Sourdough

[iBooz2]

A second crack at trying to make something edible out of my sourdough starter version 2. 

This time a stone ground rustic white long loaf of bread in order to make some garlic bread.  Used the bread maker on dough setting again and it was much better, only had to put it through the cycle once as per normal yeast fired bread dough.  I did use about 200 ml of starter this time (large loaf) as it was only going to be tipped down the sink anyway (the discard most process of sourdough starters).

Placed the freshly made dough on some backing paper and on oven tray then shaped it leaving to prove overnight in a warm spot.  It started out like a long skinny loaf and proved up quite nicely but I think I left it too long as it started to drop and then flatten out.  Anyway it was still a nice loaf when baked and later plastered with garlic butter, Parmesan cheese and some herbs and the slices were slipped under the grill.

Got me wondering though, is sourdough proofing as strong and as stable as normal yeast fired bread or do I need to bake it as soon as it hits peak rise?

Also has anyone tried a combination of sourdough and normal bread yeast to give it some muscles and help hold its form for baking?

I have a sort of recipe (when I say sort of it’s a description of a loaf we both really like but it has no quantities only a summary of its contents) this loaf says it contains both stone ground wheat and rye and also wheat malt extract (which I can mash and make but how much per loaf?).  This loaf we like has the hint of sourdough flavour but is somewhere between a normal loaf and a full sourdough bread and makes superb sandwiches (toasted or otherwise).   That’s the reason I am asking if anyone has tried a hybrid mix of sourdough and normal bread yeasts.

[kmar92]

Please do not take advice from me on this subject - I am still trying to get the starter ready and I have no experience as yet on proofing, baking etc of sourdough. However, when I am happy with the starter, I intend to proof the sourdough in a Banneton basket and then bake it in a Dutch oven. From what I have seen the Banneton helps to retain the form of the loaf whilst proofing and I already know, from experience with other breads, that Dutch ovens are great for bread baking as they retain the steam generated from the dough which gives a great crust and bake of the loaf.

[iBooz2]

I hear what you are saying kmar92.  I have baked thousands of loaves at home just never a sourdough one hence the new techniques to be learned.  Maybe sourdough yeasts do need some help in that basket arrangement as it collapses too quickly.

Yes those methods work in conserving moisture but in the past I have only sprayed my proved bread or rolls dough with water just before slipping into the oven or Webber Q.  I have also (sometimes) put a large bowl of hot water in the oven with the dough to replicate a more humid environment but find a simple mist spray of water over the top makes for a very crusty loaf.

I am just trying to fathom if the sourdough yeast has the muscle to hold the bread up as long as normal yeast or do a I need to monitor it and time the "into the oven" part just right or yet again slip in a bit of normal bread makers yeast to help keep it pumped up.

My new starter version 2 is going gangbusters btw.  If i fed it 3 times a day it would be more than happy and its since being trying to climb out of my jars and chew my bloody arm off.

[stquinto]

22 hours ago, kmar92 said:

Sourdough starter #2 is going well, thanks to you guys for the tips. After the jar failure I have started again and I have used a combo of rye and white organic flour. As with the 1st it went gangbusters to begin with, then it calmed down. So I have been using the same mix of rye and white and that has made a difference, I also think that I will start feeding it twice daily from now on. I noticed yesterday that it had a good rise after feeding the night before, but that then subsided. After the subsidence it also had a vinegary smell and I have read that indicates that it is hungry. So after a feed tonight it has risen maybe 50% in 3 hours, I will feed it again in the morning.

That looks promising mate. Once it's got going you won't need to feed it twice a day. If it is hungry it should give off some dark liquid on the top (called hooch). My own one (actually three of them) is about 18 months old now so is fairly sour. The other thing to enhance the sourness is to leave the loaf in the fridge for several hours after the second rise, you can even leave it overnight.

This is a good recipe for leftover starter, rather than chucking it :

https://littlespoonfarm.com/sourdough-discard-crackers/

You can make all sorts of flavours, just watch you don't eat too many of them in one sitting, you get sore guts...

