What's in Your Fermenter? 2020

[Mark D Pirate]

The DIPA I brewed on Sunday went ballistic,  made a mess after blowing the blow off tube straight out within a day 

[ChristinaS1]

On 3/2/2020 at 5:18 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

Not necessarily. For the first time I am trying to overbuild a Shaken Not Stirred starter to be able to save from it. I just made the starter today. Instead of the usual 1L starter in a 4L vessel I made a 2.5L starter in a 10L vessel (plastic spring water jug with ribs on the sides).  Tomorrow I plan to pitch 1.7L of it at high krausen, into my new batch of lager, and let the remaining 0.8L ferment out, to save for next time.

 

17 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Saaz & Mt Hood Lager

Spunded Lager #3....

 

....Mangrove Jack's M76 Barvarian Lager yeast in a Shaken Not Stirred starter

 

Update on how overbuilding a Shaken Not Stirred starter to 2.5L went. Seems to have gone well. The main portion of the starter was pitched into the keg at high krausen and, judging by the gas coming out of the spunding valve, seems to be off to the races. It was a bit difficult to fit the remaining 0.8L in my jar, due to the foam; might have to find a larger jar. It is sitting with some tin foil on top. I am waiting for it to ferment out and will then stick it in the fridge.

I have punched the numbers into my yeast calculator, which is designed for viability starters, not vitality starters. Even so, I wanted to see what it said, just out of curiosity. I selected "stirred" as my method of aeration for the calculations and assumed the saved portion would be used in one month, and that 85% would be viable at that stage (as per @Otto Von Blotto findings; thanks for sharing them Kelsey).

My brews usually have an OG around 1.048-1.050. I want to pitch between 150B-200B per batch (not as many cells are needed using a vitality starter). What with saving 0.8L from each starter the calculator says I will end up with a few less cells with each successive batch. My calculations show that by the fourth batch, the starter doesn't make enough cells for me to be able to save and still pitch >150B cells. To play it safe I will pitch the entire starter when it comes to the fourth batch and then start over again with a new pack of yeast. But four batches out of a single pack of yeast is pretty good! 

I will say that making starters is a lot more work than saving slurry, especially with the added step of having too divide the starter and wait for some of it to ferment out. I will probably reserve this method for my keg fermented lagers, as it is impossible to collect slurry from a keg.  When I ferment in a bucket, I will continue to just collect slurry from the bottom....I usually only re-pitch slurry once, or twice, to reduce the risk of infection.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited March 4, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Journeyman]

10 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

My brews usually have an OG around 1.048-1.050. I want to pitch between 150B-200B per batch (not as many cells are needed using a vitality starter). What with saving 0.8L from each starter the calculator says I will end up with a few less cells with each successive batch. My calculations show that by the fourth batch, the starter doesn't make enough cells for me to be able to save and still pitch >150B cells. To play it safe I will pitch the entire starter when it comes to the fourth batch and then start over again with a new pack of yeast. But four batches out of a single pack of yeast is pretty good! 

I will say that making starters is a lot more work than saving slurry, especially with the added step of having too divide the starter and wait for some of it to ferment out. I will probably reserve this method for my keg fermented lagers, as it is impossible to collect slurry from a keg.  When I ferment in a bucket, I will continue to just collect slurry from the bottom....I usually only re-pitch slurry once, or twice, to reduce the risk of infection.

Would you not be better off timing the brews for each new starter batch and see if it is slowing? After all the calcs you did are not for a vitality starter so they do not necessarily apply. I ask because it seems to me if you rejuvenate the starter each time with the same ingredients, I don't know why it wouldn't give you the same number of new yeast cells to divide and pitch. If the starter is working at all, there's going to be plenty of brand new cells in the saved portion, ready to fire up when you wake them. I'm not understanding why they would slow production...

You have to clean a slurry somehow, don't you? And if the 'shaken' bit only happens at the start, vis-a-vis the link from Lusty explaining the biochem of yeast, I'd reckon the amount of work is about the same and with a starter there's less risk of anything untoward in the new brew.

[ChristinaS1]

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

....the calcs you did are not for a vitality starter so they do not necessarily apply. I ask because it seems to me if you rejuvenate the starter each time with the same ingredients, I don't know why it wouldn't give you the same number of new yeast cells to divide and pitch. If the starter is working at all, there's going to be plenty of brand new cells in the saved portion, ready to fire up when you wake them. I'm not understanding why they would slow production...

True. I may be wrong. My calculator says that the maximum number buddings in a non stirred starter is something like three, although I am not sure that applies to Shaken Not Stirred starters. I am going to err on the side of caution and assume it does....Also, dried yeast have probably suffered some genetic damaged during the drying process and may not be good candidates for re-pitching many generations. Four is good enough for me.

