How To Gain The Most From Your Hops

[Beerlust]

Hoegaarden is a wheat beer & the style is typically dominated by the yeast & malt flavours. There's a wide variety you could use. I read a combo of Styrian Golding & Saaz @ approx. 15gms each boiled for around 10-15mins works pretty well for a 21 litre brew. For the bittering hop, take your pick really as it would only be a small addition as these beers typically aren't very bitter at all.

Just my 20 cents.

Lusty.

[Pale Man]

13 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Hoegaarden is a wheat beer & the style is typically dominated by the yeast & malt flavours. There's a wide variety you could use. I read a combo of Styrian Golding & Saaz @ approx. 15gms each boiled for around 10-15mins works pretty well for a 21 litre brew. For the bittering hop, take your pick really as it would only be a small addition as these beers typically aren't very bitter at all.

Just my 20 cents.

Lusty.

Yeah cheers for that, thats around about the answer i was hoping for.

[iBooz2]

One of the issues I have with hops is that the stated % AA for example is all over the shop depending on which resource you use to look it up.

Now I know that each year’s harvest of the same hop variety from the same farm/location will vary somewhat due to variations in growing conditions etc. but I wonder if the numbers quoted on the packet labels are what we should be entering into our brew software before crunching the brew result numbers. 

For example, I have a couple of packs of Cascade (US) from different suppliers that have different figures.  LHBS pack quotes an AA of 7.8%, Kegland pack quotes an AA of 6.0%, IanH spreadsheet quotes an AA of 7.8%, Hoplist quotes and AA of 4.5-8.9% and Lusty quotes and AA of 6.5% which may well be the case for his actual packet.  I am sure Beersmith, BrewFather and platforms like those have different AA numbers for the same hop too.  I know it’s only a small percentage difference and probably not worth worrying about but it would be nice to know what numbers to run with.

So it would seem we have to trust the labels on our individual packets and put these numbers into our brew software each purchase so as to get accurate IBU calculations.  But I am suspicious that these labels are very generic and not updated with every bulk batch the suppliers/LHBS gets from the processor/manufacturer which may or may not be tested in the first place. 

I am hoping the processor or manufacturer of these hop pellets does actually test and does update their numbers on each production run and that the suppliers/LHBS do actually update their labels as well.

Cheers - AL

[Otto Von Blotto]

I always use what's on the package. Figures in software never get changed unless you do it yourself. 

[Goldcoast Crow]

So I've been off this for a while as I have about 70stubbies sitting in the beer cabinet and have not had the need to brew any more for the time being, I gave the beer brain a break you could say, but as I've now been thru the full compliment of base coopers kits I amd looking to mix my next batch up a bit.... so I went to a mates house last weekend and he buys his kegs from a local micro brew, cheap as, and they have formulated a close cousin of the Stone and Wood Pacific ale.... firstly is there any recipes for this, and secondly how do you introduce hops, in this case galaxy hops to a kit brew?

[Beerlust]

On 6/16/2020 at 5:40 PM, iBooz2 said:

One of the issues I have with hops is that the stated % AA for example is all over the shop depending on which resource you use to look it up.

Now I know that each year’s harvest of the same hop variety from the same farm/location will vary somewhat due to variations in growing conditions etc. but I wonder if the numbers quoted on the packet labels are what we should be entering into our brew software before crunching the brew result numbers. 

For example, I have a couple of packs of Cascade (US) from different suppliers that have different figures.  LHBS pack quotes an AA of 7.8%, Kegland pack quotes an AA of 6.0%, IanH spreadsheet quotes an AA of 7.8%, Hoplist quotes and AA of 4.5-8.9% and Lusty quotes and AA of 6.5% which may well be the case for his actual packet.  I am sure Beersmith, BrewFather and platforms like those have different AA numbers for the same hop too.  I know it’s only a small percentage difference and probably not worth worrying about but it would be nice to know what numbers to run with.

So it would seem we have to trust the labels on our individual packets and put these numbers into our brew software each purchase so as to get accurate IBU calculations.  But I am suspicious that these labels are very generic and not updated with every bulk batch the suppliers/LHBS gets from the processor/manufacturer which may or may not be tested in the first place. 

I am hoping the processor or manufacturer of these hop pellets does actually test and does update their numbers on each production run and that the suppliers/LHBS do actually update their labels as well.

I work off the %AA on the hop bag I purchase. Cascade is grown & produced in a number of countries including the USA, AUS, & NZ. I think NZ may have recently changed the name of the Cascade they have been growing there for legal reasons (or something else). HPA still grow a version outside the USA with the same name & I don't know if it is legally grown under that name in any other countries. Bottom line is, the growing conditions, weather temps, soil types affect the growth of hops, so among other things, the alpha levels will fluctuate between the sources.

