Head retention

[grogdog]

Forgot your carb drops mate..? easily done.

[Beer Baron]

21 hours ago, Worthog said:

Anyone struggling for head retention should ultimately set their sights on All Grain brewing as their goal. I'm into my second year;

Cheers

Nice lacing!! 

I reckon you need more glassware

[Classic Brewing Co]

21 hours ago, Worthog said:

Anyone struggling for head retention should ultimately set their sights on All Grain brewing as their goal. I'm into my second year;

Cheers

 

[Classic Brewing Co]

Hey Worthog,

That's great looking beer, I am anxious to get into that style of brewing, but lacking the equipment to do so, however that is on my list. Cheers.

[Worthog]

4 minutes ago, Beer Baron said:

..I reckon you need more glassware

Plenty more under the bar sink, BB. 

[John304]

Yep, I haven’t looked back 

[Beers Gone Wild]

I find the Coopers Amber malt extract gives me better Head & retention, than the light LME.

[Beerlust]

10 hours ago, Beers Gone Wild said:

I find the Coopers Amber malt extract gives me better Head & retention, than the light LME.

It will as it has cara/crystal type malts as part of its makeup that due to their lower fermentability, retain body in the final beer.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Beers Gone Wild]

Ta Lusty. I did Wonder why. Crystal malt may be why I do prefer the amber flavour too. I only changed to amber a few months ago and use it 90% of the time now.

[Beerlust]

On 4/2/2019 at 8:46 PM, Worthog said:

Anyone struggling for head retention should ultimately set their sights on All Grain brewing as their goal. I'm into my second year;

Cheers

 

It's a nice pic Worthog, but I disagree about the need to move to AG to solve the problem.

That is the lacing left by a kit based APA that has been in the keg one, yes ONE week. So it's still pretty green. (tastes pretty good though!)

The only grain addition above the kit & extract was 200gms of Supernova malt steeped.

Despite my partial/extract brewing prowess, the best beer still to this day that I have brewed that exhibited the best lacing & bead was the original Coopers DIY Celebration Ale recipe.

Just superb. 

Body & the retention of it can be achieved at any level of brewing.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Worthog]

10 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

It's a nice pic Worthog, but I disagree about the need to move to AG to solve the problem.

That is the lacing left by a kit based APA that has been in the keg one, yes ONE week. So it's still pretty green. (tastes pretty good though!)

The only grain addition above the kit & extract was 200gms of Supernova malt steeped.

Despite my partial/extract brewing prowess, the best beer still to this day that I have brewed that exhibited the best lacing & bead was the original Coopers DIY Celebration Ale recipe.

Just superb. 

Body & the retention of it can be achieved at any level of brewing.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Yeah, I agree.... Just tonight I pulled out an English Bitter I made from a left over Real Ale kit and old malt extract, plus a hop Bill.

In fact, I think my lacing beat your lacing.

Cheers

[Beerlust]

8 minutes ago, Worthog said:

...In fact, I think my lacing beat your lacing.

Is the beer a week old?

[Worthog]

2 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Is the beer a week old?

No, it is months old. But regarding AG, unlike extract brewing it has proven impossible to fail.

Your 1 week old APA is indeed impressive though.

Cheers

[Beerlust]

7 minutes ago, Worthog said:

...But regarding AG, unlike extract brewing it has proven impossible to fail.

Your knowledge has grown through that period too Worthog.

Don't sell yourself short on that. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Worthog]

2 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Your knowledge has grown through that period too Worthog.

Don't sell yourself short on that. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

You got me started with advice to steep Cara with my extracts, Lusty. Great advice from which I advanced over time.

Cheers and thanks.

[The Captain!!]

I agree with Lusty on this one, I don't believe that extract brewers are missing out on head retention at all.

Get your protein levels up with wheat, hops, oats among other thing and your singing.

[ChristinaS1]

1 hour ago, The Captain!! said:

I agree with Lusty on this one, I don't believe that extract brewers are missing out on head retention at all.

Get your protein levels up with wheat, hops, oats among other thing and your singing.

 

Agree about getting protein levels up, with wheat or other malt, but is is protein in hops that aids head? I thought it was their oils? 

