Beerlust Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Hiya Kelsey. I agree with most of what you say especially about those scaremongering types that over-exaggerate things to the extreme, but am not entirely convinced science needs to meddle completely in what Mother Earth provides in some scenarios. 3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: Polyclar is also used for pill coatings. Thanks for the heads up on that, I didn't know that. 3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: I think a big part of the problem is people either don't understand science and/or think everything with a big sciency sounding name is toxic because of scaremongering blogs and other rubbish posted online by morons like David Wolfe. This I agree with. 3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: ...They'd rather believe that shit because they think industry and the scientific community are all part of some massive conspiracy to harm our health, and they fear what they don't or wilfully refuse to understand. Certainly, some things are toxic in very small amounts, and there are things put in food and drink that to me don't seem necessary to be added, but at the end of the day the alcohol in beer has the potential to do far more damage to health than anything else that might be in it. I don't blame the scientists per se, but more the corporate's that are asking them to do & create the things they do "unnaturally". When profits & shareholders are involved the conversations are very different. When something is driven by greed in any situation, the end result is rarely ever good on all levels. Everyone is familiar with the growth hormone KFC scandal a number of years ago. Do you honestly believe this sort of thing isn't still going on? Of course it is. A farmer is probably paid by weight of his chooks/cattle/pigs, not by how many he hands over to the corporate's in a lot of cases. When you go to the large supermarkets these days, the fruit & veg section is more a designer market than a fresh food market. Everything there doesn't haven't a blemish on it. Dimensions have to be a certain size/length/weight/colour etc. else it is rejected by the big supermarket chains. In the ultimate search for perfection, blandness is often the end result. Most of which have been genetically engineered (Another term for GMO). I think this is why I decided to start growing a few of my own vegetables. As to who I'd prefer make me a beer, I'll take a "Greeny" over an accountant any day. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 It has been illegal to add hormones to livestock of all forms for decades however, antibiotics is a different matter ... sorry i withdraw that just did some research and i am wrong .... my apologies ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, MartyG1525230263 said: It has been illegal to add hormones to livestock of all forms for decades however, antibiotics is a different matter ... If it's not hormones, it'll be something in the guise of hormones, or something that replicates similar outcomes. I'm not a farmer, but if I was & I could find a financially viable way to add weight to my livestock (legally or illegally) that would guarantee me a supermarket contract without coming under the notice of the regulatory bodies, I'd probably do it to give me & my family financial security. Again, I don't knock the farmer, I knock the corporate' powerhouses's that place them in this position in the first place. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Even year 10 level teaching in science should be enough. Natural doesn't mean safe, artificial doesn't make it unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashed Crabs Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Iv spent $500+ on a day/ nights out on the commercial stuff and spent days recovering. Last Anzac day I nearly needed the drip to recover. But I had a aussie day BBQ and drank about 9 -11 tall-es of my stuff ranging from 5.5% -6.5% and was golden the next day.. Yeah not same quantities plus I mix my drinks hard when out .. go from pints of beer to shots and long island ice teas. But deffinatly felt a lot cleaner the next day in the home brew .. the sugar in the mixes deffinatly is a factor thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashed Crabs Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mark D Pirate said: Even year 10 level teaching in science should be enough. Natural doesn't mean safe, artificial doesn't make it unsafe. 100% correct take the company NATURAL confectionary company... nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Beerlust said: Everyone is familiar with the growth hormone KFC scandal a number of years ago. Do you honestly believe this sort of thing isn't still going on? Of course it is. A farmer is probably paid by weight of his chooks/cattle/pigs, not by how many he hands over to the corporate's in a lot of cases. 