then you needn't worry about the wort that is sitting in the bottom of the kettle between the trub and the tap; it is like a protective layer. I found early on that if you tilt the kettle then some of those undesirable elements in the trub get dragged into the tap. Whirlpooling does little to cool the wort; I have 20 litres of wort at 100 degrees Celsius I spend less than 20 seconds creating a whirlpool and it has settled in less than that time and the temp is still in the high 90s. it needs to be cubed or chilled. Flameout hops are steeped in a wort of around 90 degrees, stirring the hops doesn't do anything - it is the action of the hot wort that produced the required result. Don't listen to me, do some research; if you are going to the trouble to get the gear to make the beer you may as well take the time to research it and get it right. There's 2 cents for ya Scottie Valley Brew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 There is a lot of commonsense built into the processes involved in brewing quality beer. For anyone who uses larger amounts of grain in their brewing, whirlpooling is one option open to brewers at one of the junctions in the brewing process where minimizing the sediment transfer into the next stage can be beneficial in producing a cleaner, clearer wort. At the end of the day, no-one wants to drink beer soup. I'll say one thing though, if &/or when I do switch to full AG brewing, I won't be faffing around with a lot of segmented clarifying if I can work around it. I'll be hooking up a pump system & at the end of the brewing processes, running the chilled wort through some suitable grade micron filter paper into my FV & be done with it. Sheets of these filter papers have to be cheaper to use in the long run over using these multiple step-level clarifying agents. Just my 2 cents. Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 I dunno.. it's a lot more faffing around than throwing in half a tablet of whirlfloc or a few grams of brewbrite with 10 mins left in the boil and giving the wort a stir once it's sat around for a short period post boil. That's all that's being discussed here... post fermentation clarifying is irrelevant in this instance. It's not so much about producing clear wort, it's more that there are compounds in the hot break that can lead to a premature staling of the beer, hence it's better to leave them in the kettle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 It's not so much about producing clear wort' date=' it's more that there are compounds in the hot break that can lead to a premature staling of the beer, hence it's better to leave them in the kettle. [/quote']I doubt much "staling" would be happening in the 4-5 hours of a typical AG brew day. Staling is generally considered as something that becomes more evident over an extended period of time (eg. bread etc.) Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 You're misunderstanding what I meant. I'm not talking about the brew staling during the brew day, I'm talking about it staling after it's been bottled or kegged. If you let all the hot break into the fermenter it can speed this up which is why brewers do everything they can to keep it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 A little maybe... Bottom line though, is I'm led to believe a 1 micron filter paper will even remove yeast sediment from wort, so it will obviously remove the more heavier compounds that are part of break material, along with easily removing grain & hop solids. The filter setups can be used prior to kegging or to pour through post kegging. I admit I'd prefer to run it pre-kegging to minimize the crap in the keg that then will require cleaning & potentially reduce the chance of clogging whilst on the pour. The filters themselves are easily cleaned & re-useable many times before requiring replacing. I haven't as yet looked into using this method in depth as with my current processes it isn't necessary. But you can bet your arse I will be, if I switch to full AG. For cost effectiveness & versatility, it looks an absolute winner to me. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 It's a lot of scientific stuff to do with the proteins in the hot break. There was a long thread on AHB about it recently which I followed because it was very interesting. It started due to someone asking about transferring the wort to the cube straight after cutting the heat - while all the crap is still in suspension. Everyone's response including mine was, don't do it. From what I have read on the subject, filtering the wort into the fermenter is unnecessary though, and may even filter out too much of the good stuff that you want in the wort. Head building compounds, yeast nutritional requirements etc. It doesn't matter if a small amount of the hot break does make it across. The goal is simply to keep the vast majority of it in the kettle. As you know, I've been brewing AG for 3 and a half years, and my method has never included filtering the wort post boil. I just let it sit there for 15-20 minutes then drain to the cube. Pretty well all the trub stays in the urn, although a small amount makes it across, it can't be avoided. This just settles in the cube and stays in there when transferred to the FV. I have never had beers go stale; although most of them are consumed quite fresh, there have been batches left to mature for longer periods. I have stouts from 2.5 years ago that are not stale. I can't say that would be the case in those longer stored beers if I'd thrown all the hot break into the fermenter with them. They may have been ok, but more likely they would have ended up staling. I've also had no problems with keg dip tubes or beer lines and taps clogging up due to too much crap... that stuff gets left in the fermenter anyway. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 It's a lot of scientific stuff to do with the proteins in the hot break. There was a long thread on AHB about it recently which I followed because it was very interesting. It started due to someone asking about transferring the wort to the cube straight after cutting the heat - while all the crap is still in suspension. Everyone's response including mine was' date=' don't do it.[/quote']I don't ever plan to become a 'wort storing' cuber, so that aspect is something only those who cube their wort will have to worry about, not me. Since no-one else will say it, I will, there's a lot of S@#% on AHB too! I read threads there, & it ain't no brewing bible! From what I have read on the subject' date=' filtering the wort into the fermenter is unnecessary though, and may even filter out too much of the good stuff that you want in the wort. Head building compounds, yeast nutritional requirements etc. It doesn't matter if a small amount of the hot break does make it across. The goal is simply to keep the vast majority of it in the kettle.[/quote']I'm smart enough to know that isn't a good idea at all. What I'm talking about with the filter paper method is purely transfer of fermented wort exiting the FV. As you know' date=' I've been brewing AG for 3 and a half years, and my method has never included filtering the wort post boil. I just let it sit there for 15-20 minutes then drain to the cube. Pretty well all the trub stays in the urn, although a small amount makes it across, it can't be avoided. This just settles in the cube and stays in there when transferred to the FV.[/quote']Yup. It is a choice you make. It is however not a path I plan to follow. I'll be wort chilling & beginning fermentation ASAP. I have never had beers go stale; although most of them are consumed quite fresh' date=' there have been batches left to mature for longer periods. I have stouts from 2.5 years ago that are not stale. I can't say that would be the case in those longer stored beers if I'd thrown all the hot break into the fermenter with them. They may have been ok, but more likely they would have ended up staling.[/quote']I agree with you 100% here. I've also had no problems with keg dip tubes or beer lines and taps clogging up due to too much crap... that stuff gets left in the fermenter anyway. Me either' date=' so happy days! [img']happy[/img] Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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