Recommendations of what to clean the FV etc with.

[NBillett09]

Was just having a beer in the kitchen and thinking, to avoid the contentious issue of dishwashing liquid on one’s brewing gear, what if you put your bottles/FV/whatever in the dishwasher and ran a hot cycle but without any soap at all, or even if you put a scoop of PBW in the soap holder? 
 

Not a serious question or suggestion, just thinking out loud!

[Classic Brewing Co]

27 minutes ago, NBillett09 said:

Was just having a beer in the kitchen and thinking, to avoid the contentious issue of dishwashing liquid on one’s brewing gear, what if you put your bottles/FV/whatever in the dishwasher and ran a hot cycle but without any soap at all, or even if you put a scoop of PBW in the soap holder? 
 

Not a serious question or suggestion, just thinking out loud!

This has been hammered too many times & I personally have a strict regime that works for me & it has always delivered a nice beer with excellent head retention however there are those that disagree & come up with all sorts of other practices that include cheaper... products like bleach/detergent/dishwashers.

At this stage I am reluctant to comment any further, but I will say my cleaning of brew equipment does not include kitchen & laundry products.

There are lots of products especially designed to look after your brew gear, if you want my routine, send me a PM.

Cheers.

 

[Classic Brewing Co]

6 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

This has been hammered too many times & I personally have a strict regime that works for me & it has always delivered a nice beer with excellent head retention however there are those that disagree & come up with all sorts of other practices that include cheaper... products like bleach/detergent/dishwashers.

At this stage I am reluctant to comment any further, but I will say my cleaning of brew equipment does not include kitchen & laundry products.

There are lots of products especially designed to look after your brew gear, if you want my routine, send me a PM.

Cheers.

 

Her's a shot of my AG IPA glass with lacing & it has been sitting on the bar for 20 minutes as I was having a red, I can assure you the glass has not been anywhere near detergent or the dishwasher.

 

[jackgym]

Wipe off old yeast and sediment with cold water and cloth then (like Shamus) I use Aldi Di-San Pro Oxy, one lid full added to fermenter full of cold water and soak for around two hours.

Rinse out fermenter with hot water and store.

 

[Malter White]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:57 PM, NBillett09 said:

Was just having a beer in the kitchen and thinking, to avoid the contentious issue of dishwashing liquid on one’s brewing gear, what if you put your bottles/FV/whatever in the dishwasher and ran a hot cycle but without any soap at all, or even if you put a scoop of PBW in the soap holder? 
 

Not a serious question or suggestion, just thinking out loud!

If you can fit your equipment in your dishwasher - go for it. One of Cooper's DIY videos shows us to put the krausen kollar in it. So it must be safe to do so.
I've washed the kollar and other smaller items in the dishwasher with regular dish powder. A FV won't fit in my dishwasher.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Malter White

[Pale Man]

5 hours ago, Malter White said:

 A FV won't fit in my dishwasher.

A FV wont fit in my wife either.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

In relation to all this guys i was wondering if you guys mix up fresh solutions every time. For instance with line cleaning for a keg would it be OK to fill a plastic keg with sodium perc mixed solution. Another with sanitiser and use small amounts each time and let the rest sit until next time? Then of course rinsed with warm water.

I realise sodium perc soaking is usually done in warm water but if cools off is it less effective? 

I bought 3 plastic kegs and find the connections dodgy so rather serve or store beer I use them to clean lines. I'm just wondering on effectiveness if use small amounts then leave them until next time 

[Classic Brewing Co]

16 minutes ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

In relation to all this guys i was wondering if you guys mix up fresh solutions every time. For instance with line cleaning for a keg would it be OK to fill a plastic keg with sodium perc mixed solution. Another with sanitiser and use small amounts each time and let the rest sit until next time? Then of course rinsed with warm water.

I realise sodium perc soaking is usually done in warm water but if cools off is it less effective? 