 

[kmar92]

@iBooz2 yes a new world for me is sourdough. That collapsing of the proved loaf is what has me planning on the Banneton for proofing. I am also finding the starter a little temperamental, last night the bloody thing threatened to escape the jar, as with yours, whilst tonight it is growing very slowly but it is growing and will probably wait till I am asleep and then explode out of the jar!

[kmar92]

Thanks @stquinto, I had some hooch early with my starter, but for the last few days it just seems to want to climb out of the jar so I am taking that as a good sign that it has a healthy culture of yeasty goodies within.

[iBooz2]

6 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

@iBooz2 yes a new world for me is sourdough. That collapsing of the proved loaf is what has me planning on the Banneton for proofing. I am also finding the starter a little temperamental, last night the bloody thing threatened to escape the jar, as with yours, whilst tonight it is growing very slowly but it is growing and will probably wait till I am asleep and then explode out of the jar!

Just watch out it does not get outta that jar into bed with you and then steal all the doona because then you will know you have created a monster.  

[stquinto]

16 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

I hear what you are saying kmar92.  I have baked thousands of loaves at home just never a sourdough one hence the new techniques to be learned.  Maybe sourdough yeasts do need some help in that basket arrangement as it collapses too quickly.

Yes those methods work in conserving moisture but in the past I have only sprayed my proved bread or rolls dough with water just before slipping into the oven or Webber Q.  I have also (sometimes) put a large bowl of hot water in the oven with the dough to replicate a more humid environment but find a simple mist spray of water over the top makes for a very crusty loaf.

I am just trying to fathom if the sourdough yeast has the muscle to hold the bread up as long as normal yeast or do a I need to monitor it and time the "into the oven" part just right or yet again slip in a bit of normal bread makers yeast to help keep it pumped up.

My new starter version 2 is going gangbusters btw.  If i fed it 3 times a day it would be more than happy and its since being trying to climb out of my jars and chew my bloody arm off.

 yeah, they can go a bit "alien" on you...

I've never tried a hybrid version TBH. I have only made loaves, either 300, 500g, 750g or 1kg, and I just made some hot cross buns the other day. And pizza dough. I have two banneton sizes and two Dutch oven sizes too. If the loaf over-proofs it can collapse on itself and it won't really work. If your timing is messed up because you have to go to work etc. you can put the loaf in the fridge and it will slow/stop the proofing. I do this quite a lot: if I start the first proof at around 7 or 8PM it would finish proofing at somethin like 4AM. I'll be b*ggered if I'm going to get up for a loaf of bread, so I would interrupt the proofing when I go to bed, by putting it in the fridge. Then when I get up I take it out of the fridge and carry on with the proof. 

I have seen reciped that use free-form loaves, I tried it once, but they went a bit flat on me. Sourdough pitta bread almost... 

The hot-cross buns (hot line buns)  look a bit iffy but taste nice

https://littlespoonfarm.com/sourdough-hot-cross-buns-recipe/

Let's face it, she has better looking buns than me...

 

[kmar92]

@stquinto I have a Lodge double dutch oven and I was thinking about proofing the dough in a Banneton and then turning it out onto the lid of the Lodge (all pre-heated of course) and placing that into the oven with the deeper base on top, so in other words upside down. My thinking is that method would be less likely to deflate the dough, I think that if I use the double Dutch oven in the usual upright manner I would have to turn out the Banneton onto some baking paper in order to put it in the Dutch oven.

[stquinto]

2 hours ago, kmar92 said:

@stquinto I have a Lodge double dutch oven and I was thinking about proofing the dough in a Banneton and then turning it out onto the lid of the Lodge (all pre-heated of course) and placing that into the oven with the deeper base on top, so in other words upside down. My thinking is that method would be less likely to deflate the dough, I think that if I use the double Dutch oven in the usual upright manner I would have to turn out the Banneton onto some baking paper in order to put it in the Dutch oven.

