How To Gain The Most From Your Hops

[Beerlust]

Hello fellow home brewers.

I decided to make this thread to help home brewers understand how best to use their hops to deliver the results they are looking for in specific styles of beer by creating discussions specifically relating to hopping your beer the RIGHT WAY for the beer style you are attempting to make.

Personally I feel there is a lot of misinformation circulating in home brew forums & websites attached to home brewing beer these days that is creating a lot of confusion about hopping beers for home brewers, particularly those new to home brewing. This thread is designed to cut through that BS.

Just post your question(s) & be as concise about what it is you wish to achieve, or the problem(s) you might be experiencing. Responses & ideas of best directions to adopt will come fairly swiftly.

On a personal level, I have been home brewing for over 9 years & have used over 100 different hop varieties over numerous styles of beer & have trialled pretty much every technique available to a home brewer to achieve certain wants & desirable outcomes particularly in hop forward beers. 

There are some terrifically talented home brewers on this forum along with the assistance of the Coopers DIY Team & their access to the Coopers commercial lab, that can offer some terrific advice in this very important area of brewing beer, so why not utilise it for your own gain?

Fire your questions away...I personally look forward to reading & potentially helping with them.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[SG114]

An interesting idea! 

Here's one for you, how to balance malt vs bitterness in a lower abv beer.  Would appreciate some input, decent or drain cleaner?

Pale ale can
500g LDM
300g light crystal, hot steeped 60 mins, 2 litres
25g Cascade for 10 mins
25g Amarillo at flameout
50g Cascade dry hop

[Beerlust]

Hi SG114.

How many litres are you fermenting to? It'll give me an idea of malt to hopping balance. On the surface I'm guessing you're making a mid-strength beer. If so, your hop positioning looks really good. The brew construction lightly mimics Coopers DIY recipe: Nelson's Light

That recipe is the best light to mid-strength beer I have ever tasted, commercial or home brewed.

I'd expect a winner!

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

[Lab Cat]

14 minutes ago, SG114 said:

An interesting idea! 

Here's one for you, how to balance malt vs bitterness in a lower abv beer.  Would appreciate some input, decent or drain cleaner?

I think you've hit on why a lot of low ABV beers lack flavour. Too much hop in too little malt loses any balance between them.

For me, your hop schedule is too much for that amount of malt. I'd find 1.5kg of malt and that hop schedule would be nearer a balanced beer. But that's my tastes.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Lab Cat

[Beerlust]

7 minutes ago, Lab Cat said:

I think you've hit on why a lot of low ABV beers lack flavour. Too much hop in too little malt loses any balance between them.

A lot of low commercial ABV beers lack flavour because they have less malt character as a base due to the narrow-minded mass producers of these beers & their choices of malted grains to use in the production of them. If discussing malt vs hop balance every individual will have a slightly different perspective on that.

I've started this thread to really concentrate on purely your hopping approach, with the idea you have the malt side of your beer already picked out. Malt levels & design are really for another thread & another discussion.

Hops, hops, hops here.

Lusty.

[SG114]

16 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Hi SG114.

How many litres are you fermenting to? It'll give me an idea of malt to hopping balance. On the surface I'm guessing you're making a mid-strength beer. If so, your hop positioning looks really good. The brew construction lightly mimics Coopers DIY recipe: Nelson's Light

That recipe is the best light to mid-strength beer I have ever tasted, commercial or home brewed.

I'd expect a winner!

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

Going 23l. I brewed that same beer ( Nelson's) and yeah, it's fantastic. The one in my post is the bits and pieces left from other brews. Mid strength - I like to do one every second brew.

Thanks for the input Lusty, if you reckon it's a winner, it's getting done!

Cheers

Steve

[Beerlust]

1 minute ago, SG114 said:

Going 23l. I brewed that same beer ( Nelson's) and yeah, it's fantastic. The one in my post is the bits and pieces left from other brews. Mid strength - I like to do one every second brew.

Thanks for the input Lusty, if you reckon it's a winner, it's getting done!

You've learned well from brewing the Nelson's Light recipe, & adapted it well into this recipe of your own.  

I learned a hell of a lot from this little simple recipe too. Let us know in this thread how your brew turned out.

Cheers & best of luck with the brew,

Lusty.

[SG114]

Thanks and yeah I will.

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hey @Lab Cat, Your thoughts on going the other way:  Keep the malt the same (for a lower ABV beer), but adjust the hops and still maintain a balance.

My initial thought is drop the 10 minute Cascade boil. 

However, I think that the Coopers cans over-state their bitterness.

I would say keep the 10 minute Cascade boil, drop the 50g Cascade dry hop, but add 25g of the Cascade to the Amarillo flame-out addition.  If true flame-out, i.e. add at 99°C, you will still get some extra bitterness from this addition.

 

[Beerlust]

2 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

...However, I think that the Coopers cans over-state their bitterness.

What formula are you running for the kits in IanH's spreadsheet Shamus? The base formula in the spreadsheet is not how Coopers calculate it with their hopped tins.

Coopers DIY: How is Bitterness Calculated?

Cheers,

Lusty

[Lab Cat]

48 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Malt levels & design are really for another thread & another discussion.

He asked a question about balance. I answered it. It was about the hops. Don't be a thread nazi.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Lab Cat

[Shamus O'Sean]

18 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

What formula are you running for the kits in IanH's spreadsheet Shamus?