I bought 3 plastic kegs and find the connections dodgy so rather serve or store beer I use them to clean lines. I'm just wondering on effectiveness if use small amounts then leave them until next time 

I have used my diluted Stella San which is in a large food grade tub with a lid quite a few times before refreshing it with no issues. 

It has only ever been cold water. 

I clean everything in there & it works fine.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

2 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I have used my diluted Stella San which is in a large food grade tub with a lid quite a few times before refreshing it with no issues. 

It has only ever been cold water. 

I clean everything in there & it works fine.

Thanks for that, I have sometimes left a keg with sanitiser for 3 weeks before kegging the beer but was not sure about longer. I suppose I will find out about sodium percarbonate and if the plastic keg is OK long term.

[Back Brewing]

Well these are my thoughts on the matter 

Make of it what you will

[Malter White]

1 hour ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

I bought 3 plastic kegs and find the connections dodgy 

When you say dodgy, are you having trouble putting disconnects on to them? I was having a real problem trying to push disconnects on to my steel kegs and was getting really annoyed. It didn't occur to me immediately to apply some keg lube but once I did - problem solved.

[Classic Brewing Co]

26 minutes ago, Malter White said:

When you say dodgy, are you having trouble putting disconnects on to them? I was having a real problem trying to push disconnects on to my steel kegs and was getting really annoyed. It didn't occur to me immediately to apply some keg lube but once I did - problem solved.

Lube helps heaps I find.

[Popo the Reprobate]

2 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

For instance with line cleaning for a keg would it be OK to fill a plastic keg with sodium perc mixed solution. Another with sanitiser and use small amounts each time and let the rest sit until next time? Then of course rinsed with warm water.

I realise sodium perc soaking is usually done in warm water but if cools off is it less effective? 

Sodium percarbonate only remains active for a short period after mixing with water. Somewhere in the range of 4-6 hours.

The makers of Star San say:

HOW LONG IS STAR SAN GOOD FOR ONCE IT’S MIXED INTO A SOLUTION?

Star San is an EPAs registered sanitizer and must be used immediately. We do not recommend using it if has been in solution longer than an hour. 

https://fivestarchemicals.com/star-san-sanitizer-16-oz

But, many people use and store it for much longer without problems.

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

In relation to all this guys i was wondering if you guys mix up fresh solutions every time. For instance with line cleaning for a keg would it be OK to fill a plastic keg with sodium perc mixed solution. Another with sanitiser and use small amounts each time and let the rest sit until next time? Then of course rinsed with warm water.

I realise sodium perc soaking is usually done in warm water but if cools off is it less effective? 

I bought 3 plastic kegs and find the connections dodgy so rather serve or store beer I use them to clean lines. I'm just wondering on effectiveness if use small amounts then leave them until next time 

Diluted Stellar San / Star San / Phosphoric Acid sanitisers last for ages.  They do reduce in effectiveness with time.  However, as long as their pH is less than a certain level, they are fine.  I cannot remember what that number is.  Somewhere in the 2's I think.

Interesting what @Popo the Degeneratefound about Star San.  Is that just to sell more product?  I use the same batch of Stellar San to sanitise and purge 10-15 kegs over whatever time it takes me to empty them.  So, at least a few months.  Maybe I have just been lucky.

I understand Sodium Perc is only effective for a few days.  I guess if you soak something in it and it is still producing bubbles, it is still working.  I only use it for a few hours at the longest.  I will use the same batch to clean my beer lines, then a couple of kegs, maybe a fermenter.  Then it gets tipped.  I have be known to soak a fermenter in Sodium Perc solution overnight.  However, the FV is probably clean after the first hour. 

[Malter White]

I don't understand the science behind it but I remember reading about sodium percarbonate. Once added to water the chemical reaction creates "oxygen?" that does the cleaning. I'd imagine this chemical reaction would have a limited life so sodium perc solution probably isn't something that can kept over a long period and still be effective.

