1 or 2 packs of yeast for proper lager

[Aussiekraut]

I know this is a little contentious and wars have probably been fought over this topic but the question still remains  

When making lagers, should one use one pack of yeast or two? I tend to use two when using W34/70 but have used a single pack of NovaLager with no adverse results or at least none I can taste. My main issue is that at $9.50 each, we're looking at $19 per batch just for the yeast. That's more than the grain in most cases.

What's the upshot here? One or two? I know some even use 3 packs, which is a little excessive IMHO, but I also know of people who are happy to just use one pack per batch. 

[ChairmanDrew]

My last several brews have been Cooper's Euro lager. I've just been using the single 7g packet, except for one where I used 1 and a 1/2, because I accidentally spilled half a pack. All have turned out fine as far as I can tell. My current one took a little while to get going, probably because of the cold snap, but is now happily bubbling away.

 

As you say, yeast is not cheap, and part of my reason to homebrew is to keep the cost down.

[Cheap Charlie]

1 hour ago, Aussiekraut said:

My main issue is that at $9.50 each

Totally agree with you there, these yeast prices are outrageous! The only thing I can suggest is culturing your yeast - a little more effort, but something I am considering doing. Currently I have been dirty batching to get value, but am considering using the OVB method.

IMO, the higher the prices for premium yeast, the more it encourages brewers to culture their own, so therefore less sales for the yeast providers. They will have to keep an eye on the price hikes and the effect it has on their bottom line. Same goes for hops.

At the end of the day, there are a lot of factors affecting price, just my opinion.

[Cheap Charlie]

1 hour ago, Aussiekraut said:

but the question still remains  

sorry mate, didn't answer the question

[Aussiekraut]

1 hour ago, Cheap Charlie said:

Totally agree with you there, these yeast prices are outrageous! The only thing I can suggest is culturing your yeast - a little more effort, but something I am considering doing. Currently I have been dirty batching to get value, but am considering using the OVB method.

Yeah, I have been wondering if making a decent-sized starter with just one pack and then keeping some aside might be helpful. I have a little room in the old bar fridge to store some jars. 

[Pale Man]

3 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I know this is a little contentious and wars have probably been fought over this topic but the question still remains  

When making lagers, should one use one pack of yeast or two? I tend to use two when using W34/70 but have used a single pack of NovaLager with no adverse results or at least none I can taste. My main issue is that at $9.50 each, we're looking at $19 per batch just for the yeast. That's more than the grain in most cases.

What's the upshot here? One or two? I know some even use 3 packs, which is a little excessive IMHO, but I also know of people who are happy to just use one pack per batch. 

Otto will say to propagate. And if you know what you're doing, probably the path to go down. I don't often brew Lagers but in the past my Pilsners have been cracking with two packs of Lallemand Diamond. Yep, its not cheap. But its the only way I'd do it.

Ive brewed before with one packet and my lagers had an awful butterscotch flavour.  For the sake of an extra 10 bucks for a beautiful Lager I'd definitely use two. Just me.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Pale Man

[Classic Brewing Co]

24 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

Otto will say to propagate. And if you know what you're doing, probably the path to go down. I don't often brew Lagers but in the past my Pilsners have been cracking with two packs of Lallemand Diamond. Yep, its not cheap. But its the only way I'd do it.

Ive brewed before with one packet and my lagers had an awful butterscotch flavour.  For the sake of an extra 10 bucks for a beautiful Lager I'd definitely use two. Just me.

Yeah, I reckon if you are going to up the fermentables, it definitely pays to go two packets, I use 1tsp of yeast nutrient as well, really gets things going.

I have never had any 'yeasty' tastes.

[Hoppy81]

Definitely don't underpitch, this was the biggest yeast pitch I just did but had to use some yeast up that was reaching the BB date, was a 100L brew.

[Pale Man]

8 minutes ago, Hoppy81 said:

Definitely don't underpitch, this was the biggest yeast pitch I just did but had to use some yeast up that was reaching the BB date, was a 100L brew.

Wise advice from the Sensei of brewing.