This is what I do mate:

• put the dough in the banneton for the second proofing/rise. Make sure there's enough rice flour on the inside of the banneton so it doesn't stick (I posted a picture of what happens if you don't ...)
• do the second proof with the shower cap on the banneton, like the first proof
• when you are ready to bake, put the Dutch over and its lid in an oven and heat to 260°C
• put some baking paper over the top of the banneton, then flip it over. It won't stick if you've put the rice flour in
• make your cut (a razor blade knife is best) so the loaf doesn't split any old how
• take the Dutch oven out of the oven and life the loaf by the paper and place it in the Dutch oven with the lid on. Some people spray some water on for it to brown more and for the crust to be crispier but I don't seem to need to
• lower the heat to 230° and cook for 20 minutes (with the lid on)
• take the lid off and cook for a further 25 minutes
• take the loaf out and either crisp it for a further 5 minutes back in the oven (out of the Dutch oven) if necessary
• make sure you cool it for a cuppla hours before cutting it, or else it will go gooey on you

Here's some pics, of the banneton after the second rise, on the paper after it has been turned over, and in  the Dutch over after cooking (that was a different loaf, as you can see from the cuts and there nothaving any banneton lines):

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by stquinto

[Tricky Micky]

10 hours ago, stquinto said:

This is what I do mate:

• put the dough in the banneton for the second proofing/rise. Make sure there's enough rice flour on the inside of the banneton so it doesn't stick (I posted a picture of what happens if you don't ...)
• do the second proof with the shower cap on the banneton, like the first proof
• when you are ready to bake, put the Dutch over and its lid in an oven and heat to 260°C
• put some baking paper over the top of the banneton, then flip it over. It won't stick if you've put the rice flour in
• make your cut (a razor blade knife is best) so the loaf doesn't split any old how
• take the Dutch oven out of the oven and life the loaf by the paper and place it in the Dutch oven with the lid on. Some people spray some water on for it to brown more and for the crust to be crispier but I don't seem to need to
• lower the heat to 230° and cook for 20 minutes (with the lid on)
• take the lid off and cook for a further 25 minutes
• take the loaf out and either crisp it for a further 5 minutes back in the oven (out of the Dutch oven) if necessary
• make sure you cool it for a cuppla hours before cutting it, or else it will go gooey on you

Here's some pics, of the banneton after the second rise, on the paper after it has been turned over, and in  the Dutch over after cooking (that was a different loaf, as you can see from the cuts and there nothaving any banneton lines):

 

 

WOW!

[Popo the Reprobate]

13 hours ago, stquinto said:

This is what I do mate

Almost exactly my process too.

[Pezzza]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:29 PM, stquinto said:

put the Dutch over and its lid in an oven and heat to 260°C

Sainter do you use fan-forced when you have the oven on?

[iBooz2]

Baked a sourdough rye loaf on Friday, well it was a hybrid loaf as I wanted to try out my recipe using sourdough starter and using my bread machine rather than do the work with my bannerton basket etc.

This loaf turned out beautifully.  Used sourdough starter for that sourdough flavour and ½ teaspoon of normal bread makers yeast to give the dough some strength so it would not flop.  The bread machine tub helps keep the dough's shape during the longer proofing time and the machine has a French setting which was used to give it a longer baking time.  It turned out a bit gnarly on the top because I was a bit short on my water estimate but we loved the crusty bits.  All up a win win and it got 4 /5 stars from my wife too.

We had some of it toasted and smothered in scrambled eggs and topped with bacon for brunch on Saturday and loved it.  Toasted and topped with fresh ham off the bone for breaky this morning.

Next try at my hybrid recipe will be using ½ rye and ½ stone-ground white flours and again using ½ teaspoon of normal bread makers yeast and see how that mix turns out.
 