[Back Brewing]

At the end of the day what you pay for it and how long they last I don't try to scrimp and save with them I just use it and ditch it after every brew what's in the spray bottle gets chucked after 2 weeks 

I live by a saying that you try and save a dollar today it's going to cost you $3 later on 

I look back on times I have tried to save a dollar and if I had paid the extra dollar it would have saved me heaps

Edited October 12, 2023 by Back Brewing

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Diluted Stellar San / Star San / Phosphoric Acid sanitisers last for ages.  They do reduce in effectiveness with time.  However, as long as their pH is less than a certain level, they are fine.  I cannot remember what that number is.  Somewhere in the 2's I think.

Interesting what @Popo the Degeneratefound about Star San.  Is that just to sell more product?  I use the same batch of Stellar San to sanitise and purge 10-15 kegs over whatever time it takes me to empty them.  So, at least a few months.  Maybe I have just been lucky.

I understand Sodium Perc is only effective for a few days.  I guess if you soak something in it and it is still producing bubbles, it is still working.  I only use it for a few hours at the longest.  I will use the same batch to clean my beer lines, then a couple of kegs, maybe a fermenter.  Then it gets tipped.  I have be known to soak a fermenter in Sodium Perc solution overnight.  However, the FV is probably clean after the first hour. 

Yeah I agree Shamus, you know when it's time to chuck it, comes with experience. 

It is pretty powerful stuff, a single bottle can last for ages.

[Back Brewing]

4 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Yeah I agree Shamus, you know when it's time to chuck it, comes with experience. 

It is pretty powerful stuff, a single bottle can last for ages.

I don't think it's got anything to do with experience I think it comes down to personal choice

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

@Malter White @Shamus O'Sean @Popo the Degenerate Thanks for the advice I will keep making the sodium perc solution fresh as you have suggested. I will keep re using the sanitiser a few times as have previously.

And malter in regards to the plastic kegs lube did not matter. It is I had to keep pushing the connection point on to pour or gas properly compared to metal kegs that don't need that. 3 kegs and 3 are shite but serve well for small line cleaning where I can put up with pushing connection on.

[Popo the Reprobate]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:20 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Interesting what @Popo the Degeneratefound about Star San.  Is that just to sell more product?  I use the same batch of Stellar San to sanitise and purge 10-15 kegs over whatever time it takes me to empty them.  So, at least a few months.  Maybe I have just been lucky.

I was surprised with that, too. It's the only time I have seen it stated. The usual advice is that it is fine to store mixed up and it's usable as long as the pH is in the right range.

I have written to them to find out. I'll post here when I hear back.

[Aussiekraut]

On 10/12/2023 at 8:20 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Interesting what @Popo the Degeneratefound about Star San.  Is that just to sell more product?  I use the same batch of Stellar San to sanitise and purge 10-15 kegs over whatever time it takes me to empty them.  So, at least a few months.  Maybe I have just been lucky.

Yeah, I have heard that before but there seems to be conflicting information. Some people connected to the makers of StarSan say it is fine to use for a long time, whereas others in the same organisation say once it turns cloudy it needs to be tipped. I once saw a video of a guy who spoke to some people at StarSan and got both statements, so it is unclear. Might just be a selling point but who knows?

I always have a 2l spray bottle of the stuff handy and I use it until it is empty, then I make a new solution. I also use it to sanitise multiple kegs by sanitising one, then push it out of the outpost into the next one and so on. At the end of the chain, there is usually a cube or an FV that also needs some sanitising. After that, I dispose of it. 

[Oldbloke]

Lol. Everyone knows better than Coopers. mmmmm

 

Abt 1-2 litr cold water, about 30-50ml (just a splash) of white king or equivalant. Put in mixing spoon, put lid on and give it a shake, abt 20 minutes later another shake wetting all surfaces. After abt 30 to 60 munutes tip it out and rinse with 1-3 litres of cold water. Then rinse/shake again with 1-2 litres of boiling water from kettle.

