First lager questions

[Cassius]

Finally got my hands on a ferment fridge so going to do my first lager style next weekend. I'm thinking of trying a Marzen/Festbier as my first go so that the darker malts maybe hide some of my rookie mistakes. The issue I have now is one of actual fridge space for lagering the bottles, so I was looking into durations required and found this article. Up until this point I had thought that storing lagers at 2-3 degrees was a matter of flavour improvement, but it is in fact a matter of clarity.  I'm not too fussed about clarity just yet, so my plan is this:

• Standard lager ferment at around 10-12 degrees for the usual amount of time (7 days-ish);
• Raise temp to 15 or so for diacetyl rest;
• Skip cold crash as I'm not that bothered with clarity;
• Bottle and carb drop at around 15 degrees;
• Leave in the basement to carb up for a week or two at around 15 degrees;
• Put in the fridge for a week or so prior to consuming.

While this goes against a lot of what I've read here and other places, I've looked for ways to cut corners in my homebrewing since I started, so am at least interested in giving it a try. If you're still reading, I have a few questions that will help inform my process:

1. Is cold storage of lager beers just for clarity?
2. Can I skip the cold crash if I'm not worried about clarity?
3. Can I carbonate at standard cellar temps (15-16), or should I be doing it at primary ferment temp of around 10-12 degrees?

TIA, Cassius.

[Aussiekraut]

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

...I've looked for ways to cut corners in my homebrewing since I started...

Don't!

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

1. Is cold storage of lager beers just for clarity?
2. Can I skip the cold crash if I'm not worried about clarity?
3. Can I carbonate at standard cellar temps (15-16), or should I be doing it at primary ferment temp of around 10-12 degrees?

1. No, lagering (from the German "lagern" meaning storing) improves the flavour of the beer and is what leads to the clean and crisp taste of Lagers

2. You can skip the CC if you feel like it, no sweat

3. Carbonate at a higher temp but then store cold for a few weeks afterwards. It doesn't have to be 2 or 3 degrees but "fridge cold" is good. I know it is a pain and I don't have the fridge space to do so, which is why I don't do lagers...and because I prefer ales  

 

[iBooz2]

When using W-34/70 yeast (if you are wanting a real lager), at around BD + 7 to BD + 10 days I bump my temp up, first to 15 C then next day up to 18 C until day BD +14 when I begin the cold crash, step down to 2 C then I leave it there for minimum 7 days.  Then bottle, I do not have enough kegs ATM for long time storage so lagers get bottled in 740 ml PET’s.

This process with the current range of Coopers lager recipes has turned out very well, just had to work on the head retention and carbonation part, but more about that later.

Brewing a lager and not worrying about clarity is wasting your time IMO, if not worried about clarity then stick to ales.  A lager in my view has to be crisp, clean and clear but still full of flavour. W-34/70 will give you that if you respect it.

Way back in the old days I used to do what you propose to do and have since learned along the way, why most of those turned out to be very ordinary beers.  If you want to impress yourself and your mates with a lager, cold crash your brew for 1 week then store at whatever cooler temp and you will have to worry less about the long cold storage part in the bigger picture.

When you bottle your lager, do not use just 2 x Coopers carbonation drops (presumes 740 ml PET bottles here, not glass) as I have experimented with my lager brews bottled in PET and found, so far, that by using 1 x carb drop and 1 x cube of CSR white sugar to be way better, thanks to @MUZZY (I think).  I leave my lagers to carb at between 10 – 18 C at ambient inside the house for up to 3 weeks then just park them out in the shed at current ambient Melbourne winter temps for about  1 month then park them in a big chest freezer which is set to 2 C, which I also use for cold crashing FV’s.  Drink them after 2 – 3 months and they a great, maybe longer the better.

Also a small grain steep (cold) does wonders for the head retention as I think the basic kits just never get close to what the basic brewer / drinker expects in this regard.

Sorry about long reply, hope that helps, yep I am a bit of a lager man but love ales too.

Cheers - AL

Edited August 20, 2020 by iBooz2

[ScottyMac]

5 hours ago, Cassius said:

1. Is cold storage of lager beers just for clarity?
2. Can I skip the cold crash if I'm not worried about clarity?
3. Can I carbonate at standard cellar temps (15-16), or should I be doing it at primary ferment temp of around 10-12 degrees?

I can probably only comment on the last point here from my experience.  I'm fairly new to the whole brew thing, less than six months, but I did a lager recently.

I brought the bottles in to the house and bottle conditioned for around 3-4 weeks.  They took a while to firm up so I'm not sure how lower temps would go for conditioning.  Then I stuck them back out in the garage for a few weeks (as it was cold enough here in Melbourne) before touching.