Responsible home brew shops will alter the packaged %AA on hops that are over 1 year old (I think?) & re-label them usually at a discounted cost as there is evidence that the available alpha acids available does degrade over time no matter how well sealed, packaged, & stored the hops are. I'll admit I don't know all the specific protocols in this area though.

I change the %AA in my brewing software regularly to match the hop packet %AA I currently have. It is usually only constant with each hop variety for about a year at a time.

It's another reason why I buy smaller quantities at a time & try to use them up quickly before any aspects of potentially allowing degradation to affect my brewing outcomes.

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Beerlust

[Beerlust]

28 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

...Cascade is grown & produced in a number of countries including the USA, AUS, & NZ. I think NZ may have recently changed the name of the Cascade they have been growing there for legal reasons (or something else).

It tweaked my interest enough to go back & check this. Yes NZ did change the name of the Cascade grown in NZ. It is now known as "Taiheke" as I previously remembered.

I know my hop shit.

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

54 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

It tweaked my interest enough to go back & check this. Yes NZ did change the name of the Cascade grown in NZ. It is now known as "Taiheke" as I previously remembered.

I know my hop shit.

Lusty.

Taiheke is similar to Cascade but more NZ ish, and less potent then the cascade. 
Similar to the difference between Ahtanum and Amarillo in my opinion which I’m pretty sure you may have pointed out to me Lusty 

Edited June 17, 2020 by The Captain!!

[Beerlust]

21 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

Taiheke is similar to Cascade but more NZ ish, and less potent then the cascade. 
Similar to the difference between Ahtanum and Amarillo in my opinion which I’m pretty sure you may have pointed out to me Lusty 

The Ahtanum/Amarillo thing, yes. I haven't tried Taiheke vs Cascade yet to compare. NZ must have crossbred the original strain out to something else or altered something important for the Yanks to threaten them with legal action if the name of what they are now producing wasn't changed. Fair call if that is indeed so.

I do love the endeavour & experimentation level of the Kiwis at the moment across hop breeding & craft brewing. I feel they are ahead of the Aussies in similar fields right now in terms of hop genealogy development & credit to them. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Beerlust

[The Captain!!]

51 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

NZ must have crossbred the original strain out to something else or altered something important for the Yanks to threaten them with legal action if the name of what they are now producing wasn't changed. 

I understand that it’s completely terroir going on there. They had something like 8 or so rhizomes imported from the us at the time and it just turned out to be totally different, so thus calling it something different. Taiheke, which is completely uncopywritable. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by The Captain!!

[Marty_G]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:20 PM, Beerlust said:

Personally I feel there is a lot of misinformation circulating in home brew forums & websites attached to home brewing beer these days that is creating a lot of confusion about hopping beers for home brewers, particularly those new to home brewing. This thread is designed to cut through that BS.

Great Idea Lusty. It never happens here, but I am gobsmacked at some of the advice that people give on other forums and the like. 

[Beerlust]

I spotted this over in a recent hop question related thread...

Quote

Does anyone recommend a method to get them to keep their flavour longer?

My short answer...

A great many home brewers these days are hop bombing late with large weights at flameout &/or whirlpool, along with heavy dry hopping. They experience terrific initial flavours & aromas with their beers, then experience very noticeable drop-offs in those levels reasonably soon after, that leaves them somewhat disappointed.

In its simplest form my advice to correct this is to stop hop bombing @ flameout & at whirlpool, & perhaps try hop bombing @ approx. 30mins left in the boil.

If anyone would like me to expand further about my views on this, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Norris!]

2 hours ago, Beerlust said:

I spotted this over in a recent hop question related thread...

My short answer...

A great many home brewers these days are hop bombing late with large weights at flameout &/or whirlpool, along with heavy dry hopping. They experience terrific initial flavours & aromas with their beers, then experience very noticeable drop-offs in those levels reasonably soon after, that leaves them somewhat disappointed.

In its simplest form my advice to correct this is to stop hop bombing @ flameout & at whirlpool, & perhaps try hop bombing @ approx. 30mins left in the boil.

If anyone would like me to expand further about my views on this, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Cheers,

Lusty.

I would.

[Beerlust]

1 hour ago, Norris! said:

I would.

What specifically would you like my take on?

[Norris!]

Well what do you mean? Start adding hops at 30min and regular intervals every 5 minutes, or something? Or skip the 60min addition and do a 30min boil with a FWH to start and additions after that?