Edited October 10, 2021 by iBooz2

[Classic Brewing Co]

44 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Baked a sourdough rye loaf on Friday, well it was a hybrid loaf as I wanted to try out my recipe using sourdough starter and using my bread machine rather than do the work with my bannerton basket etc.

This loaf turned out beautifully.  Used sourdough starter for that sourdough flavour and ½ teaspoon of normal bread makers yeast to give the dough some strength so it would not flop.  The bread machine tub helps keep the dough's shape during the longer proofing time and the machine has a French setting which was used to give it a longer baking time.  It turned out a bit gnarly on the top because I was a bit short on my water estimate but we loved the crusty bits.  All up a win win and it got 4 /5 stars from my wife too.

We had some of it toasted and smothered in scrambled eggs and topped with bacon for brunch on Saturday and loved it.  Toasted and topped with fresh ham off the bone for breaky this morning.

Next try at my hybrid recipe will be using ½ rye and ½ stone-ground white flours and again using ½ teaspoon of normal bread makers yeast and see how that mix turns out.
 

Hey Al, good to see you getting results with the Sourdough Starter, I am yet to embark on that journey although over the years I have made a lot of bread but ended up with a Sunbeam Bakehouse Bread Maker & I particularly like French setting as you mentioned as all of the Crusty Whites, Grain Bread etc always are to die for not to mention filling up the house with the smell of home baked bread.

I will get into a starter soon & see if I can catch up with some of you patissiers. 

[Pezzza]

I feel like a bit of an imposter as is dry yeast not sourdough - but the baking methodology dutch oven approach is v similar ; )

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 minute ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

I feel like a bit of an imposter as is dry yeast not sourdough - but the baking methodology dutch oven approach is v similar ; )

 

Fine looking loaf Gra... - I mean @Itinerant Peasant I can imaging some EV Olive Oil, Vintage Cheese, Olives etc .... Yum.

[Pezzza]

10 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Fine looking loaf Gra... - I mean @Itinerant Peasant I can imaging some EV Olive Oil, Vintage Cheese, Olives etc .... Yum.

... Leberwurst ...Salami ....  Prosciutto all of that etc

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 minute ago, Itinerant Peasant said:

... Leberwurst ...Salami ....  Prosciutto all of that etc

Oh yes all of that as well & a 

[iBooz2]

4 hours ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I will get into a starter soon & see if I can catch up with some of you patissiers. 

When it comes to sourdough Phil I am nothing but a L-Platissier so you don't have much catching up to do in order to get to my lowish level.  Suggest you have a crack at this sourdough stuff and see what you can come up with.

Next hybrid loaf I will try and remember to take a pic.

Edited October 10, 2021 by iBooz2

[ben 10]

On 10/10/2021 at 5:10 PM, Itinerant Peasant said:

I feel like a bit of an imposter

You are.

[ben 10]

This is the bestest one for noooooobs

 

100 grams prepared starter (such as King Arthur Classic Fresh Sourdough Starter, $8.95) 
200 grams (about 1 1/4 cups, plus 2 tablespoons) unbleached all-purpose flour
100 grams (about 2/3 cup) whole wheat flour
6 grams (about 1 teaspoon) fine sea salt
230 grams (about 1 cup, plus 1 tablespoon) 65F-70F water
Wheat bran, for dusting

1. In a large bowl, combine the white flour, wheat flour, and salt and whisk to combine. In a small bowl, whisk the starter and water until the starter is fully dissolved. Pour the starter mixture into the flour, and use a flexible spatula to quickly mix. Cover the bowl loosely with a clean kitchen towel, and let the dough sit at room temperature for 30 minutes.  

 

2. Turn the dough, pulling it off the sides of the bowl and folding into the center as you turn; work it as little as possible. Cover loosely and let rest for 30 minutes before turning the dough again. After approximately 5 turns, or 2 ½ to 3 hours, the dough should be ready. (Don’t expect to see a big increase in size in this dough—by turning the dough every half-hour, you are doing what I call the lazy man’s version of kneading the dough—improving the texture without much effort.) 

