Naturally carbonating kegs

[craigb12]

Hey,

 

I managed to clean out my dip tubes after the dry-hopping disaster (it took much spanner work, and about 40psi of pressurised water being pushed into the 'out' valve).

 

Now I'm kegging a few batches of the wheat beer. So far i've only ever force carbonated the kegs, but i want to try naturally carbonating them with the addition of sugar. Does anyone else do this regularly? I imagine that you just treat the keg like one big bottle... add the same amount of sugar (9g/litre, if i remember right) and condition at the same temperature for the same amount of time... yeah?

 

Compared to force carbonating, does it pour any differently from the keg? I've heard that it can give the beer better head retention. I'm also thinking that the serving pressure on the co2 tank will have to be equal to or greater than the pressure in the keg (otherwise beer will flow back up the piping and into the gas regulator) but how do you figure out what the pressure in the keg is? I suppose that there's quite a bit to think about when conditioning this way... any advice would be really appreciated.

 

Thanks

Craig

 

 

[Guest]

I don't naturally condition my kegs. However, I do understand that you only need half the sugars, you would normally use for bottles. (Which is about 70g-80g)

You will end up with excess sediment in the bottom and I have heard of some people cutting their diptubes so as not to pick this up. If you are to cut the dip tube you would want to let it oxidize before using it. Personally I wouldn't bother as you should only get the first glass pour being a bit cloudy.

 

After you put the sugar in you should still purge the air from the head space once sealed. Then just leave it as you would a bottle.

Let the keg sit at around ~18C for about a week then store it for 2-3 weeks and it should be fine.

 

This is my understanding.

[Matty A]

I have never done this before as I don't keg, but in the case of naturally conditioning do you need to purge the oxygen out, or will it be like in the bottle where the yeast will use the oxygen aswell as the sugar.

 

My understanding was that yeast want oxygen to help make the CO2 and the problem of oxygenating happens after the yeast completes fermenting.

 

Like I said before I could be completely wrong.

[PB2]

I naturally condition all my kegs - FAQ [biggrin]

 

 

I do this:

1. Add 1/3 Cup of white sugar to a clean/sanitised keg.

2. Fill to just short of the "gas in" tube and seal the keg.

3. Turn it on its head and rock back and forth to help dissolve the sugar and check for leaks.

4. Store at 18C+ for at least 2 weeks.

5. Sit in the fridge for 24hrs (roll it around the floor first if you want even cloudiness through the keg).

6. Crack the head pressure off the brew via the pressure relief valve.

7. Attached the gas line, head pressure set to what you would normally use for your system with force carbed kegs.

8. First pours will be cloudy and gradually become more clear as you get further into the keg.

 

[Guest]

yeast will use the oxygen aswell as the sugar.

 

My understanding was that yeast want oxygen to help make the CO2 and the problem of oxygenating happens after the yeast completes fermenting.

 

I believe, the yeast need O2 when they multiply. You give them a good dose of O2 at the start so they can build up a good cell count in your wort then they go to their anaerobic stage and start consuming the sugars. That's what happens between pitching and the start of fermentation.

 

Hrrmmm.... I think I am beginning to read to much and turning all nerdy [rightful]

[Ollie]

I naturally condition all my kegs - FAQ [biggrin]

 

Hey Paul,

 

How come you naturally condition all your kegs as opposed to force carb'ing them?

 

Granted you probably have a much larger supply of beer than most of us working for a brewery [cool] so you are probably happy to wait a few weeks after transferring from FV to keg but putting the timeline aside does the beer turn out better if you naturally condition the keg? I have never tried this method and if you reckon it is a big difference I will give it a crack [biggrin]

[Matty A]

Give it a crack atleast once Ollie.

 

I thought the idea of it was that after the yeast has finished fermenting it starts to go to sleep but when more sugar is added to the keg with the beer and the yeast come back to life.