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

You have to clean a slurry somehow, don't you?

Not with the sloppy slurry method, which is what I use. Just leave a couple of cm of beer in the primary and swirl it up, then pour into a jar(s). Next brew day shake it up and pour it in the new brew straight from the fridge. No need to warm it up. Making a starter is a lot more work.

People used to think it was necessary to rinse the yeast to get it off of the trub and dead yeast, and store it under water. But the yeast actually do better stored under beer than under water, and the dead yeast and trub provide fatty acids and nitrogen to the living yeast when you pitch it into a fresh batch. It reduces the need for oxygen. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Journeyman]

28 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Not with the sloppy slurry method, which is what I use. Just leave a couple of cm of beer in the primary and swirl it up, then pour into a jar(s). Next brew day shake it up and pour it in the new brew straight from the fridge. No need to warm it up. Making a starter is a lot more work.

Does this still work if finings have been used? Wouldn't the finings promptly start clearing the new brew?

[ChristinaS1]

18 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Does this still work if finings have been used? Wouldn't the finings promptly start clearing the new brew?

Have not done it myself, but according to @BlackSands you can use slurry with gelatin in it.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Marty_G]

6 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Does this still work if finings have been used? Wouldn't the finings promptly start clearing the new brew?

Ah that is one of the beauties of using kegs. You can put the finings in the keg which is what I do so I can harvest the yeast from the fermenter

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Ah that is one of the beauties of using kegs. You can put the finings in the keg which is what I do so I can harvest the yeast from the fermenter

le sigh... Got a grant for me to go kegging?

[ChristinaS1]

10 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

....dead yeast....provide fatty acids and nitrogen to the living yeast when you pitch it into a fresh batch. It reduces the need for oxygen. 

When I make a Shaken Not Stirred starter, I throw some bread yeast into the starter wort during the boil (which kills the bread yeast), to act as a nutrient. Dead yeast are called "ghost cells," or "yeast hulls." Commercial nutrients like GoFerm, or Servomyces are based on ghost cells, but cost and arm and a leg...they are not even available in my area. My guess is that boiled bread yeast gives you 90% of the benefit of GoFerm or Servomyces but only it costs pennies and is readily available. 

When making a Shaken Not Stirred starter for dry yeast, I use the GoFerm dose for the bread yeast, which is 1.25 x as much as the dry yeast. Example: a pack of MJ yeast contains 10gm, so use 12.5gm of dried bread yeast.* If making a starter for liquid yeast, I would half the dose, so boil 6.25gm of bread yeast in the starter wort.

Ghost cells can also be used to restart stuck fermentations. Personally I have never had one though.

Cheers,

Christina.

* Just to clarify: dry yeast do not normally need starters, but this is for when I only have 7gm of kit yeast for an all malt recipe, or if I am over-building a starter to make a lager, or to harvest yeast for the next batch from the starter, as we were discussing earlier.

Edited March 5, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Shamus O'Sean]

10 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Does this still work if finings have been used? Wouldn't the finings promptly start clearing the new brew?

In my second last brew; a 12L batch of AG Vienna Lager, I used Isinglass and Polyclar during the cold crash.

Harvested the slurry into two 1L jars.  Popped them in the fridge for 30 minutes.  Then poured off the top 1/3rd into 500ml jars.  This is called yeast washing (the trub, hops and other bits stay in the first jar).

I pitched the two 500ml jars into a split 18.5L brew, ie two 9.25L brews.  These took off really well.  Both seem to have gone quite well.  No apparent adverse affects from having had the fining chemicals in the first brew.

These are now both in cold crash.  I also treated them with the same Isinglass and Polyclar regime.  It will be a couple of weeks before I can try these beers, but I think they will be fine.  This approach may not be sustainable though.  

[ben 10]

7 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

This is called yeast washing (the trub, hops and other bits stay in the first jar).

I thought you added water to wash it?

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, Ben 10 said:

I thought you added water to wash it?

Wouldn't you add the water to get the trub out of the FV? Not sure about others but I get every bit of beer I can from the FV so the cake would kinda come out with a PLOP! if I didn't add water and stir it up. So then the 30 mins in the fridge lets the solids settle back out, but not the yeast I'd guess.

11 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

When I make a Shaken Not Stirred starter, I throw some bread yeast into the starter wort during the boil (which kills the bread yeast), to act as a nutrient. Dead yeast are called "ghost cells," or "yeast hulls." Commercial nutrients like GoFerm, or Servomyces are based on ghost cells, but cost and arm and a leg...they are not even available in my area. My guess is that boiled bread yeast gives you 90% of the benefit of GoFerm or Servomyces but only it costs pennies and is readily available. 