'm not a farmer, but if I was & I could find a financially viable way to add weight to my livestock (legally or illegally) that would guarantee me a supermarket contract without coming under the notice of the regulatory bodies, I'd probably do it to give me & my family financial security. What a Chinese KFC supplier in China gets away with is a different story. No hormones are used in poultry production, by anyone. What farmer do do is use high protein feeds and more intensive farming. This gets birds to a bigger weight quicker. But some hormones are allowed to be used in cattle and it is monitored. You're oversimplifying the idea farmers can do what they like on the quiet. Everyone in the food production chain is subjected to an independent audit process - to meet both supermarket in house standards, and federal legislation. No documented quality/safety system and audit? No supermarket contract. My wife has been involved in the food industry for over 2 decades. She writes food safety and quality programmes, and audits to numerous industry standards. Using hormones would have to be mandated by the supermarkets for it to happen, and if any producers were playing cowboy, 3rd party auditors would find it. She won't buy any imported fresh foods from China though, because their processes can't be verified from overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Lab Rat said: ...You're oversimplifying the idea farmers can do what they like on the quiet. Everyone in the food production chain is subjected to an independent audit process - to meet both supermarket in house standards, and federal legislation. No documented quality/safety system and audit? No supermarket contract. Yes I am oversimplifying it to save time highlighting the many intricacies & diverse aspects of this conversation as a whole on what is supposed to be a brewing forum. You're suggesting the audit process isn't without corruption. No offence meant, but a very naive view of how the world goes around. BTW, in no way am I suggesting that your wife is in any way corrupt in her current position/role in this field. I'm just speaking generally. I've met a lot of different people from a lot of different walks of life & had some very interesting stuff told to me over the years that vastly contradicts the super clean image of many industries & business practices. I'll oversimplify again... ...don't believe everything you see on TV. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, Beerlust said: YYou're suggesting the audit process isn't without corruption. No offence meant, but a very naive view of how the world goes around. BTW, in no way am I suggesting that your wife is in any way corrupt in her current position/role in this field. I'm just speaking generally. Your 'oversimplifying' is just generalising and breeding further ignorance - something I was trying to diminish with some industry facts. There are good and bad auditors, but in 25 years, we've not seen a corrupt one. This is coming from people who are actually in this industry my friend, I'm not pulling opinions from my butt. Sorry if I offend, but you are. Food techs and auditors are also audited and have to show compliance in order to stay registered. The work my mrs does, if she were ever corrupt and tuned a blind eye to anything a producer may be doing that's illegal, would see her livelihood disappears very quickly. Audit contractors would not use her, and legit producers wouldn't either. No industry is super clean, but that doesn't mean the binary opposite - that everyone is dirty. Most cowboys get found out eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Homebrew is beneficial, because if you are doing it right, it makes you happy, takes your mind off things, relieves stress. Stress can make you sick to terminally ill. So in that way, it's a very healthy activity, so long as you don't go nuts drinking too much. I don't have much each day, because I love beer so much, I never want to hear a doc say you have to stop having it. If I'm having trouble falling asleep, I just think about my latest batch and plan my next batch and before you know it, I'm de-stressed and sleeping soundly, and sleep is good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, Lab Rat said: Your 'oversimplifying' is just generalising and breeding further ignorance - something I was trying to diminish with some industry facts. There are good and bad auditors, but in 25 years, we've not seen a corrupt one. This is coming from people who are actually in this industry my friend, I'm not pulling opinions from my butt. Sorry if I offend, but you are. Yes, the corrupt ones always put their hands up that they are acting in a corrupt manner. Nothing you have said offends me at all, we're just talking & sharing a conversation as far as I'm concerned. I've interacted with some of the kindest & most hard working people on the surface you would ever meet, & were eventually found to be stealing & doctoring information to cover up their illegal activities & theft. Microsoft Windows is constantly hacked because it is a system. Once you understand the system you can work out its' faults & exploit them to your own ends. Oversimplifying again... ...Not everyone looks at a white sheet of paper as "a white sheet of paper". Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Baron Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Beerlust said: I've interacted with some of the kindest & most hard working people on the surface you would ever meet Well that rules me out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Beerlust said: Yes, the corrupt ones always put their hands up that they are acting in a corrupt manner. Nothing you have said offends me at all, we're just talking & sharing a conversation as far as I'm concerned. Just becasue you've known of bad experiences in other areas, doesn't mean that brush tars everything. Opinions are only worth something if they're based on facts and personal experience, not bad news stories of about a handful of people that disappoint. I've only attempted to show how an aspect of the industry works, as it's not something people see. Like I said, cowboys exist everywhere. Eventually, most feel to safe and get too cocky. That's exactly how you found out about the people who disappointed you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Nobody is saying corruption doesn't exist. Of course it does, but is the