[Beerlust]

31 minutes ago, Norris! said:

Well what do you mean? Start adding hops at 30min and regular intervals every 5 minutes, or something? Or skip the 60min addition and do a 30min boil with a FWH to start and additions after that?

When looking at hop characters, what is the first to dissipate? It is aroma followed by flavour, & last of all bitterness. Have you ever asked yourself why that is? Maybe you already know. So if you isolate longevity as the path you are looking for then time spent in the boil surely has to be considered in this discussion about lengthening the duration of hop flavour. Let me be clear, we are talking about lengthening it, not intensifying it.

If you are dumping the bulk of your hops in at the end of the boil, or even post boil, how can you possibly expect longevity of flavour? The proven science does not marry up with that approach at all. Those added last fade first. Simple.

The 30min point remaining in the boil I mentioned, is a sweet spot to work around due to a 50% utilisation factor at that mark that will retain flavour without adding excessive bitterness from your hops.

There's a lot more in this, but I don't wish to be too long-winded in this post.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Norris!]

I am intrigued.

This should push the conversation along. Figure 1 of the extract is interesting along with the last table, 4 I think. It doesn't totally address hop fade, but it does show some research has been done besides people's unique experiences, even though with enough people noticing the same thing, you would have to at least take notice.

I agree that you will retain flavour and lessen the bitterness, with a 30 min boil, but you will lose aroma that could be captured through a flameout and then hopstand. I will even say, that from my experience, the flavour would be the same if not better due to the increased aroma, from the flameout and hopstand additions over the 30 min addition and that it will last longer than the 30 min addition.

The AA are volatile and you are losing them by doing a long boil, which too me is anything over 5 minutes, and even then they are going up in smoke. But sometimes you need some base bitterness, but for me, I am always pushing how much of the base bitterness I can leave and get from the late additions. I used to go 1/2, then 1/3, 1 out of 3 of my ale recipes gets all the bitterness from flameout or whirlpool.

Which leads me into cube hopping. Imagine hops just sitting in sub 80c wort, that cools naturally so time is dependent in how long it is at any temp but for my point it doesn't matter, with no where for the volatile AA to go. Do you think that would retain flavour and aroma while also taking advantage of any changes the yeast might bring, biotransformation? It is like an early dry hop, but without the guilt, that is my thoughts when I do it. But anyways, I had to toss that in as I know you love cubing.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://community.mbaa.com/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx%3FDocumentFileKey%3Deede7cbc-9836-48d8-ab6b-d6b8b53e7792%26forceDialog%3D1&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjpoLOg1I3qAhX8wzgGHdBECbAQFjALegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1vImmM00dl8347KlNrAjsO

Edited June 19, 2020 by Norris!
wrong tables numbers

[Norris!]

Here are the screenshots of the figure 1 and table 4 and it shows the variables.

[Beerlust]

43 minutes ago, Norris! said:

...I agree that you will retain flavour and lessen the bitterness, with a 30 min boil, but you will lose aroma that could be captured through a flameout and then hopstand. I will even say, that from my experience, the flavour would be the same if not better due to the increased aroma, from the flameout and hopstand additions over the 30 min addition and that it will last longer than the 30 min addition.

The original question posed relates only to flavour, & that is what I have answered. Concentrating on aroma &/or bitterness are separate things. I did also state we are talking about longevity, not intensity.

If purely discussing hop flavour, depending on the stipulated time-frame for acceptable longevity, I'd take that bet.

43 minutes ago, Norris! said:

The AA are volatile and you are losing them by doing a long boil, which too me is anything over 5 minutes, and even then they are going up in smoke. But sometimes you need some base bitterness, but for me, I am always pushing how much of the base bitterness I can leave and get from the late additions. I used to go 1/2, then 1/3, 1 out of 3 of my ale recipes gets all the bitterness from flameout or whirlpool.

As you say, aroma compounds are the first to be blown off in the boil. What is not often discussed about the boil are the residual flavour compounds that remain even after a 60min boil & an addition at that point. When you isolate a point in the boil & make that the spot for your only hop addition, you can better understand what remains & how to make adjustments. I don't know many home brewers that have ever bothered to do this repeatedly enough times to learn hop specifics relating to the boil.

Commercial brewers using solely flameout & whirlpool additions quote outrageous IBU numbers that make me laugh a bit actually. When you taste them the IBU number quoted is nothing like the bitterness you are expecting to accompany it. They fall way short, & due to their time in boiling temps, it's hardly surprising.