I have almost always (forgot twice) added baking yeast to the boil. I bake my own bread and the Laucke flours come with 2 x pkts of yeast. I've never used more than 1 before I've emptied the flour pack. But the missus has gone low carb (so no bread making for a while) so recently I bought some @ ~$3 for at least 20 brews worth.

[Red devil 44]

Kegging my double batch of Hefeweizen this afternoon when I get home, brewed with Liquid Wheat Malt, final gravity 1012, been steady for 3 days, fermented @ 18 degrees for 14 days, looking forward to this batch. 
Cheers RD44

[Otto Von Blotto]

Still got my two batches in their fermenters. Came down with a cold the last few days so zero motivation to do anything beer related. On the upside, I don't really feel like drinking it either so the current kegs on tap aren't gonna run out

[Shamus O'Sean]

15 hours ago, Ben 10 said:

I thought you added water to wash it?

Yep.  I think you are right Ben.  In this case I just used the leftover beer to wash it.

[Beer Baron]

6 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Came down with a cold the last few days

Coronavirus??

[Otto Von Blotto]

9 hours ago, Beer Baron said:

Coronavirus??

Nope. Just run down after a big night last weekend. Can't recover like I used to   symptoms don't match anyway, and I'm feeling better today which is good because I have a practice round of golf happening this morning. Maybe I'll have a beer after that

[The Captain!!]

Dry hopped my cashmere Kveik beer. 
Smelt pretty good going in a couple of points off terminal. We will see in a couple of days

[Malter White]

On 2/29/2020 at 9:49 AM, Red devil 44 said:

I also brewed the Green Neck Lager Muzzy, been kegged about 2 weeks, haven’t put it on tap yet, jut waiting its turn for a free tap, interested to compare colour difference between bottled & kegged..

I used 3/4 kg liquid dry malt and 250g dextrose, so see how that turns out, I’ll post a pic when it’s on tap.

‘I brew 20L in my fermenter so don’t bottle, just enough to fill my kegs.
 

 Cheers RD44

Hey Red.

This is my Green Neck Lager made up to 23litres. No cold crash or finings. Been in the bottle 20 days although recipe called for 28 days but had no alternative beers to drink today. It tastes good and looks pretty good too, I think.

The photo makes it look like it has a red tinge but it's more golden than the photo suggests. Probably the background doesn't help.

[Red devil 44]

27 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

Hey Red.

This is my Green Neck Lager made up to 23litres. No cold crash or finings. Been in the bottle 20 days although recipe called for 28 days but had no alternative beers to drink today. It tastes good and looks pretty good too, I think.

The photo makes it look like it has a red tinge but it's more golden than the photo suggests. Probably the background doesn't help.

Looks good mate, really loving the Caribbean Siesta I did from the recipes, I’m sure that won’t last long

[iBooz2]

Got a Summer Ale in FV #2 and just laid down another Lightning Strike Ale in FV #1 on Saturday  Stuck to the 5 minute hop boil but extended the steep of hops with this one to see what the differences turn out like.  Gotta get me a FV #3 as I am drinking them just about as fast as I can brew them. ha ha..

Next in the magazine to shoot is a Steam Beer then a Green Neck Lager closely behind it.  Might do the odd lager from now on as we move into winter as I can then move one of the FV's out of a controlled fridge and leave at ambient, no not the lager one, any ale batch from about early April on.

Cheers - AL

[karlos_1984]

On 3/4/2020 at 4:28 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Simple Pilsner SMaSH

• 3.2kg Pilsner Malt 5.3 EBU
• 65°C Mash for 60 minutes, 75°C for 10 minutes
• 90 minute boil
• 40g Hallertau @60 for 22.6 IBU
• Harvested MJ Bavarian Lager yeast

OG 1.042. 

Predicted FG 1.008 - Actual FG 1.010 for an ABV of 4.2% plus 0.4% for bottle conditioning = 4.6%

I spilt this brew into two craft fermenters.  One of the fermenters I dry hopped with the 68g of Riwaka.  I left the other fermenter dry hop free.  

After four days of dry hopping that brew, on lifting the lid, the smell is like faint terpentine, but in a good way.  Maybe this is too much Riwaka?  @ChristinaS1 queried my dry hop rate of around 7g/L for the half batch.  In the post, a by-product called A-terpeniol was mentioned.  Maybe this is what I am smelling.  Its name resembles terpentine.  A little googling actually confirms it.  However, A-terpeniol is considered a good aroma - similar to lilac.  The SG sample smelled fine and tasted good.   This batch will be bottled this weekend.  It, and its unhopped sibling, are currently in the middle of a cold crash.  The final tasting will be interesting.

Will be keen to hear how this one turns out.