 

I assume added to this would be that the yeast would clean up after themselves alot more as well.

 

I am only guessing as I don't keg but surely Paul has the right answer

[Ollie]

Hey Matty,

Yeah after posting that yesterday I thought I must give it a go myself to really see any difference...

So knowing that I had a Coopers Pale on the brew at the moment and another spare in the cupboard I went straight home and mixed it up so I have a direct comparison to make on the two. Plus I have a lot more beer to get through now [biggrin]

 

Still interested to hear Paul's reason for never force carb'ing though...

[PB2]

In the first instance (late 90's), I was often making wannabe Sparkling Ale, using yeast I had cultured up from bottles of Coopers. Once I bought my first 2 kegs in 2000, I wanted my wannabe Sparkling to present on tap in a similar cloudy (but fine [cool] ) way to the commercial version (all kegs of Coopers ale are naturally conditioned). So, natural conditioning and rolling the keg around the garage floor, prior to placing in the fridge, gave the best results.

 

Some benefits from natural conditioning:

- Use less gas.

- Beer lasts longer in the keg.

- Secondary ferment may help clean up any funky aromas/flavours thrown in primary.

- No need for a diacetyl rest if fermenting with lager yeast.

- No need to purge kegs with CO2 or burp them (yeast is an oxygen scavenger).

 

 

 

[Pezzza]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2011 at 8:17 PM, PB2 said:

In the first instance (late 90's), I was often making wannabe Sparkling Ale, using yeast I had cultured up from bottles of Coopers. Once I bought my first 2 kegs in 2000, I wanted my wannabe Sparkling to present on tap in a similar cloudy (but fine [cool] ) way to the commercial version (all kegs of Coopers ale are naturally conditioned). So, natural conditioning and rolling the keg around the garage floor, prior to placing in the fridge, gave the best results.

Some benefits from natural conditioning:

- Use less gas.

- Beer lasts longer in the keg.

- Secondary ferment may help clean up any funky aromas/flavours thrown in primary.

- No need for a diacetyl rest if fermenting with lager yeast.

- No need to purge kegs with CO2 or burp them (yeast is an oxygen scavenger).

 

Wow @PB2 how good that there is this wonderful history here.  I am thinking of getting a couple of small kegs - and was hoping to do without the major C02 bottle and lines and kegerator etc investment - and just use the mini kegs and then do natural carbonation in the kegs... with a little help to keep carbed up as pouring with the soda stream C02 bulbs... guess I could get the CO2 bottle too to assist in keeping carbed up while I dispense fluid - but really like the idea of naturally carbing up the kegs - as I have done with Coopers KnK (and now just recently trying AG) in the bottle for prolly near 30 years now...  so there is no real problem in achieving a decent level of carbonation in the bigger volume with a secondary ferment in the keg?

And can I use LDME as well if I have some... otherwise sugar is fine?

Examples of possible units below... 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I reckon a CO2 cylinder would be cheaper in the long run than Sodastream or CO2 bulbs, even if you're only using it to dispense and maintain carbonation. 

It's also about personal taste. I had no problems with the flavour from bottled beer naturally carbonated, but I decided to do the force carbonation in my kegs when I started, for various reasons but one was comparing the taste. In the end I preferred it that way and have kept doing it since. 

If or when you do get a keg setup of some sort, try it both ways and decide which one you like better. To me, the only situation that one method is better than the other is in how you perceive the flavour of the beer, because they both work. 

[Pezzza]

21 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I reckon a CO2 cylinder would be cheaper in the long run than Sodastream or CO2 bulbs, even if you're only using it to dispense and maintain carbonation. 

It's also about personal taste. I had no problems with the flavour from bottled beer naturally carbonated, but I decided to do the force carbonation in my kegs when I started, for various reasons but one was comparing the taste. In the end I preferred it that way and have kept doing it since. 

