Problem carbing up beer

[stquinto]

Happy New Year to everyone !

Got a question for the gas gurus out there if I may be so bold. I've been keeing for a few months and have had some mixed results. Sometimes all is good, sometimes a bit meh.

Lately my kegs are not getting carbed up at all. I have bumped up the pressure to 30 - 40 PSI for a day, but it hasn't led to a properly carbonated beer with CO2 dissolved into a beer like it should. I burp the kegs and they are full of gas though.

Obviously I could have a leak / series of leaks, and I did lose one Nitro blend bottle from a Guinness keg bursting the beer line which I had foolishly left on when trying to force carbonate. In retrospect that wasn't too clever as Nitro won't dissolve into beer like CO2 will. I lost 3/4 of a tank of the replacement Nitro from a leaky line (not having much luck, and at 85AU$ for a 10kg refill the foray into kegging is getting a bit pricey...)

I've checked with soapy water sprayed onto the fittings. I also turn the filled kegs upside down to check there's no leak. I read that there could be leaks from the gas input washers on the kegs, but which can be hard to identify. 

The question was as you can see from the picture the bottle on the right (CO2) is nearly empty. Could that have an impact on not being able to carb up the beer ? There seems to be enough to serve it, but as no CO2 is dissolved into the brew it is flat but with a frothy head.

Appreciate any advice, thanks !

[Otto Von Blotto]

Looks to still be a reasonable amount of gas in the cylinder. If it's flat with a foamy head then it's either over carbonated or there's something causing turbulence between the keg and the tap and releasing the gas prematurely. 

[stquinto]

Cheers OVB 

I'll try releasing all of the gas out of one keg to see. Also swapping the beer line.

[Classic Brewing Co]

3 minutes ago, stquinto said:

Cheers OVB 

I'll try releasing all of the gas out of one keg to see. Also swapping the beer line.

Sorry to hear of your woes mate, I hope you can sort it pronto.

[kmar92]

If you overfill the kegs and do not have sufficient headspace then they will not carbonate as expected. Carbonation is about how much surface area is exposed to the CO2 under pressure for the beer to be able to absorb the CO2 into solution, that is why when you shake, roll or rattle a keg it will absorb more CO2 as you are increasing the surface area for the absorbtion of the gas.

I am not a scientist, but we have a few here on the Forum that may chime in.

I have just force carbed a beer in a keg and I tried it and it is nearly completely flat, reason for that I feel is I put too much beer in it - 18.6l in a corny and I am thinking not enough headspace for CO2 absorbion. You will hear many opinions about carbonating beer and which method works better, etc. Really it is just how best to dissolve CO2 into a solution, and that is all there is to it really.

I drank a pommie pint out of my corny to help with headspace, flat beer but it still tasted great!

Others will disagree, that is fine.

[Nannaspeed]

Or overfilled kegs with a lack of head space? This has been a minor problem for me sometimes.

[stquinto]

3 hours ago, kmar92 said:

If you overfill the kegs and do not have sufficient headspace then they will not carbonate as expected. Carbonation is about how much surface area is exposed to the CO2 under pressure for the beer to be able to absorb the CO2 into solution, that is why when you shake, roll or rattle a keg it will absorb more CO2 as you are increasing the surface area for the absorbtion of the gas.

I am not a scientist, but we have a few here on the Forum that may chime in.

I have just force carbed a beer in a keg and I tried it and it is nearly completely flat, reason for that I feel is I put too much beer in it - 18.6l in a corny and I am thinking not enough headspace for CO2 absorbion. You will hear many opinions about carbonating beer and which method works better, etc. Really it is just how best to dissolve CO2 into a solution, and that is all there is to it really.

I drank a pommie pint out of my corny to help with headspace, flat beer but it still tasted great!

Others will disagree, that is fine.

Thanks for the tip mate 

I had read that it was counter productive to fill up the kegs up too much. In future if I have a 23l brew, and the trub looks small enough, I'll put 4 litres into a 5 litre keg and the rest in the cornie. 