Job done.

Never any off/chlorine flavour in beer. Why? Because I rinsed it out. Doh.

Chlorine based bleach like white king is commonly used as a disinfectant in, hospitals, food industry and in your drinking water in small amounts. Good enough for me.

[Oldbloke]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:27 PM, NBillett09 said:

Was just having a beer in the kitchen and thinking, to avoid the contentious issue of dishwashing liquid on one’s brewing gear, what if you put your bottles/FV/whatever in the dishwasher and ran a hot cycle but without any soap at all, or even if you put a scoop of PBW in the soap holder? 
 

Not a serious question or suggestion, just thinking out loud!

I put all my stuppies and long necks through the dish washer.

Just normal tablet + rinse aid.

Rinse well then into dish washer neck down. 95% come out very clean. No scum no scrubbing. Get a few food particles some times in them but they just rinse out.

Coopers tell you that you can put the k collor in the dish washer IIRC.

 

Beer glasses better to hand wash.

[Aussiekraut]

10 hours ago, Oldbloke said:

Lol. Everyone knows better than Coopers. mmmmm

 

Abt 1-2 litr cold water, about 30-50ml (just a splash) of white king or equivalant. Put in mixing spoon, put lid on and give it a shake, abt 20 minutes later another shake wetting all surfaces. After abt 30 to 60 munutes tip it out and rinse with 1-3 litres of cold water. Then rinse/shake again with 1-2 litres of boiling water from kettle.

Job done.

Never any off/chlorine flavour in beer. Why? Because I rinsed it out. Doh.

Chlorine based bleach like white king is commonly used as a disinfectant in, hospitals, food industry and in your drinking water in small amounts. Good enough for me.

Yes, Coopers may suggest bleach, mainly because it is a way of sanitising most people have easy access to and most even already have it in the house. Coopers instructions are about ease of use to accommodate complete novices who do not want to run out and spend extra $$ on cleaning gear. It works of course but has pitfalls. Coopers themselves will certainly not clean their brewing gear with bleach. I wonder why? Bleach has its uses and most brewers will use it occasionally. If it works for you, stick with it but it surely isn't the bee's knees and shouldn't be sold as it.  

BTW, pour 5ml of StellarSan and 3l of water into a fermenter, give it a good shake, let sit for a minute and tip it out or save it for another FV or other gear that needs sanitation. On cleanup days, I can sanitise a couple of kegs, a cube or two and maybe a fermenter with the same solution in the space of about 15 minutes. No repeated rinsing, no nothing. 500ml of StellarSan easily lasts 6+ months. 

[Classic Brewing Co]

2 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

Yes, Coopers may suggest bleach, mainly because it is a way of sanitising most people have easy access to and most even already have it in the house. Coopers instructions are about ease of use to accommodate complete novices who do not want to run out and spend extra $$ on cleaning gear. It works of course but has pitfalls. Coopers themselves will certainly not clean their brewing gear with bleach. I wonder why? Bleach has its uses and most brewers will use it occasionally. If it works for you, stick with it but it surely isn't the bee's knees and shouldn't be sold as it.  

BTW, pour 5ml of StellarSan and 3l of water into a fermenter, give it a good shake, let sit for a minute and tip it out or save it for another FV or other gear that needs sanitation. On cleanup days, I can sanitise a couple of kegs, a cube or two and maybe a fermenter with the same solution in the space of about 15 minutes. No repeated rinsing, no nothing. 500ml of StellarSan easily lasts 6+ months. 

I agree AK, bleach should only be used in extreme cases when you fear there was an infection or the FV is really dirty & even then you have to scrub & rinse it to death to get rid of the smell etc. Stella San is definitely the way to go, as you say you don't see breweries using bleach.

Its only $10 a bottle ffs.