For a total amateur I was fairly happy with the results.  I just wonder if carbonating/condition at those low temps might take a long time.

[Cassius]

Thanks for the responses. Based on the responses and this article from Brulosophy, who I trust, I'm planning to modify my approach a bit. I'll cold crash and fine with gelatin, but I really want to see if I can get away with only having the beer in the fermentor for 2 weeks. Reason being, I brew every weekend and turn my ales around in 2 weeks; I'd like to try keep to this schedule with lagers, if possible.

My new plan is:

• Ferment at 10-12 for 7-ish days;
• Up temp for diacetyl rest for 2-3 days;
• Cold crash for the remaining 3-4 days, adding gelatin once the temp has dropped enough;
• Bottle carb for 2 weeks at 16-ish degrees;
• Wack half the beers in the fridge to begin drinking a week later, with the remainder to be fed into the fridge as needed and allowing for at least a week of fridge conditioning.

I should mention that I'll be doing partial mashes aiming for approx 50% fermentables from grain, so hopefully body, head formation and head retention will be helped by my grain bill.

I should also mention that I'm not setting anything in stone. My entire time homebrewing has been based on experimentation and I now brew half-batches partly so I can try different things. If I don't get the results I want from this approach I'll modify it until I'm happy.

Cheers, Cassius.

[Otto Von Blotto]

That method will get you a drinkable lager but despite all the efforts of people like brulosophy trying to speed up the process, there is no way to speed up the process. A great lager takes time. Most of that time is post packaging, i.e. stored cold for a couple of months, but there are things that must be done with the fermentation as well. The biggest thing would be to pitch a shitload of yeast into it. 

I use a similar fermentation schedule with mine, but the main difference is doing a slow ramp down from the diacetyl rest over a few days to about 3 degrees for the cold conditioning rather than a straight crash, and I leave it longer before kegging, usually 10-14 days. I've found this to improve the flavour. Having two fermenters helps I suppose, as I can have whatever other batches going in the other one. 

They usually taste reasonable when I first carbonate them, but if I give them another month sitting cold in the keg they are brilliant. Whoever told you that lagering was only about clarity was misinformed. It is also, and probably more so about flavour improvement and refinement. It actually works with ales too.

Cutting corners rarely results in the best possible outcome. Small alterations won't be an issue, but skipping one of the main processes behind a really good lager won't give you a really good lager. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto

[Cassius]

@Otto Von Blotto cheers for the response. If I'm bottling, does that mean storage at fridge temp for over a month?

Regarding yeast, I was planning on using a full pack of W-34/70, rehydrated for a 10L batch, with some old can yeast as nutrient in the boil. Do you think this is sufficient?

[Shamus O'Sean]

@Cassius, when bottling a lager you still have to keep it at least at fermentation temperatures to carbonate the beer at first.  I keep them around 18 degrees for minimum two weeks, sometimes longer.  Then out in the garage in Melbourne's winter for a month or so.  I do not have a spare fridge to lager my lagers.

Yeast-wise I see that Fermentis recommends two packs of W-34/70 for around 20L of 1.050 wort.  So one should be enough for 10L.  I recommend rehydrating even if Fermentis advise it is not necessary. 

[Marty_G]

@Cassius I would take all of the advice of Otto Von B gives about lagers on board.   Majority of guys here are ale makers but Otto is a Pilsner drinker and his Pilsner recipe is a cracker.  Mind you he still makes ales. 

 

The whole idea of home brewing is to make beer you like so if you like lagers that don't have great clarity go for it. You can still make great lagers that are not crystal clear.  Cold crashing just makes it easier to get them clear quicker.  I make a pressure fermented Pilsner Urquell clone using Urquell yeast. It is so close it is just not funny. Only thing is mine is not crystal clear like the commercial one and I think mine has a tad more character to it.  

If you are bottling they will clear in the bottle but you will need to lager for longer as you will not have the benefit of the bulk conditioning that kegs give you. However, bulk conditioning can be achieved if you leave it in the fermenter for longer so don't be in a hurry to bottle it.  Usually I would say package after 48 hours of being stable but with a lager you can leave in the FV for longer to speed up conditioning.  

As far as finding short cuts.  I am a huge advocate for short cuts but not at the sake of quality.   When fermenting in a traditional FV the only short cut there actually is, is when you package. There is no way to hurry it up.  Use good fermentation practice then 48 hours after FG is reached you can move onto you next step, Bottle/keg, cold crash or bulk condition that it. If you want to speed things up you need to pressure ferment. Pressure fermentation is a whole different set of protocols which are faster than traditional methods.  Myself I am a pressure fermenter.  

I am not sure what others think but S23 is not a yeast I like. Much prefer W34/70 and Urquell 2001/Wyest Czech Pilsner.  Personally I think the U2001 makes the spiciness of the Saaz pop a bit more. 