I might have to drink a pommie pint from my two 10l kegs of Saison, they were quite full 

I really hope I don't have to change all of the various rubber rings on the kegs, they're not that old FFS !

Edited January 4, 2023 by stquinto
typo

[stquinto]

3 hours ago, Nannaspeed said:

Or overfilled kegs with a lack of head space? This has been a minor problem for me sometimes.

Seems to be the consensus. Having said that, I've had a few out of the keg so it can't be. I've purged the head space and taken off the gas a cuppla hours ago - I'll stick it back on and see what happens. Cheers 

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

1 hour ago, stquinto said:

Seems to be the consensus. Having said that, I've had a few out of the keg so it can't be. I've purged the head space and taken off the gas a cuppla hours ago - I'll stick it back on and see what happens. Cheers 

If you do happen to overfill the keg carbing it up through the outpost takes care of that. I sometimes carb through the outpost for the first day or 2 give it a head start then have a taste. After that it goes back on the in post.

[stquinto]

Hmmm, not looking great. I’m trying fast carbing at 30 PSI. There’s enough headspace so that shouldn’t be a problem. This time I made sure I disconnected the beer lines

 

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

Probably a silly question but are the kegs you are trying to carb up cold?

[stquinto]

6 minutes ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

Probably a silly question but are the kegs you are trying to carb up cold?

Yes, they’re all in the keezer. I can’t hear an obvious leak, the gas remaining is fairly constant. I should have a delivery of the cornie lid with the diffusion stone in the next day or two, probably have to try that 

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

1 hour ago, stquinto said:

Yes, they’re all in the keezer. I can’t hear an obvious leak, the gas remaining is fairly constant. I should have a delivery of the cornie lid with the diffusion stone in the next day or two, probably have to try that 

still a bit strange mate hope you figure it out would be a pain that's for sure

[Classic Brewing Co]

I have been kegging for about 12 months & so far, I haven't experienced any under-carbed beers.

I have always filled exactly to the fill line so maybe I am just lucky. I do use extra malts & I am fussy with ingredients so I will carry on that way.

The AG brews I have kegged have been no problem either.

[Shamus O'Sean]

10 hours ago, stquinto said:

Happy New Year to everyone !

Got a question for the gas gurus out there if I may be so bold. I've been keeing for a few months and have had some mixed results. Sometimes all is good, sometimes a bit meh.

Lately my kegs are not getting carbed up at all. I have bumped up the pressure to 30 - 40 PSI for a day, but it hasn't led to a properly carbonated beer with CO2 dissolved into a beer like it should. I burp the kegs and they are full of gas though.

Obviously I could have a leak / series of leaks, and I did lose one Nitro blend bottle from a Guinness keg bursting the beer line which I had foolishly left on when trying to force carbonate. In retrospect that wasn't too clever as Nitro won't dissolve into beer like CO2 will. I lost 3/4 of a tank of the replacement Nitro from a leaky line (not having much luck, and at 85AU$ for a 10kg refill the foray into kegging is getting a bit pricey...)

I've checked with soapy water sprayed onto the fittings. I also turn the filled kegs upside down to check there's no leak. I read that there could be leaks from the gas input washers on the kegs, but which can be hard to identify. 

The question was as you can see from the picture the bottle on the right (CO2) is nearly empty. Could that have an impact on not being able to carb up the beer ? There seems to be enough to serve it, but as no CO2 is dissolved into the brew it is flat but with a frothy head.

Appreciate any advice, thanks !

This is very perplexing.  As Otto says, both of your gas bottles look okay at just over 500psi.  They might not be full, but still have plenty of pressure. 

At 30psi, I think it would take around 36 hours to carbonate a full 19 litre corny keg.  Maybe a bit longer even.

When I had a gas leak, I lost the CO2 bottle overnight.  I am not saying you do not have a leak, it might be just a slow one.  But the pressure at the regulator is still 30psi.

