What's in Your Fermenter? 2020

[ChristinaS1]

8 hours ago, Norris! said:

This batch has reached final gravity, OG 1.061, it took less than 48 hours, I probably overpitched with the slurry. Sample tasted good. Kveikwho? Lallemand NE yeast slurry!!

Lallemand NE yeast is not available yet in my area, but I have read about it. Nice to hear you are happy with the results you are getting. What fermentation temp(s) are you using?

Product info says it is a B-glucosidase producing yeast, which actually works better on fruit than it does on hop bract. Might be a reason to play with some fruit additions, especially if you are looking for red fruit flavours. Good luck with your plan!

Cheers,

Christina.

[Norris!]

I generally ferment at 18c but this past one was at 19c.

[Journeyman]

18 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Journeyman, I tried answering you but for some reason my perfectly ordinary post has been "Hidden" by they system. At first there was this message that it would be reviewed by the moderator, but now that message is gone but my post is highlighted in pink and is still labelled as "Hidden." Not sure what is going on. I have never seen this happen before. Has this happened to anyone else? 

I am curious if this post will be visible, or if it will also be hidden.

I had that happen - the post showing as 'hidden' but there was an F-bomb in there. I edited and removed it, copied the contents, deleted the post and then did a new one, pasted the contents and VOILA! it lived!    

[Journeyman]

17 hours ago, Ben 10 said:

Yes, but I swore like I was drinking beers in a pub. Funny that we can be on a beer forum and not be allowed to swear......

Particularly as, strictly speaking, all members should be over 18, right?

[Journeyman]

17 hours ago, Titan said:

The Shaken not Stirred method is absolutely fine for making starters. The secret is to shake the hell out of the wort to get it foaming prior to pitching the yeast. This ensures that there is plenty oxygen which makes the yeast perform better. 

Here is an article I read recently about yeast propagation.  https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/yeast-cultures-are-nuclear-weapons 

From a post by @Otto Von Blotto my understanding is we need to keep adding the O2 so the yeast keeps reproducing rather than going into "party time" making alcohol. I may have misunderkunstumbled though. However it makes sense - the 02 gets it growing but the anaerobic environment gets it working.

[Beerlust]

18 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

No I didn't. I don't even know what williamswarn is.  It was just an ordinary post about Shaken Not Stirred starters. 

Well it stirred someone up. 

[ChristinaS1]

1 minute ago, Journeyman said:

From a post by @Otto Von Blotto my understanding is we need to keep adding the O2 so the yeast keeps reproducing rather than going into "party time" making alcohol. I may have misunderkunstumbled though. However it makes sense - the 02 gets it growing but the anaerobic environment gets it working.

Yes, oxygen is necessary. The traditional way to make as starter is to build up a target number of cells, let it ferment out, and pitch yeast when dormant. This method is also called a "viability starter," and focuses on viable cell count. The Shaken Not Stirred starter is what is called a "vitality starter." Proponents of vitality starters think shear forces from the constant spinning on the stir plate are hard on the yeast, and if allowed to ferment out, their vigor is reduced. It is a gentler process. The yeast are pitched at high krausen, at the peak of vigor. It is also low tech and low cost. You can read about it here:

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=70926

Cheers,

Christina.

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Yes, oxygen is necessary. The traditional way to make as starter is to build up a target number of cells, let it ferment out, and pitch yeast when dormant. This method is also called a "viability starter," and focuses on viable cell count. The Shaken Not Stirred starter is what is called a "vitality starter." Proponents of vitality starters think shear forces from the constant spinning on the stir plate are hard on the yeast, and if allowed to ferment out, their vigor is reduced. It is a gentler process. The yeast are pitched at high krausen, at the peak of vigor. It is also low tech and low cost. You can read about it here:

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=70926

So looks like I accidentally did what he suggests. My starter was nowhere near completed although Kraussen was absent due to regular shaking, the 'beer' above what had settled was still brown and creamy in appearance. And my previous 'rehydrate with sugar' starters were all high activity when pitched. Maybe that's why I have Kraussen forming in the FV within a couple of hours of pitching?

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't run the stir plate the whole time when I do mine, only for the first 24 hours or so. Then it just sits there for another couple of days. The only other stirring it gets is when I'm preparing it to harvest the excess. It gets stirred up fully again, the excess is tipped into a jar and put in the fridge for next time, and the main portion is also put in the fridge and pitched a day or two later into the batch

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't run the stir plate the whole time when I do mine, only for the first 24 hours or so. Then it just sits there for another couple of days. The only other stirring it gets is when I'm preparing it to harvest the excess. It gets stirred up fully again, the excess is tipped into a jar and put in the fridge for next time, and the main portion is also put in the fridge and pitched a day or two later into the batch

Do you run it fast enough to froth it? The link suggests that might be affecting the yeast propagation.

[Otto Von Blotto]

6 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Do you run it fast enough to froth it? The link suggests that might be affecting the yeast propagation.

Not usually, just enough to make a vortex. Any frothing is from yeast activity.