The same as IanH set it up.  IBU in concentrate form x 1.25 / batch size.  

I have reviewed this to the Coopers recommended formula (Product bitterness x 1.7 / Brew volume) twice now and each time I thought it was too high.  The bitterness value I get from all grain brew programs is always (to my tastes) much more bitter than the Cooper's calculations.  The Bootmaker Pale Ale and Family Secret Amber Ale at a factor of 1.7 are 41 and 37 IBU respectively.  These are pretty high IBU's.  When I made and drank these beers, they were no where near this bitter.  They are even behind all grain brews with IBU's around 30.  That is why I have kept the IanH factor of 1.25.  I think that they might even be less bitter.

I like these beers (the Family Secret Amber Ale is probably my favourite made to spec), I just questions their claimed IBU's.

[Titan]

I was really excited by this thread and its purpose. Sadly people just cant help themselves and chime in with their opinions which really can be confusing for the poster of the questions.  I would stand by Beerlusts expertise in this area and would only chime in if I thought his advice was way off the mark.

[Malter White]

I always read the term "hop forward", can anyone explain to the uninformed what it means please?

[Otto Von Blotto]

2 hours ago, MUZZY said:

I always read the term "hop forward", can anyone explain to the uninformed what it means please?

Jump forward on one leg

[Worthog]

Please tell us about BU:GU which I understand you can use as a balance guide for sweet (malt) v bitter (hop).

IanH Spreadsheet and Beersmith use it from memory, I believe.

I find I can alter hop bill and timing to achieve the flavours I want but remain within beerstyle BU:GU guides using the calculation based on IBU's/OG.

This might be a good basis for discussion, although for BU:GU guidance you must be able to calculate your total IBU's given hop Alpha Acid, temperature and timing(?)

Cheers

 

 

[Malter White]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Jump forward on one leg

I've done this and I can't notice any difference to my beers.

[Norris!]

When I read about a hop forward beer, I expect to taste the hops and smell their aroma. It should lean towards the hops if you looked at a brew as 4 parts, malt, hops, yeast and adjuncts. A balanced brew would have all parts playing off each other with no one part shining more. Some brews are malty, some highlight the hops and other highlight the process or wood chips for example to bring the desired flavours. While others it is all about the yeast.

That is my opinion and what I think about when I see that phrase.

[Worthog]

7 hours ago, MUZZY said:

I always read the term "hop forward", can anyone explain to the uninformed what it means please?

I thought "hop foward" beers are later hopped beers. Eg; Hops added later in the boil, whirlpool, cube, or dry hop process to lift flavour/aroma.

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, MUZZY said:

I've done this and I can't notice any difference to my beers.

After about 5 or so beers, try it again. You should detect a distinct taste of carpet.

[Beerlust]

11 hours ago, Lab Cat said:

He asked a question about balance. I answered it. It was about the hops. Don't be a thread nazi.

Your real name wouldn't be Francis Soyer would it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN-aXzpQUdw

Maybe heed the advice of Sgt. Hulka. 

Now back to hopping...

[Beerlust]

11 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

The same as IanH set it up.  IBU in concentrate form x 1.25 / batch size.  

I have reviewed this to the Coopers recommended formula (Product bitterness x 1.7 / Brew volume) twice now and each time I thought it was too high.  The bitterness value I get from all grain brew programs is always (to my tastes) much more bitter than the Cooper's calculations.  The Bootmaker Pale Ale and Family Secret Amber Ale at a factor of 1.7 are 41 and 37 IBU respectively.  These are pretty high IBU's.  When I made and drank these beers, they were no where near this bitter.  They are even behind all grain brews with IBU's around 30.  That is why I have kept the IanH factor of 1.25.  I think that they might even be less bitter.

I like these beers (the Family Secret Amber Ale is probably my favourite made to spec), I just questions their claimed IBU's.

There is a lot of confusion about IBU & how it relates to bitterness at the glass. IBU is a figurative number. There are many different approaches to create IBU's in the boil etc. but not all of them translate into obvious bitterness at the glass. You can add hops at different entry points in the boil to create IBU's, but each of those different entry points will create different perceivable levels of true bitterness at the glass. Different styles of beer use different hop schedule approaches.

As an example of this, Cascade hops @ 6.5%AA. If I boil 45gms for 60mins I'll achieve 38.79 IBU's. If I boil 65gms for 25mins I'll achieve 38.91 IBU's. If I boil 225gms for 5mins I'll achieve 38.49 IBU's. The same IBU value, but each beer will be dramatically different to taste, & very different bitterness-wise at the glass.

In regard to the kits, Coopers state in the FAQ's that the IBU's quoted are pre-fermentation & can be affected by as much as 10% - 30% post-fermentation.

https://www.diybeer.com/au/faqs/#FAQ_4_11

IBU numbers should merely be used as a guide, & it is much better to learn hop schedule structures of beer styles to help recreate them more accurately.

I hope that helps.

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

To add to that, every brewing software program, and Coopers themselves with the kits, calculates IBUs pre fermentation because it's impossible to give any sort of accuracy when the amount stripped by fermentation varies as much as it does. 

The calculation with the kits using the 1.7 figure is a pre fermentation figure based on the weight of the kit. Ian's formula is based on the volume of the kit, being 1.25 litres.

[James Lao]

Always wondered  what the difference was between the 2 formulas for the kits!

[Pale Man]

What would be a good hop to use for a beer similar in style to Hoegaarden, how much in a 23 litre batch