If or when you do get a keg setup of some sort, try it both ways and decide which one you like better. To me, the only situation that one method is better than the other is in how you perceive the flavour of the beer, because they both work. 

Thanks Kelsey.  Yeah was looking at starting simple - but I reckon you are right with the bulbs... and no need to generate more waste (empty bulbs) if you can get it out of a refillable cylinder. 

And yes it would be good to try both ways.

Did you ever try natural carbonation in the kegs?  As opposed to the experience of the specific flavour from bottle carb... ?

I suspect it would be good for some brews and not necessarily for others myself... 

So if you are doing a Coopers Sparkling Clone or Hefeweizen - then yes... but maybe not when chasing crystal clear Pils for instance...

[Otto Von Blotto]

I haven't tried it as yet. Apart from preferring the flavour in the beers I drink, it's also a hell of a lot quicker carbonating it with the cylinder. 

[Pezzza]

Fer Sher

[Cheap Charlie]

Old thread, but didn't want to start a new one.

Does anyone have experience naturally carbonating the keg before fermentation has finished? What I mean is, say the estimated FG would be 1.010 and you kegged it at 1.020 so it would carbonate, finish and then let it condition for a couple of weeks. Would this work? Or is it better to let the beer finish in the FV to produce a better flavour. Any experiences out there? And if so, assuming the brew would finish at 1.010 what SG should I keg at to achieve good carbonation?

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

1 hour ago, Cheap Charlie said:

Old thread, but didn't want to start a new one.

Does anyone have experience naturally carbonating the keg before fermentation has finished? What I mean is, say the estimated FG would be 1.010 and you kegged it at 1.020 so it would carbonate, finish and then let it condition for a couple of weeks. Would this work? Or is it better to let the beer finish in the FV to produce a better flavour. Any experiences out there? And if so, assuming the brew would finish at 1.010 what SG should I keg at to achieve good carbonation?

@Coopers DIY Beer Team I am interested to know this myself as it does not look like coopers bottles have had sugar added is this the breweries method? Also mentioned above it says there is no need for a Diacel rest for Lagers if naturally condition do you second that?

[Cheap Charlie]

1 hour ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

@Coopers DIY Beer Team I am interested to know this myself as it does not look like coopers bottles have had sugar added is this the breweries method? Also mentioned above it says there is no need for a Diacel rest for Lagers if naturally condition do you second that?

I agree, the yeast in the pale ale bottles looks way different from the sediment in my brews brewed with CCA. Yeah, good point, I suspect you are correct, interested in their bottling SG and also their FG.

As to your second question, newbie response sorry, I'm not sure about diacetyl rest, I have read it applies both to lagers and ales, but more foe lagers. I have only attempted one lager, and after 3 weeks I bottled it after my stocks were getting low. Unfortunately my setup is small and demand is high , so I've never seen a beer more than two months old.  My guess is for a lager you would leave the naturally conditioned keg or early kegged beer in ferment temps for two weeks then chuck them in the fridge and let them mature as normal.

Brilliant question for @Coopers DIY Beer Team 

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 hours ago, Cheap Charlie said:

Old thread, but didn't want to start a new one.

Does anyone have experience naturally carbonating the keg before fermentation has finished? What I mean is, say the estimated FG would be 1.010 and you kegged it at 1.020 so it would carbonate, finish and then let it condition for a couple of weeks. Would this work? Or is it better to let the beer finish in the FV to produce a better flavour. Any experiences out there? And if so, assuming the brew would finish at 1.010 what SG should I keg at to achieve good carbonation?

I have not heard of folks on the Forum doing as you suggest.  I guess it is possible, but you would have to know a fair bit about CO2 production and FG to get it right.  With some trial and error you might work something out.  For me, I make too many different beers, so it would be a headache to try to figure out.

