First timer, be gentle

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, ChairmanDrew said:

On this; how much is enough? I know the packets you buy are usually 11g, the Coopers cans come with 7g, but the Black Rock can I bought the other day came with a measly 5g! I'm guessing its enough for a basic kit brew with a kg of fermentables, but at what point do you decide more is needed?

 

Most yeast companies suggest a pitching rate of 0.5 - 1 gram/litre.  So for a typical 23 litre batch, 11.5 - 23 grams.  I suggest 5g would be the minimum.  

Most of my early kit 'n' kilo batches were done with the 7g packets of Coopers yeast and turned out fine.  Sometimes the Final Gravity seemed a bit high 0.010 - 0.020.  But that might have been something other than the yeast.

These days, I use Brewfather to calculate my yeast.  It says use 0.75g/l for up to 1.060 OG.  My FG's have been better 0.005 - 0.015.  I would not use as little as 5g.

[ChairmanDrew]

So far I've mostly only used the 7g packs that come with the Cooper's cans. The highest ABV I've done is probably around 5.5%, but no problems there.

I've still got the 5g pack (it came with the wheat extract which I used a Philly sour yeast for), so I'll probably save it for the next time I do a low alcohol brew.

[Triple B Brewing]

Ok a question to the brains trust of this forum (and I’ve seen there’s plenty to choose from, so don’t be shy you good folk out there in the brew land  ether )

While we’re talkin bout yeast (I’ve got lots to learn about yeast, including how the different types bring out different flavours, etc)  and specifically how much to use in a brew (and I get the type and OG are likely to influence the result), the simple, (some might even think dumb) question is;

Can you use too much yeast in a brew ? and the follow on question would be;

Why would you look to increase the amount of yeast you use - what’s the point (or upside) other than ensuring a low FG ?

Thanks in advance

[Shamus O'Sean]

56 minutes ago, Triple B Brewing said:

Can you use too much yeast in a brew ? and the follow on question would be;

Why would you look to increase the amount of yeast you use - what’s the point (or upside) other than ensuring a low FG ?

Supposedly you can use too much yeast.  I have never done it, but it is said it makes the beer bland.  My guess is if you go overboard with yeast, it does not have to work so hard to ferment the wort.  So it does not produce some of its yeast flavours.  Plus it will ferment faster.  This speed might not allow the various yeast flavours to develop.

So the answer to the second question is you would not increase the amount of yeast too much.  It is more about using enough.

You should not need to worry too much about pitching too much yeast.  It is difficult to accidently pitch too much.  Even pouring a batch on an ale yeast cake will not be too much.

[Moul I mean]

Ok, l am confused. nothing new there. 
 

The package of yeast with the cans, is that adequate or not? Remember newby here, but a number of batches turned out ok to good-ish, but lately rather less than the others. 
 

Might be newby mistakes,  but still working out what may have gone wrong

[ChairmanDrew]

33 minutes ago, Moul I mean said:

Ok, l am confused. nothing new there. 
 

The package of yeast with the cans, is that adequate or not? Remember newby here, but a number of batches turned out ok to good-ish, but lately rather less than the others. 
 

Yeah, it's good enough. I'm just curious about the finer points of things. I haven't yet myself really ventured into how to improve a brew through yeast selection.

[Shamus O'Sean]

31 minutes ago, Moul I mean said:

Ok, l am confused. nothing new there. 
 

The package of yeast with the cans, is that adequate or not? Remember newby here, but a number of batches turned out ok to good-ish, but lately rather less than the others. 
 

Might be newby mistakes,  but still working out what may have gone wrong

Hmm.  Define "adequate".

Based on yeast pitching calculators, the 7g and 5g packets are not adequate.  Yeast calculators say for 23 litres of a 1.045 OG wort you need about 200 billion yeast cells, but a 7g packet has about 120 billion yeast cells.

However, based on almost everybody's experience on this forum, the 7g packets are adequate.  We have all used a 7g packet in a kit 'n' kilo brew and it came out fine.

Maybe 7g would struggle if you did not also give your brew a really good stir before pitching and you let the fermenting temperature rise too much, say greater than 25°C.

[Pale Man]

3 hours ago, Triple B Brewing said:

question is;

Can you use too much yeast in a brew ? and the follow on question would be;

 

No.

[RDT2]

6 hours ago, Pale Man said:

You can F around and build starters but who does that these days??

Me it saves money and I enjoy the process  of harvesting yeast etc

[Triple B Brewing]

6 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Supposedly you can use too much yeast.  I have never done it, but it is said it makes the beer bland.  My guess is if you go overboard with yeast, it does not have to work so hard to ferment the wort.  So it does not produce some of its yeast flavours.  Plus it will ferment faster.  This speed might not allow the various yeast flavours to develop.