Regarding oats, I thought that while they add a creamy mouthfeel, they are actually foam negative, due to their oil content. At least that is what this article suggests. https://byo.com/article/fabulous-foam/ 

The article also says that processing may reduce foam positive characteristics, especially if you dilute them with non-protein adjuncts. But it is complicated. My MIL brews Coopers Blonde with nothing but dextrose, a little less than a kilo, but then bulk primes with high amounts of dextrose. She does not steep crystal malts or use hops. Many of her brews have very impressive and long lasting head, which I have never understood. She often ages them for months in her cold cellar, since she does not like to run out.  Long story short, there are many factors.

Cheers,

Christina.

[The Captain!!]

3 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Long story short, there are many factors.

Absolutely there are and I don’t think one solution.

As far as oats is concerned, I was under the impression that oats were foam positive.

Hops, I was listening to a hop podcast from Yakima hops a while back and they say that hop proteins are foam positive. 

 

[The Captain!!]

After 45 mins. Still standing. 

[The Captain!!]

On 4/6/2019 at 7:30 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

 

Agree about getting protein levels up, with wheat or other malt, but is is protein in hops that aids head? I thought it was their oils? 

Hey Christina, 

I had another listen to that podcast again and it’s the matter in the hops that react with the protein in the wort to stabilise foam. 

Hop oil is foam negative as all oils are. 

There are tetra hop extracts which were originally produced for foam stabilisers.

[ChristinaS1]

8 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

Hey Christina, 

I had another listen to that podcast again and it’s the matter in the hops that react with the protein in the wort to stabilise foam. 

Hop oil is foam negative as all oils are. 

There are tetra hop extracts which were originally produced for foam stabilisers.

Thanks Captain. I appreciate the update. That is an interesting nuance. 

Do you have a link to that podcast? I would like to listen to it.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Do you have a link to that podcast?

It sounds like part of this one:  Hops and Beer Bitterness with Dr Charlie Bamforth – BeerSmith Podcast #58

[The Captain!!]

Hop and brew school from YCH episode 5 I think

@ChristinaS1

[Beerlust]

On 4/6/2019 at 10:00 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

Agree about getting protein levels up, with wheat or other malt, but is is protein in hops that aids head? I thought it was their oils? 

Regarding oats, I thought that while they add a creamy mouthfeel, they are actually foam negative, due to their oil content. At least that is what this article suggests. https://byo.com/article/fabulous-foam/ 

The article also says that processing may reduce foam positive characteristics, especially if you dilute them with non-protein adjuncts. But it is complicated.

I've read that article a few times as a reference over the years. It's one of the best articles I've seen published on the subject for brewers.

Regarding hops in this discussion, they are more involved in the retention of beer head than the development of it. The process of boiling hops to convert alpha acids to iso-alpha acids is what helps assists with beer head retention once a head is formed. It's mentioned in the article.

Oats do give a creamy mouthfeel to beers but sometimes at a cost for their oil content. If you look at a lot of good (particularly English) beers that use oats, they often also use unmalted wheat &/or unmalted barley in the same grist. As part of a cereal mash these are the foam-positive components of the grist that will correct any negatives caused by the oats.

On 4/6/2019 at 10:00 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

...My MIL brews Coopers Blonde with nothing but dextrose, a little less than a kilo, but then bulk primes with high amounts of dextrose. She does not steep crystal malts or use hops. Many of her brews have very impressive and long lasting head, which I have never understood. She often ages them for months in her cold cellar, since she does not like to run out. 

The ageing process in cold storage has likely helped some. The kit & its configuration likely has a lot to do with this & it's fairly well bittered also.

Anyone struggling with head development/head retention problems, the article Christina linked to is a MUST read. 

For those like Otto man though that are into fish guts solutions etc. <insert Muttley laugh > you can always go down the marine brown algae chemical route to solve these problems just like a number of the large scale commercial breweries likely do.

At the end of the day, it's about balances & getting them right. As the article says...

Quote

...Beer is a biochemically complex beverage. Within it are compounds that promote beer foam formation and stability and others that detract. Beer foam chemistry and physics can be disturbingly complex, so keep the following in mind. If the promoters win, you have foam. If the detractors win, you have flat beer.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[ChristinaS1]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

Oats do give a creamy mouthfeel to beers but sometimes at a cost for their oil content. If you look at a lot of good (particularly English) beers that use oats, they often also use unmalted wheat &/or unmalted barley in the same grist. As part of a cereal mash these are the foam-positive components of the grist that will correct any negatives caused by the oats.

I had not noticed they often use unmalted wheat or barley as well, but you are right. Good point. I will remember that. Thanks for the tip.