[Cheap Charlie]

3 hours ago, Hoppy81 said:

Definitely don't underpitch, this was the biggest yeast pitch I just did but had to use some yeast up that was reaching the BB date, was a 100L brew.

Holy shizen!! That would blow novalager out of the water!!!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Two packs or make a starter from one pack is what I'd be doing. Part of the reason why I started overbuilding starters and harvesting from them was cost. The price of dry malt to make the starters is a lot less than yeast. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I know this is a little contentious and wars have probably been fought over this topic but the question still remains  

When making lagers, should one use one pack of yeast or two? I tend to use two when using W34/70 but have used a single pack of NovaLager with no adverse results or at least none I can taste. My main issue is that at $9.50 each, we're looking at $19 per batch just for the yeast. That's more than the grain in most cases.

What's the upshot here? One or two? I know some even use 3 packs, which is a little excessive IMHO, but I also know of people who are happy to just use one pack per batch. 

I am an advocate for 2 packets.  Although I make overbuild starters (harvest some of the starter for the next brew and pitch the rest), I follow the recommendations of the Brewfather software.  The volumes it calculates are at least equivalent to 2 packets.

Having said that, many of my early brews were done with 1 packet of lager yeast, because that is what the recipe said to use.  Those brews seemed fine to me. 

NovaLager is a bit of a new beastie.  I have not used it yet.  I think its pitch rate is the same as an ale rather than a traditional lager.

[Hoppy81]

8 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

NovaLager is a bit of a new beastie.  I have not used it yet.  I think its pitch rate is the same as an ale rather than a traditional lager.

It's a great yeast. I use to always use Diamond but since Nova has been released, it's all i use now...apart from this time, had heaps of Diamond to be used. 
I've noticed not difference using it.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Ive always said. You have to buy malt and hops every brew but you dont have to buy yeast. Invest in an erlenmeyer 5lt flask and you will pay it back in about 4 lager brews making starters. All you need is some dry malt and the original packet of yeast and a jar. You can use the one packet for ages

[Malter White]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:10 AM, ChairmanDrew said:

My last several brews have been Cooper's Euro lager. I've just been using the single 7g packet, except for one where I used 1 and a 1/2, because I accidentally spilled half a pack. All have turned out fine as far as I can tell. My current one took a little while to get going, probably because of the cold snap, but is now happily bubbling away.

If you're using the yeast that came with the tin, the reason it took time to get going is because it's no longer lager yeast (that ferments at lower temps). Coopers now include an ale yeast with the Euro Lager...which effectively makes it European Ale.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Malter White

[ChairmanDrew]

1 hour ago, Malter White said:

If you're using the yeast that came with the tin, the reason it took time to get going is because it's no longer lager yeast (that ferments at lower temps). Coopers now include an ale yeast with the Euro Lager...which effectively makes it European Ale.

Mine were old ones which still had the lager yeast. I got them cheap on clearance. End of an era.

Edited September 9, 2023 by ChairmanDrew

[ChairmanDrew]

Question re: lager yeast. Is fermentation likely to stall if temps are too high? My lager has been sitting at a final gravity of 1.012 for days now, which is a bit higher than I would have expected. The weather has been warming up lately, meaning it has been hovering a few degrees higher than preferable for lager. But I have also used a different yeast this time (Mangrove jacks Bavarian lager yeast, as opposed to the old coopers lager yeast), so is that the reason for the difference to expectation?

[Classic Brewing Co]

51 minutes ago, ChairmanDrew said:

Question re: lager yeast. Is fermentation likely to stall if temps are too high? My lager has been sitting at a final gravity of 1.012 for days now, which is a bit higher than I would have expected. The weather has been warming up lately, meaning it has been hovering a few degrees higher than preferable for lager. But I have also used a different yeast this time (Mangrove jacks Bavarian lager yeast, as opposed to the old coopers lager yeast), so is that the reason for the difference to expectation?