So the answer to the second question is you would not increase the amount of yeast too much.  It is more about using enough.

You should not need to worry too much about pitching too much yeast.  It is difficult to accidently pitch too much.  Even pouring a batch on an ale yeast cake will not be too much.

Thanks for your response @Shamus O'Sean - makes sense. I also note some of your other responses to @Moul I mean in relation to 7g and 5g packets being adequate or not.

Having the insight you have provided allows me some confidence to start using up all of those left over 7g yeasts from cans of hoped extract when the Coopers recipe called for a specialty yeast and advised "place the left over yeast from the can in the fridge for another brew"  

Cheers cobber  

[iBooz2]

15 hours ago, RDT2 said:

Me it saves money and I enjoy the process  of harvesting yeast etc

I do too and in a big way because I get my 25 kg bags of grain basically free when I do.   Yeast adds a big cost to your brew, in fact most times it will double the cost per litre of finished beer.  Why make if for $2 per litre when you can do it for $1 per litre.

Tried to find @Pale Man's post but it seems to have been deleted or hidden.  If he is going to make COPA's then he will have to spin up some CCA.

For discussion purposes, this is a yeast over-build stater process for multiple 44 L batches that I would require two pouches of Pure Pitch Yeast costing me a total of $45.90 without using an overpitch starter.

Presumes a 70 ml WLP-004 yeast pouch with 150.5 billion cells and at a brew pitching rate of 0.7 (million cells / ml / degree plato).

The first over-build stater:

IC = the initial cost of the one pouch of yeast, in this case $22.95

SC = starter cost which consist of 265 g of DME in 2.7 L water, in this case $2.61

TIC = total initial cost, in this case $25.60 TIC = (IC + SC)

H = yeast harvest for subsequent starters.

CSTD = cumulative savings to date

The initial over-build starter costs me $25.60 (TIC), and I get enough yeast to pitch into a 44 L brew and enough (H) to make starter #2 saving me $20.34 had I used two pouches.

CSTD = $20.34

The 2^nd over-build starter now costs me just $2.61 (SC) and again I get enough yeast to pitch into a 44 L brew and enough (H) to make starter #3 this time saving me $43.29 had I used two pouches again. 

CSTD = ($20.34 + $43.29) so $63.63

The 3^rd over-build starter again costs me just $2.61 (SC) and yet again I get enough yeast to pitch into a 44 L brew and enough (H) to make starter #4 once again saving me $43.29 had I used two pouches again.

CSTD = ($63.63 + $43.29) so $106.92

And so on.  The CSTD soon adds up and gives you the funds to purchase grains or more gear.

Each time I am getting pure unadulterated fresh yeast, and I am basically getting my 25 Kg bags of base malts for free because what I save on yeast more than pays for my grains.

 

Edited February 18 by iBooz2

[Pale Man]

2 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Tried to find @Pale Man's post but it seems to have been deleted or hidden.  If he is going to make COPA's then he will have to spin up some CCA.

 

 

Yeah after a bit of thought I realised it was a silly statement. I'll definitely be spinning up some Coopers yeast. I didn't put much thought into that post.

[Pale Man]

5 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

I do too and in a big way because I get my 25 kg bags of grain basically free when I do.   Yeast adds a big cost to your brew, in fact most times it will double the cost per litre of finished beer.  Why make if for $2 per litre when you can do it for $1 per litre.

Tried to find @Pale Man's post but it seems to have been deleted or hidden.  If he is going to make COPA's then he will have to spin up some CCA.

For discussion purposes, this is a yeast stater process for multiple 44 L batches that I would require two pouches of Pure Pitch Yeast costing me a total of $45.90 without using an overpitch starter.

Presumes a 70 ml WLP-004 yeast pouch with 150.5 billion cells and at a brew pitching rate of 0.7 (million cells / ml / degree plato).

The first over-build stater:

IC = the initial cost of the one pouch of yeast, in this case $22.95

SC = starter cost which consist of 265 g of DME in 2.7 L water, in this case $2.61

TIC = total initial cost, in this case $25.60 TIC = (IC + SC)

H = yeast harvest

CSTD = cumulative savings to date

The initial over-build starter costs me $25.60 (TIC) and I get enough yeast to pitch into a 44 L brew and enough (H) to make starter #2 saving me $20.34 had I used two pouches.

CSTD = $20.34

The 2^nd over-build starter now costs me just $2.61 (SC) and again I get enough yeast to pitch into a 44 L brew and enough (H) to make starter #3 this time saving me $43.29 had I used two pouches again. 