43 minutes ago, Norris! said:

...Which leads me into cube hopping. Imagine hops just sitting in sub 80c wort, that cools naturally so time is dependent in how long it is at any temp but for my point it doesn't matter, with no where for the volatile AA to go. Do you think that would retain flavour and aroma while also taking advantage of any changes the yeast might bring, biotransformation? It is like an early dry hop, but without the guilt, that is my thoughts when I do it. But anyways, I had to toss that in as I know you love cubing.

I can't comment on this practice as I've never done it. The only thing I can say relates to the temperature. 80°C & below is known to be below hop isomerisation temperatures.

I look at parts of the isomerisation science as a form of consolidation (rightly or wrongly). So purely as a personal view, if it isn't added in the isomerisation zone, it limits longevity on some sliding scale I believe.

The percentage of alpha acid level in a hop is also another very interesting area in this space.

Edit: In that paper you have referenced, how long after this beer was bottled/kegged did this aroma & flavour last before it did a nose dive? 

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Beerlust

[Goldcoast Crow]

I don't know if my last post even posted, but I am about to do a new batch after giving it a rest for a few months, got plenty of pre brewed beer in the beer cabinet.... but I was having a stone and wood pacific ale style home brew at a mates house and was wondering how I would go about getting a similar brew in a coopers fv set up, his was thru a local micro brewer and in a keg....

he mentioned galaxy hops but I wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to and when to chuck it in?

[Norris!]

4 minutes ago, Goldcoast Crow said:

I don't know if my last post even posted, but I am about to do a new batch after giving it a rest for a few months, got plenty of pre brewed beer in the beer cabinet.... but I was having a stone and wood pacific ale style home brew at a mates house and was wondering how I would go about getting a similar brew in a coopers fv set up, his was thru a local micro brewer and in a keg....

he mentioned galaxy hops but I wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to and when to chuck it in?

@MitchellScott

You have a S&W recipe don't you. It would be basically 60/40 base malt and wheat. I would bitter it with a flameout addition to 21 to 25 IBUs with galaxy and call it a day, but I have not tried to clone it, I think Mitchell said he got pretty close. Hope he sees this and can provide the recipe.

[Goldcoast Crow]

9 hours ago, Norris! said:

@MitchellScott

You have a S&W recipe don't you. It would be basically 60/40 base malt and wheat. I would bitter it with a flameout addition to 21 to 25 IBUs with galaxy and call it a day, but I have not tried to clone it, I think Mitchell said he got pretty close. Hope he sees this and can provide the recipe.

No I haven't found any s n w recipes and I have only extract brewed, but I have the coopers diy full spreadsheet and I guess I liked the fruity flavour of the pacific ale, so I might follow that by tin an extract style brew how do I introduce the hops, as I said apparently the galaxy hops is a common pacific ale adjunct.

[Titan]

Here is a good article on hops. https://byo.com/article/advanced-dry-hopping-techniques/?utm_source=Brew+Your+Own+-+Live&utm_campaign=38f66667d9-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_07_05_03_45_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b55e7c72d8-38f66667d9-66124349&mc_cid=38f66667d9&mc_eid=5d10f7fdb3

[Norris!]

7 minutes ago, Goldcoast Crow said:

No I haven't found any s n w recipes and I have only extract brewed, but I have the coopers diy full spreadsheet and I guess I liked the fruity flavour of the pacific ale, so I might follow that by tin an extract style brew how do I introduce the hops, as I said apparently the galaxy hops is a common pacific ale adjunct.

If you are using extract and have a can of pre bittered extract, I like the cerveza for my base, which would work well here as it is close to the bitterness you need and you could start by just dry hopping with galaxy and adding a kilo of wheat malt extract or a can of it.

If you are feeling up to it you could add 500g of the wheat malt to 5l of water. Bring to a boil for 10 minutes. While that is boiling prepare a sink with cold water and ice. Have some cold water on stand by also, about 2 liters. Turn off the heat and add the hops right at flameout. Maybe about 25g or try 15g at first. Let sit off the burner for 10 to 15 minutes and then place in the sink to cool.

After it is cool you can then add it to the fermenter with some cold water to help get it down to 20c or about. I would dry hop with between 2.5g/l and 5g/l on this brew. But try different amounts for your tastes. That will get you in the ball park.

Like you said, coopers recipes will get you close and are a good start to.

[Clinto73]

Hey Lusty

I am pretty new to HB but am keen to start using hops more..

For the dry hopping i saw a you tube clip (american) where he put marbles in with the hops to sink it to the bottom of FV

What's your take on that technique ? I was just going to use the chux (floating on the top) as per the Coopers advice.

Secondly i brought a bag of the Morgans finishing hope (goldings) for my upcoming brown ale. How do you rate the finishing hops against just dry hopping ?

Cheers and Beers

Clint