This could help, I don't do Lagers & I wondered myself.

https://abbeybrewinginc.com/3-ways-to-prevent-a-stalled-lager-fermentation/

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

2 hours ago, ChairmanDrew said:

Question re: lager yeast. Is fermentation likely to stall if temps are too high? My lager has been sitting at a final gravity of 1.012 for days now, which is a bit higher than I would have expected. The weather has been warming up lately, meaning it has been hovering a few degrees higher than preferable for lager. But I have also used a different yeast this time (Mangrove jacks Bavarian lager yeast, as opposed to the old coopers lager yeast), so is that the reason for the difference to expectation?

Because it's a kit beer and been stable it would be done. Only my FWK Lagers have finished lower.

[Kegory]

2 hours ago, ChairmanDrew said:

Question re: lager yeast. Is fermentation likely to stall if temps are too high? My lager has been sitting at a final gravity of 1.012 for days now, which is a bit higher than I would have expected. The weather has been warming up lately, meaning it has been hovering a few degrees higher than preferable for lager. But I have also used a different yeast this time (Mangrove jacks Bavarian lager yeast, as opposed to the old coopers lager yeast), so is that the reason for the difference to expectation?

Many people raise the temperature of a lager towards the end of fermentation to help the yeast get rid of the diacetyl and other off flavours. Different yeasts, including different lager yeasts have different ranges of temperatures that they like. What is the temperature of your fermenter and what is the temperature range of the yeast?

[ChairmanDrew]

4 minutes ago, Kegory said:

Many people raise the temperature of a lager towards the end of fermentation to help the yeast get rid of the diacetyl and other off flavours. Different yeasts, including different lager yeasts have different ranges of temperatures that they like. What is the temperature of your fermenter and what is the temperature range of the yeast?

Yeast temperature range: For best results ferment at 8-14 degrees C

I've only got the sticker thermometer thing on the side of the fermentor, but looks to be somewhere between 14-16 C.

 

It quite likely is done. It's now been well over a week. I'm just surprised, because the previous time I did this same brew it came in with a slightly higher OG, but a lower FG. The only difference has been the yeast (and the ambient temperature, it's now getting into Spring).

[Kegory]

6 minutes ago, ChairmanDrew said:

Yeast temperature range: For best results ferment at 8-14 degrees C

I've only got the sticker thermometer thing on the side of the fermentor, but looks to be somewhere between 14-16 C.

 

It quite likely is done. It's now been well over a week. I'm just surprised, because the previous time I did this same brew it came in with a slightly higher OG, but a lower FG. The only difference has been the yeast (and the ambient temperature, it's now getting into Spring).

Yeah, sounds like it's finished fermenting.

The other thing to keep in mind is that yeasts also come with an attenuation range. They may not do exactly the same thing every time even in the same conditions. If the range is say 78% to 84% that will result in a range of possible FG's. 

[ChairmanDrew]

6 minutes ago, Kegory said:

Yeah, sounds like it's finished fermenting.

The other thing to keep in mind is that yeasts also come with an attenuation range. They may not do exactly the same thing every time even in the same conditions. If the range is say 78% to 84% that will result in a range of possible FG's. 

Attenuation: High

Flocculation: Medium

https://mangrovejacks.com/products/bavarian-lager-m76-yeast-10g

This is versus the original Coopers lager yeast. Maybe it made quite a difference. Will be interesting to see how it tastes in the end.

[Triple B Brewing]

2 hours ago, ChairmanDrew said:

Attenuation: High

Flocculation: Medium

https://mangrovejacks.com/products/bavarian-lager-m76-yeast-10g

This is versus the original Coopers lager yeast. Maybe it made quite a difference. Will be interesting to see how it tastes in the end.

Hey @ChairmanDrew, hoping this BYO article Hitting Your Target Final Gravity provides you with some insight.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

It'll be fine. I routinely let mine free rise up to 18 degrees in the last third or so of fermentation for a diacetyl rest. I make starters in the middle of summer at room temperature with them as well. 

The temperature ranges are there because that's what will give the best flavour. It doesn't mean the yeast can't ferment or dies at higher temperatures than that. You could ferment lager yeast at 30 degrees if you wanted to, but the outcome would be pretty awful I'd imagine.