I wonder if the 30psi reported at the regulator is getting to the keg.  If you have a couple of non-return valves between the regulator and the keg, they can drop the pressure a few psi.  The thing is this sounds like a recent/new problem in a system that has previously been fine.  Have you changed anything in the system in recent times?

Also, after the keg is connected to the gas, try disconnecting it and chucking a spunding valve onto the gas in post to see what pressure is actually in the keg.

Do you know if you have had beer blow back into your gas lines?  This can happen if you fill your kegs so they cover the bottom of the gas dip tube.  After filling, you might pressurise the keg to 15psi to store.  Then, when you come to put it in your kegerator, if you set your serving pressure to 10psi, and connect your gas line, the higher pressure in the keg, will push beer up the gas dip tube and into your gas line.  In the worst case it can go all the way back to your regulator.  This will gum up the regulator and it will need a thorough deep clean.  Not fun.

[stquinto]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

lso, after the keg is connected to the gas, try disconnecting it and chucking a spunding valve onto the gas in post to see what pressure is actually in the keg.

Thanks Shamus. I disconnected the gas and took this reading. All of the kegs are pretty flat (except the Guinness which is on nitro blend). Will check tomorrow morning 

 

[ben 10]

7 hours ago, stquinto said:

I’m trying fast carbing at 30 PSI.

Gas as high as you can for 10 minutes, then shake keg like a cocktail shkaer - or roll it.

https://www.kegland.com.au/blog/post/fast-forced-keg-carbonation

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 hour ago, beach_life said:

Gas as high as you can for 10 minutes, then shake keg like a cocktail shkaer - or roll it.

https://www.kegland.com.au/blog/post/fast-forced-keg-carbonation

Good article Beachy.

[Red devil 44]

14 hours ago, kmar92 said:

If you overfill the kegs and do not have sufficient headspace then they will not carbonate as expected. Carbonation is about how much surface area is exposed to the CO2 under pressure for the beer to be able to absorb the CO2 into solution, that is why when you shake, roll or rattle a keg it will absorb more CO2 as you are increasing the surface area for the absorbtion of the gas.

I am not a scientist, but we have a few here on the Forum that may chime in.

I have just force carbed a beer in a keg and I tried it and it is nearly completely flat, reason for that I feel is I put too much beer in it - 18.6l in a corny and I am thinking not enough headspace for CO2 absorbion. You will hear many opinions about carbonating beer and which method works better, etc. Really it is just how best to dissolve CO2 into a solution, and that is all there is to it really.

I drank a pommie pint out of my corny to help with headspace, flat beer but it still tasted great!

Others will disagree, that is fine.

I agree totally with @kmar92 here,

Carbonation is about how much surface area is exposed to the CO2 under pressure for the beer to be able to absorb the CO2 into solution (spot on there @kmar92)

[Tricky Micky]

Until recently I'd been filling my cornies with 19 liters of Beer, using the scales as a guide. I'd been doing the 40psi carb for 20 hours and on every keg so far and there hasn't been a hitch. Well, all except one where I'd only filled the keg with 9 liters of liquid and still applied the 40psi / 20 hour method Oops! Over carbed. 

So whether by luck or good fortune or just sheer tin arce @beach_lifeI've avoided under carbed kegs even after having most likely left very little head space in there for the absorption to happen. It wasn't until I'd read @Shamus O'Sean post about him only filling a keg to 18.5kg that I realised  the error of my ways and quickly adjusted.

Touch wood, (knocking on my skull visual) I've not had any problems so far - I have found that if I have the 4 x manifold open to all four kegs at the same time the serving pressure needs to be around 16 psi. So I adjust accordingly. I feel your pain @stquinto Sainter mate, and trust you find a solution pronto.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Mickep

[Classic Brewing Co]

27 minutes ago, Mickep said:

Until recently I'd been filling my cornies with 19 liters of Beer, using the scales as a guide. I'd been doing the 40psi carb for 20 hours and on every keg so far and there hasn't been a hitch. Well, all except one where I'd only filled the keg with 9 liters of liquid and still applied the 40psi / 20 hour method Oops! Over carbed. 