CSTD = ($20.34 + $43.29) so $63.63

The 3^rd over-build starter again costs me just $2.61 (SC) and yet again I get enough yeast to pitch into a 44 L brew and enough (H) to make starter #4 once again saving me $43.29 had I used two pouches again.

CSTD = ($63.63 + $43.29) so $106.92

And so on.

Each time I am getting pure unadulterated fresh yeast, and I am basically getting my 25 Kg bags of base malts for free because what I save on yeast more than pays for my grains.

 

Excellent post

[Pale Man]

15 hours ago, RDT2 said:

Me it saves money and I enjoy the process  of harvesting yeast etc

Yes I agree. Its something I havent dabbled in, but should.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

4 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

Yes I agree. Its something I havent dabbled in, but should.

Yeah mate. I still have WY1214 which i bought in 2017 and done over 30 batches with it. You can save a lot.

[Pale Man]

27 minutes ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Yeah mate. I still have WY1214 which i bought in 2017 and done over 30 batches with it. You can save a lot.

Need some schooling on how to do this.

[iBooz2]

20 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

Need some schooling on how to do this.

I purchased some hardware for a forum member as a gift in 2022 which was an attempt to get him to shift up into overdrive but alas it appears he has lost the will (or his license).  Both @Shamus O'Sean and I plus others, compiled an excellent thread on how to do this. 

I will see if I can find it and post it up.  Found it here.

Get yourself a 5 L Erlenmeyer flask for a start or a big empty 5 L spring water bottle and use the shake method.  It's easy and works well.  Later on, get yourself a stir plate.

Edited February 18 by iBooz2

[Triple B Brewing]

43 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

I purchased some hardware for a forum member as a gift in 2022 which was an attempt to get him to shift up into overdrive but alas it appears he has lost the will (or his license).  Both @Shamus O'Sean and I plus others, compiled an excellent thread on how to do this. 

I will see if I can find it and post it up.  Found it here.

Get yourself a 5 L Erlenmeyer flask for a start or a big empty 5 L spring water bottle and use the shake method.  It's easy and works well.  Later on, get yourself a stir plate.

WOW - what a great thread - thank you to @iBooz2, @Otto Von Blotto and @Shamus O'Sean for the info contained. While I am no where near even thinking about going down this rabbit hole, what a great point of reference should I decide to - really appreciate your sharing of this detailed info fallas 

[RDT2]

1 hour ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

Yeah mate. I still have WY1214 which i bought in 2017 and done over 30 batches with it. You can save a lot.

Thats cool I have a Southern German Lager yeast which is coming up two years old with dirty batching and yeast harvesting i would be over 30 batches now with that one!

[Beerdo]

19 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Based on yeast pitching calculators, the 7g and 5g packets are not adequate.  Yeast calculators say for 23 litres of a 1.045 OG wort you need about 200 billion yeast cells, but a 7g packet has about 120 billion yeast cells.

However, based on almost everybody's experience on this forum, the 7g packets are adequate.  We have all used a 7g packet in a kit 'n' kilo brew and it came out fine.

This has always puzzled me. Even though 7g sachets might only have 120 billion cells initially, don't they multiply in the wort anyway? Thus creating billions more cells.

[Classic Brewing Co]

7 minutes ago, Beerdo said:

This has always puzzled me. Even though 7g sachets might only have 120 billion cells initially, don't they multiply in the wort anyway? Thus creating billions more cells.

I have never counted mine. 

[iBooz2]

23 minutes ago, Beerdo said:

This has always puzzled me. Even though 7g sachets might only have 120 billion cells initially, don't they multiply in the wort anyway? Thus creating billions more cells.

They do but each cell has to halve their "own" internal resources and energies in order to "Bud" a clone of themselves.

Think of a marathon runner making a clone of him/herself during a race.  Sure, there is now two of them, but they have only half the original energy each so hence they will probably not finish the race any faster.

Edited February 18 by iBooz2

[Beerdo]

2 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

They do but each cell has to halve their "own" internal resources and energies in order to "Bud" a clone of themselves.

Think of a marathon runner making a clone of him/herself during a race.  Sure, there is now two of them, but they have only half the original energy each so hence they will probably not finish the race any faster.

Thanks for clearing that up. A top explanation, Boozer.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

2 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Later on, get yourself a stir plate.

Yep and if you have an old computer laying around and some wood then chances are you can make one for basically zero cost too. Only have to buy the stir bars.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

Let it beeee, oh let it beeee, let it beeee oh let it beeeee. 

When the said member doesn't make his yeast starters, let it beeeeeeee ohhhh Yeaahhhh!  

We all know who the said member is.