Not sure that letting the beer finish in the FV produces better flavour than transferring it before FG and trying to carbonate it in the keg.  I think doing what @PB2, (a legendary moderator at Coopers, now retired) says is best practice.  Let the beer finish in the FV.  But then naturally carbonate in the keg using sugar.  He outlines his process in the thread.  That is my recommendation.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

@Shamus O'Sean the part that myself and cheap charlie are trying to work out is how coopers do it. I once read that breweries like coopers can add fresh yeast before bottoling or now canning. Does it mean a small amount of sugar is added to carbonate? or bottled before fg? or adding fresh yeast and CO2 or a combination of both. 

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

12 minutes ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

@Shamus O'Sean the part that myself and cheap charlie are trying to work out is how coopers do it. I once read that breweries like coopers can add fresh yeast before bottoling or now canning. Does it mean a small amount of sugar is added to carbonate? or bottled before fg? or adding fresh yeast and CO2 or a combination of both. 

 

Great questions.  Let's see what we hear back from Coopers.  Some of it might be commercial-in-confidence.  Meaning, they might not be able to tell us.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

49 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Great questions.  Let's see what we hear back from Coopers.  Some of it might be commercial-in-confidence.  Meaning, they might not be able to tell us.

I was thinking exactly the same but without the presence of the sediment we see in bottled home brews, plus the plentiful fresh yeast it's probably almost correct.  

In saying that all you that have brewed pale ales and sparkling clones with coopers yeast. Have you cold crashed before kegging or added it after fermented and kept maximum yeast?

[Shamus O'Sean]

8 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

I was thinking exactly the same but without the presence of the sediment we see in bottled home brews, plus the plentiful fresh yeast it's probably almost correct.  

In saying that all you that have brewed pale ales and sparkling clones with coopers yeast. Have you cold crashed before kegging or added it after fermented and kept maximum yeast?

I pretty much cold crash every beer I brew before I keg and/or bottle it.  I also add finings to the fermenter for brews that I want as clear as possible.  The Coopers 2022 Vintage Ale I recently did was cold crashed and fined and then bottled.  Half were primed with 1 & 1/2 teaspoons of plain white sugar and half were done with 2 carbonation drops.  They will carbonate fine.  There is a slight dusting of yeast sediment on the bottom of the bottles.

I think you might be right in thinking that Coopers add a small amount of fresh yeast to their bottles when packaging.

[Coopers DIY Beer Team]

We would never do this (kegging at a certain Gravity towards the end of the primary fermentation) with our commercial ale kegs and don't recommend the practice at home, because there's too much guesswork involved. Wait for the brew to fully attenuate then prime at a rate to achieve your desired carbonation level. 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:13 PM, Cheap Charlie said:

Old thread, but didn't want to start a new one.

Does anyone have experience naturally carbonating the keg before fermentation has finished? What I mean is, say the estimated FG would be 1.010 and you kegged it at 1.020 so it would carbonate, finish and then let it condition for a couple of weeks. Would this work? Or is it better to let the beer finish in the FV to produce a better flavour. Any experiences out there? And if so, assuming the brew would finish at 1.010 what SG should I keg at to achieve good carbonation?

You can do it but as others have said it will be guesswork. I suggest getting a spunding valve so that there is less guess work involved. I did it a couple of months back on a run of Asian lagers. 15psi at room temp for the last 6 or 7 points. I tasted the first a couple of weeks ago. It needed more co2 as it was a little under carbed and it also doesn't seem to be as clean as what I did in the traditional method so its probably not something I'm likely to pursue again. Ales might be  different story. Haven't tried an ale.

[Malter White]

I have 12 of those plastic 8l kegs from Kegland but they don't have gas in/beer out posts. They use a removable tap head system, of which I only have 3, so purging oxygen became an issue for me. To alleviate oxidisation I just add a teaspoon of sugar to each keg and cap them. It doesn't carbonate the beer much but it seems to have the desired effect. I have considered naturally carbonating but I'm reluctant to do so because the reason I got into kegs was to avoid cloudy beer.