[Beerlust]

My current Sierra Nevada Torpedo IPA slightly modded clone is up & fermenting well. It got up & going fairly quickly with the 2x sachet pitch too. I don't speak much about yeast pitching rates as TBQH it has never been my area of expertise or strength of knowledge despite reading many an article on good practices. It's a constant area of annoyance for me, & an area I know I need to improve with.

I'm happy to take a back seat in discussions regarding best yeast practices & propagation from those on the forum with more proven & reliable methods. I have an old computer with fan & suitable magnets to make a stir plate, & plan to do so soon to improve my reliability issues with re-used yeasts that for whatever reason, I am still having some occasional contamination issues resulting in wild yeast type infections/unwanted beer flavours. Even when pitching & from freshly bought sachets of dried yeast I cannot explain these yeast derived issues without some element of doubt on my part.

I dry pitched one of the sachets & left it in contact with the wort for approx. 12-15mins before stirring it in. The other sachet was rehydrated normally & poured in.

I think I need to tell myself the pitching rate is why the brew began fermenting faster, & not believe my pitching approach had anything to do with that lower noticeable timeframe before seeing obvious signs of fermentation.

I just gave myself another yeast thought provoking headache. 

Time for bed.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

 

[PaddyBrew2]

I’ve been looking into making yeast starters.  Up until now I just chuck two packs of dry yeast but want to start using liquid yeast and making starters 

[ChristinaS1]

8 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't run the stir plate the whole time when I do mine, only for the first 24 hours or so.

My Shaken Not Stirred starters are usually getting pitched at 24 hours.

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

7 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

My Shaken Not Stirred starters are usually getting pitched at 24 hours.

Cheers,

Christina.

 

I could use the pitch the whole thing at high krausen method too, but it would kind of ruin the opportunity to harvest from it. I probably make them a little bigger than needed, but I do at least get consistent fermentation each batch and the beers turn out without any off flavours so I'm happy with my process.

[ChristinaS1]

2 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I could use the pitch the whole thing at high krausen method too, but it would kind of ruin the opportunity to harvest from it.

Not necessarily. For the first time I am trying to overbuild a Shaken Not Stirred starter to be able to save from it. I just made the starter today. Instead of the usual 1L starter in a 4L vessel I made a 2.5L starter in a 10L vessel (plastic spring water jug with ribs on the sides).  Tomorrow I plan to pitch 1.7L of it at high krausen, into my new batch of lager, and let the remaining 0.8L ferment out, to save for next time. This avoids forcing the main portion of the starter, the part intended for the current batch, from having to build up glycogen reserves for a short dormancy....I had been planning to use liquid yeast (WLP830) for the starter but my LHBS was out so I had to use dry yeast (MJ74). A pack of dry yeast does contain more cells than a tube of liquid yeast. 

Wish I had an O2 tank like you Kelsey; I'd use it to aerate my Shaken Not Stirred starter. It would be easier than shaking for 60 seconds. I start to slow after 20 seconds and am winded after 60. Getting old Kelsey. Out of shape too.  Usually get my 14 year old son to shake it but he is away.  

Cheers,

Christina. 

 

[Journeyman]

10 hours ago, Beerlust said:

I'm happy to take a back seat in discussions regarding best yeast practices & propagation from those on the forum with more proven & reliable methods. I have an old computer with fan & suitable magnets to make a stir plate, & plan to do so soon to improve my reliability issues with re-used yeasts that for whatever reason, I am still having some occasional contamination issues resulting in wild yeast type infections/unwanted beer flavours. Even when pitching & from freshly bought sachets of dried yeast I cannot explain these yeast derived issues without some element of doubt on my part.

1. Where do you brew? Kitchen, laundry etc? What is close by you?

2. How are you re-using yeast? Pitching slurry into wort cleaned or otherwise? On a FB brew page some guys apparently just pour their wort onto the previous brew trub.

3. What effects are you seeing with fresh yeast packets? How son do they appear?

10 hours ago, Beerlust said:

I dry pitched one of the sachets & left it in contact with the wort for approx. 12-15mins before stirring it in. The other sachet was rehydrated normally & poured in.

I think I need to tell myself the pitching rate is why the brew began fermenting faster, & not believe my pitching approach had anything to do with that lower noticeable timeframe before seeing obvious signs of fermentation.

Why the different methods in the same brew? From what I've been reading, pitching rate doesn't seem to be the reason for a fast start to fermenting - the yeast still has to go through a reproductive phase before the O2 drops enough for it to roll up to work.

All my brews (with 2 exceptions) have started faster than most on here talk about but I make a starter with (originally) a spoon of sugar in water and add dry yeast at ~25° and let it sit until I have about a 2 cm Kraussen - takes about 30 mins tops.  The only change I have made is now I'm adding in some malt powder because of a comment and reading that from the start, the yeast should be in a similar environment to where it will be working. Something to do with how it sets itself up to start production so it helps if it doesn't have to change gear when it is pitched.