So whether by luck or good fortune or just sheer tin arce @beach_lifeI've avoided under carbed kegs even after having most likely left very little head space in there for the absorption to happen. It wasn't until I'd read @Shamus O'Sean post about him only filling a keg to 18.5kg that I realised  the error of my ways and quickly adjusted.

Touch wood, (knocking on my skull visual) I've not had any problems so far - I have found that if I have the 4 x manifold open to all four kegs at the same time the serving pressure needs to be around 16 psi. So I adjust accordingly. I feel your pain @stquinto Sainter mate, and trust you find a solution pronto.

I have always filled exactly to the line so we can only imagine it is between 18.5l - 19l. I don't have scales yet but they are on the wish list.

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 hours ago, stquinto said:

Thanks Shamus. I disconnected the gas and took this reading. All of the kegs are pretty flat (except the Guinness which is on nitro blend). Will check tomorrow morning 

 

Cannot see that would not carb up.  Even water will carbonate at 30psi for 2 - 3 days.

[stquinto]

8 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Cannot see that would not carb up.  Even water will carbonate at 30psi for 2 - 3 days.

I took another reading this morning. Slightly lower, maybe that means that some of the CO2 has been absorbed. I suppose there could be a leak, albeit a very slow one. 
I had wanted to avoid shaking it up as it had become nice and clear, but I’ll probably have to go for @beach_life ‘s suggestion and shake it up

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

18 minutes ago, stquinto said:

I took another reading this morning. Slightly lower, maybe that means that some of the CO2 has been absorbed. I suppose there could be a leak, albeit a very slow one. 
I had wanted to avoid shaking it up as it had become nice and clear, but I’ll probably have to go for @beach_life ‘s suggestion and shake it up

 

I would say that drop is just what has been absorbed.

HANG ON!!  It should not have dropped if you left it connected to your CO2 bottle.  So do you attach your gas, raise it to 30-40psi, and then disconnect the gas or leave it connected?

[iBooz2]

@stquinto 

Sainter - I had a similar (if not the same) problem with my kegged batch of CIPA back in September 2022.  Kegged it up cold at 2 C and then proceeded to fast carb at 40 psi for 18 hours then disconnect the gas and leave for a few days.  Then re-connect the gas at serving pressure as per my normal routine and then leave keg at that pressure for a couple of weeks before trying a sample beer.

First test pour after three weeks was very disappointing.  Flat as a tack and looked terrible, similar to your pics.  I left it on serving pressure for a couple more weeks and then another test pour.  Once again it was very disappointing and a terrible looking beer.

So back it went on the fast carb cycle, 40 psi for another 18 hours then disconnected. Put back onto serving pressure for a few days then once again another test pour.  Bugger me it was still the same as the first pour a month or so ago.

So thinking this keg was not getting any gas pressure at all, disconnected the gas in line and pressed down on the centre pin of the gas in post on the keg sure enough gas came out as you would expect.  Then I pressed in on the centre pin of the gas ball connector whilst it was at serving pressure gas came out at you would expect.

So by now I was thinking that the post was maybe gummed up with beer crud, enough to stop the pin from the gas in connector from opening it up.

So as I could not remove and replace the gas in post to the keg (because it was already under pressure which I did not want to lose) I decided to replace the gas ball lock connector on the gas line.  Once I did this and put the keg back onto my fast carb schedule all was fine.

Now I don’t know if it was a stuck pin on the gas in post or the gas connector was not pushing hard enough on that post to open it up.  That keg of CIPA now pours and looks like a Kilkenny.  I will take a pic next pour.

BTW if your beer lines have split open under fast carb pressures then I suggest you have been sold dud vinyl lines instead of the proper EVA Barrier beer line specs as per link.  EVA Barrier beer line is rated up to 200 psi when it’s at 30 C and up to 100 psi when it’s at 50 C.  Just saying bloke!

Edited January 5, 2023 by iBooz2