With that grain bill of only 3.2 kg, what volume was your mash, sparge (if applicable) and boil volume? Also how much wort did you end up with and splitting?

[ChristinaS1]

Put this down today:

 

Sour Cherry ESB

 

1.7kg Lager kit

1.43gm Maris Otter 

250gm C60L 

70gm C120L 

463mL Terra Beata Sour Cherry juice

25gm Fuggles @ 30 min

35gm EKG @ 2 min

10mL Clarity Ferm

23L RO water 

WLP095 Burlington Ale BBE 14-03-202 (ie 7 days before expiry, estimated viability 28%) in 2.5L SNS starter fortified with 12.25gm boiled bread yeast.

 

OG 1.048 FG 1.010; ABV 4.9% keg; EBC 22; IBU 33; BU:GU 0.70.

 

First time using this yeast, which is supposedly the Conan strain from Heady Topper, and before that from Greg Noonan's brew pub in Vermont, and before that from some brewery in England that Greg had visited in the 1980s. Spotted a nearly expired tube of this in the drawer of the fridge at my LHBS. It is not a yeast my LHBS lists on their website; it was a special order that someone never picked up. In spite of its age it seems to have revived well in the Shaken Not Stirred starter.

 

A couple of months ago we went on a mini-vacation to another town and visited the local pub. Met some locals there who are also home brewers and lovers of English Bitters. She highly recommended adding cherry juice to the wort so I thought I would give it a try. 

 

I might have accidentally reversed the order of my hops and put the EKG in first and the Fuggles in last. If so the beer will end up more bitter than intended as the AA level of the EKG was more than double that of the Fuggles....Had originally intended to only boil the Fuggles for 20 minutes but increased the time to 30 minutes because of their wimpy AA level. 

 

Cheers,

 

Christina. 

 

PS Cross posted in The English Bitter thread.

Edited March 8, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[ChristinaS1]

3 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

WLP095 Burlington Ale BBE 14-03-202 (ie 7 days before expiry, estimated viability 28%) in 2.5L SNS starter fortified with 12.25gm boiled bread yeast....

 

First time using this yeast, which is supposedly the Conan strain from Heady Topper, and before that from Greg Noonan's brew pub in Vermont, and before that from some brewery in England that Greg had visited in the 1980s. Spotted a nearly expired tube of this in the drawer of the fridge at my LHBS. It is not a yeast my LHBS lists on their website; it was a special order that someone never picked up. In spite of its age it seems to have revived well in the Shaken Not Stirred starter.

 

 

Just two hours after pitching the starter the blow off tube is already bubbling! I have never seen such a short lag time, even with previous Shaken Not Stirred starters. I am so surprised, given that I thought I was under-pitching. The Brewunited calculator estimated I had 28B viable cells. It calculated that a in a manually shaken 2.5L starter they would grow to 183B cells. This was less than the 211B the calculator called for but I felt it was close enough for a vitality starter. Now  I am wonder how to explain this apparent over-pitch* :

1.) This yeast is a beast.

2.) The viability of the yeast was much higher than the 28% predicted by the Brewuntied calculator.

Interestingly MrMalty estimated only 10% of cells were viable, and the Brewer's Friend calculator estimated 0% were viable. Thoughts?

Weird.

Cheers,

Christina.

* I was a bit suspicious already when I pitched the starter. I pitched it 22 hours after inoculation but noted fermentation in the starter was already slowing. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Beerlust]

42 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Just two hours after pitching the starter the blow off tube is already bubbling! I have never seen such a short lag time, even with previous Shaken Not Stirred starters. I am so surprised, given that I thought I was under-pitching. The Brewunited calculator estimated I had 28B viable cells. It calculated that a in a manually shaken 2.5L starter they would grow to 183B cells. This was less than the 211B the calculator called for but I felt it was close enough for a vitality starter. Now  I am wonder how to explain this apparent over-pitch* :

1.) This yeast is a beast.

2.) The viability of the yeast was much higher than the 28% predicted by the Brewuntied calculator.

Interestingly MrMalty estimated only 10% of cells were viable, and the Brewer's Friend calculator estimated 0% were viable. Thoughts?

Weird.

Cheers,

Christina.

* I was a bit suspicious already when I pitched the starter. I pitched it 22 hours after inoculation but noted fermentation in the starter was already slowing. 

About 5-6 years ago I asked some similar questions about required starting cell counts & how what was produced through the CCA re-activation process gave a final count way short of the Mr. Malty & other yeast calculators advice on what is required to ferment out certain gravity worts.

 

Like yourself, I do find this scenario a little hard to explain & comprehend. I don't really have an opinion on it, the facts speak for themselves though.

Best of luck with the brew.

Lusty.