Note: How do you tell when it’s ready? You want it to get to the point where it is capable of holding a shape, and not ooze into a pancake when you shape it into a ball.  It should be so interested in sticking to itself that it easily peels off the bowl when ready to shape.   

3. Place a large piece of parchment paper on a sheet pan and cover with wheat bran, so that you can no longer see the paper. Transfer the dough to a lightly floured surface and form it loosely into a ball: hold it with both hands and gently tug the sides down and under, into the middle of the dough, to make a taut ball; don’t let the dough tear. Set the dough seam side down on the bran-coated paper. Dust the top of the dough lightly with more bran. Cover loosely with the towel and let it sit at room temperature until doubled in size, about 2 hours.

 

4. Preheat the oven to 500F (450F if your oven runs hot). Preheat a cast-iron ovenproof pot with tight-fitting lid, such as Le Creuset, in the oven. Carefully remove the lid and transfer the dough on the parchment into the pot. Use a serrated knife to score the loaf with a long slash, to allow the dough to expand. Cover the pot immediately and place the pot in the oven.

 

5. Bake the bread for 35 to 40 minutes with the lid on.  Carefully remove the lid and tear off any excess parchment. Bake for another 10 to 15 minutes with the lid off, until the crust is a very, very dark brown.  (I urge you to let the bread cook, uncovered, until the top of the bread nearly blackens and the sides reach a very, very, very dark brown.) Remove the loaf from the pot. Cool the loaf on a wire rack. The loaf will continue to cook as it cools, so try to wait an hour or so before cutting into it.

 

 

[stquinto]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:46 AM, Itinerant Peasant said:

Sainter do you use fan-forced when you have the oven on?

@Itinerant Peasant hey IP mate, no, normal oven. But I heat to 260° to heat the Dutch oven, then cook at 230°. I think the initial heat to 260° is to compensate for the fact that it will cool down when you open the door to put the bread in, so it ends up being 230° for the length of time you are baking the bread.

[stquinto]

Here's a "photo essay" of my bread journey

This starts at the point where you have mixed your loaf, done a few "hand folds", done one 8 to 10 hour rise, a fold and shape into a round shape, then into the banneton for a second rise (in the fridge) for about 3 to 6 hours.

Time line so far : 

1. mix loaf > 0 minutes

2. first hand fold > 60 minutes

3. second hand fold > 60 + 30 = 90 minutes

4. third hand fold > 60 + 30 + 30 = 120 minutes

5. fourth hand fold > 60 + 30 + 30 + 30 = 150 minutes

6. overnight proof (rise) in metal bowl with shower cap on > 150 minutes + 8 hours = 10.5 hours

7. tip out of bowl onto floured surface (normal flour), three or four hand folds, flip the loaf and shape it into a ball, and put seam-side up into floured (rice flour) banneton, replace shower cap, and put in the fridge > 10.5 + 3 hours = 13.5 hours

This is where the photos start:

The loaf comes out from the fridge and you put the Dutch oven and preheat to 260° (not fan assisted) 

 

After that you put a sheet of oven paper over the top of the banneto, and turn it over. The loaf should fall onto the paper (if it sticks you didn't put enough rice flour on it...)

 

 

Then cut it with your jail-house shank

Take the preheated Dutch oven out of  the oven, and lift the paper in

Turn to oven down to 230°, and cook it for 20 minutes with the lid on

Then another 25 without the lid

 

Then cool it down on a wire rack for at least an hour (still can turn out a bit gooey when you cut it, 2 - 3 hours is better)

 

There are many ways to skin a cat of course, but this system works for me.

I'll post some pictures of the beginning of a loaf next time I bake one.

I would also recommend only using white bread flour until you've got the hang of it (with the loaf spring etc.) because whole meal bread can be a b*gger to get right straight away.

Happy baking

 

[iBooz2]

A very good photo tutorial for all us sourdough noobs thanks @stquinto ,  you have done well once again.  A big  from me.