The 2 exceptions were a dry pitch and when I rehydrated without anything in the water. For both of them it was a good 10 hours or more before I saw anything like the activity I normally see after maybe 3 hours.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Journeyman

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Not necessarily. For the first time I am trying to overbuild a Shaken Not Stirred starter to be able to save from it. I just made the starter today. Instead of the usual 1L starter in a 4L vessel I made a 2.5L starter in a 10L vessel (plastic spring water jug with ribs on the sides). 

Mine is about 2.5L in a 4L container. Is there a reason you went so large? I beat the hell out of it before I pitch so it's frothy, then after that just a good beat up with a spoon every couple of hours. After reading the link you provided (I think it was yours) I plan not to beat it so much, just a bit of a stir to keep all the yeast in suspension until high Kraussen. 

Last one I just poured off about 600 ml, stirred it up and pitched. The keeper is in the fridge, looks like beer on top of a trub.

One question - do I need to pour off the beer before I kick it back into action for the next starter? Will the beer being there have an effect meaning I'm better starting with a fresh wort? If there's alcohol in that beer, might leaving it in there create a yeast more tolerant of alcohol in the environment or will it be detrimental?

[Norris!]

I have poured the wort onto yeast cakes a few times, but the bigger the cake the cleaner or more bland the beer can be due to the overpitch, so I generally remove a fair bit and depending on the brew about 2/3 or less. It depends on what you are going for in the glass and what is going on top if the cake. If you just fermented a 1.040 pale ale, with little hops added and then dumped a RIS on top of the cake, it would be pretty good. If you made a 1.060 highly hopped NEIPA and dumped a lager on it at 1.045 with noble hops used throughout, you would pick up some flavours from the previous batch. But that could be something you were going for and expecting.

 

[Journeyman]

10 minutes ago, Norris! said:

I have poured the wort onto yeast cakes a few times, but the bigger the cake the cleaner or more bland the beer can be due to the overpitch,

Wouldn't 'cleaner' be desirable in a beer or is there a different meaning to what I am thinking?

"the bigger the cake" - does it make a difference if the new wort is high OG? i.e. giving the larger amount of yeast more work to do?

Also I presume this is, bottle or keg a brew and go get the new brew to go on top? No storage of the cake?

[ChristinaS1]

44 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

44 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Will the beer being there have an effect meaning I'm better starting with a fresh wort? If there's alcohol in that beer, might leaving it in there create a yeast more tolerant of alcohol in the environment or will it be detrimental?

Mine is about 2.5L in a 4L container. Is there a reason you went so large?

To keep the same ratio as 1L in a 4L vessel, which is what the method calls for. Lots of head space means more splashing and oxygen pick up. 

44 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

One question - do I need to pour off the beer before I kick it back into action for the next starter

Most people do, especially if they are making viability starters.

44 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Will the beer being there have an effect meaning I'm better starting with a fresh wort? If there's alcohol in that beer, might leaving it in there create a yeast more tolerant of alcohol in the environment or will it be detrimental?

There is not much alcohol in there and it will be diluted in the much larger volume in the fermenter.  As to last question, I am not sure but suspect it would not make a noticeable difference one way to the other, again, because of the dilution factor. 

"Clean" means fewer esters. Over-pitching results in very little in with way of new cells growing, so you have tired old yeast fermenting your brew. Okay as a one off maybe, but you don't want to be pouring a third brew onto the same yeast cake.

Some brewers will brew a "small beer" with and OG of 1.040 or so and pitch a RIS with a high OG onto the yeast cake. In a way the small brew acts as a giant starter for the RIS. 

I don't recommend storing a yeast cake in the original fermenter as I prefer to use fewer cells and get some yeast growth. I also prefer to ferment in a clean bucket, not one that has dried crud in it from last time. What you can do is pour that first yeast cake into three or four jars. The advantage of this is that there is less chance of contamination vs serial re-pitching, as you collect more contamination with each re-pitch. The disadvantage is that by the time you use the third or fourth jar it might be quite old, and some of the cells will have died. You could get around this somewhat by using three different size jars: use the smallest jar first and the largest jar last. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited March 2, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[ozlizard]

About to bottle my NEIPA but because I went commando with the dry hopping the trub is up to the top of the bung. Any issues with this or is there a way to avoid getting too many floaties in the bottles?

[Journeyman]

14 minutes ago, ozlizard said:

About to bottle my NEIPA but because I went commando with the dry hopping the trub is up to the top of the bung. Any issues with this or is there a way to avoid getting too many floaties in the bottles?

Maybe siphon it out instead?

[ozlizard]

Just now, Journeyman said:

Maybe siphon it out instead?

That is a possibility, although I don't have another suitable container and there is always the risk of too much oxygen. Given my bad run recently I am trying to avoid anything that can go wrong! I read a suggestion to tilt the fermenter, so that might work.

[Journeyman]

6 minutes ago, ozlizard said:

That is a possibility, although I don't have another suitable container and there is always the risk of too much oxygen. Given my bad run recently I am trying to avoid anything that can go wrong! I read a suggestion to tilt the fermenter, so that might work.

Tip to self: Don't go commando hops!