majority of any industry corrupt? Of course not. That's like saying the majority of the public are criminals. Obviously they aren't gonna go around giving themselves up willingly but eventually they make a mistake somewhere and get caught, like any other criminal. It would be very very few who never get found out. One issue is that these conspiracy nutters take a few isolated incidents and then turn it into this whole shitstorm that doesn't exist. They tar everyone in an industry with the same brush as the bad ones, like these idiots saying all cops are scum because a small minority abuse their power. The other issue that is probably more to the point here is the sensationalist bloggers making unfounded claims about things they know little to nothing about. They like to cite studies that are either too small to really mean anything or flawed to begin with. They think chemicals are dangerous, or dangerous in any amount, which just isn't true. They think everything artificial is bad, again not true. There are a lot of things I don't know much about, but when I'm looking for information about something I seek out reputable sources, not clowns like food babe who just write shit to get hits on their sites. If everyone did that then these scaremongers wouldn't get any attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Polysaccharide, anybody? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Judging whether a beer is good or bad based on whether it gives you a hangover when you over-indulge glosses over a number of issues and over-simplifies things. If you don't get a hangover, you may get a false sense of security that it is safe / okay. Nowadays there are all kinds of emulsifiers and stabilizers in food; in fact, they are almost impossible to avoid. By their very nature emulsifiers are hard on the lining of the gut, which is very important to our health and a measly once cell thick. Since alcohol is also hard on the lining of the gut, best to drink in moderation. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 12 hours ago, Lab Rat said: Just becasue you've known of bad experiences in other areas, doesn't mean that brush tars everything. Fair call. 12 hours ago, Lab Rat said: ...Like I said, cowboys exist everywhere. Eventually, most feel to safe and get too cocky. That's exactly how you found out about the people who disappointed you. In the firsthand cases I've seen & been around I was more shocked than anything. They were work colleagues, not close friends. Back to brewing, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Baron Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 4 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: Judging whether a beer is good or bad based on whether it gives you a hangover when you over-indulge glosses over a number of issues and over-simplifies things. If you don't get a hangover, you may get a false sense of security that it is safe / okay. I just don’t like hangovers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeastyBoy Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 57 minutes ago, Beer Baron said: I just don’t like hangovers Hear, hear. At this stage in life, I drink to enjoy the moment/ the brew rather than to total myself to the point of absolute misery. Home brewing allows me to decide what is in my brews to ensure I get the outcome I strive to achieve. Well that's the theory not always the result!! Think marketing folk call it consumer control or such like and sticking the middle finger up to government excise? Plenty of crud in some commercial beers that are simply not worth the coin or damage to your health and I am pleased I don't drink them. Back to planning my next brew without fish guts & anti freeze. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Baron Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, YeastyBoy said: Hear, hear. At this stage in life, I drink to enjoy the moment/ the brew rather than to total myself to the point of absolute misery. I find at my old age I feel the affects of alcohol a lot more than 10 years ago even with my home brew. Most of the time I only have 3-4 beers while the kids run around the yard and I’m cooking the BBQ and watching sport. If I have a big one these days it might be 6-7 beers and I can’t remember the last time I went to the pub and had IMO the crap they serve at my local. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 But the alcohol in beer is completely safe to your health . It's the most dangerous thing in beer and you're worried about trace amounts of fish guts causing problems? That's exactly the type of bullshit peddled by these bloggers, that teeny tiny amounts of something are gonna cause massive issues. Isinglass doesn't even end up in bottles or kegs. It's left behind in the fermentation or conditioning tanks. Propylene glycol is perfectly safe in the tiny amounts used in beer if it's even used at all. Craft brewers certainly wouldn't be using it. It is used to flood beer fonts, but obviously doesn't end up in the beer in that scenario. It's used in quite a few different foods as well. It is used in non toxic anti freeze coolants, but the dangerous one is ethylene glycol, as well as methanol, neither of which are added to beer although it probably contains trace amounts of methanol from fermentation, just not enough to do any harm. Personally I don't see any need to add glycol to beer. If they want it sweeter then surely using less hops would be cheaper than adding more stuff to it. It's my understanding that they actually use it to aid in head retention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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