 

[Cassius]

Thanks heaps @MartyG1525230263. I'll take all of that on board. One of my favourite things about homebrewing is the ability to change small variables and taste the results. I plan to homebrew for a long time so I'm sure I'll eventually determine exactly where I can gain some small accelerations in the process with either no effect on the end product or a small enough effect that I'm comfortable accepting it.

To be clear to you and @Aussiekraut, when I mentioned shortcuts, I essentially meant optimising. There are little things I've found in my relatively short time homebrewing where I can deviate from the widely-accepted rules with little effect to the end result. As with any science, the key is repetition; fortunately with homebrewing that just means drinking more beer. 

Cheers, Cassius.

[Marty_G]

3 minutes ago, Cassius said:

Thanks heaps @MartyG1525230263. I'll take all of that on board. One of my favourite things about homebrewing is the ability to change small variables and taste the results. I plan to homebrew for a long time so I'm sure I'll eventually determine exactly where I can gain some small accelerations in the process with either no effect on the end product or a small enough effect that I'm comfortable accepting it.

To be clear to you and @Aussiekraut, when I mentioned shortcuts, I essentially meant optimising. There are little things I've found in my relatively short time homebrewing where I can deviate from the widely-accepted rules with little effect to the end result. As with any science, the key is repetition; fortunately with homebrewing that just means drinking more beer. 

Cheers, Cassius.

I totally get where you are coming from.  Your way of thinking is precisely the reason why I now pressure ferment exclusively, use Kveik yeast for ales and keg.  There are way to tuen beers around quicker with no detriment to quality and with some an increase.  

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, provided you have room. Make sure they're carbonated first though, so yeah keep them warmer for 2-3 weeks after bottling then into the fridge. 

It's a bit easier with kegs because I can keep the beer cold from the start of the lagering in the fermenter. Fill the keg and stick it in the fridge and it never warms up again. 

As for the yeast, yes I reckon one pack will be enough for a 10 litre batch so you shouldn't have any issues there pitch it a little below ferment temp (say about 8-9 degrees if possible) and let it warm up, this is another thing I've found improves the flavour. 

[Lettucegrove]

So how would a lager turn out that has been brewed and kegged and then sat out at QLD ambient temps? Would this lager still develop in a positive way or would it go to shit because of the 20'C+ temps?

[Otto Von Blotto]

It wouldn't go shit, I've done it a number of times due to having no fridge space to put the keg. However, they do improve more/quicker when stored cold, because the cold temperature causes things to drop out which refines the flavour. It would probably happen at ambient as well but it would take a lot longer. 

[Lettucegrove]

8 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It wouldn't go shit, I've done it a number of times due to having no fridge space to put the keg. However, they do improve more/quicker when stored cold, because the cold temperature causes things to drop out which refines the flavour. It would probably happen at ambient as well but it would take a lot longer. 

Ah good to hear. I've only done the one lager and I had the fridge space to do it at the time. My next brew will now be a lager that may or may not go straight into the fridge. 

[Cassius]

One last question, this time regarding whirfloc. In the interest of clarity, and given there is no added time involved, I was planning on starting to use whirfloc from now on. On reading up though, I'm wondering if it will even do anything in my case. I'm doing stovetop BIAB partials. Basically after my boil, I cool the wort down in the sink and then just pour straight into the fermentor through a fine mesh strainer.

Is there any benefit to dropping things to the bottom of the pot, given I end up pouring essentially everything into a strainer, which stirs up everything at the bottom of the pot? Or will the  coagulated material stay large enough to be caught in the strainer?

[Marty_G]

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

Is there any benefit to dropping things to the bottom of the pot,

The only benefit I can think of is that the particulates will be bound together so they will be larger and easier to filter.  For the cost of the tablets I would give it a go and see.  Also will only need about a 1/4 of a tablet. 

 

 

[Tricky Micky]

Has anyone here used a cooling bag over their fermenter. One like this: Thoughts?

[Hairy]

I think @porschemad911 used to have a cool bag of some sort for brewing and had good results.

[Shamus O'Sean]

14 hours ago, Mickep said:

Has anyone here used a cooling bag over their fermenter

I recall other folks on the Forum using similar coolers too.  They seemed to do good with their brewing.

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

Yep. I had one for ages. It’s still in the shed come to think of it. Keep meaning to throw it on Gumtree.

They work pretty well, just need to keep the ice up to them in summer. I used to use 2 x 2l milk bottles with salted water in them and another two in the freezer and swap them over morning and night during summer. Usually just in the morning during winter.

I must say the fridge and temp controller was much easier, but I didn’t really have the space for it for ages so that was all I had.