PB2 Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 So I've now chucked in the only yeast I had available spare' date=' which was an Irish Stout yeast, as soon as it hit the brew it went mental, fizz volume went to 8, and big white creamy almost ugly looking bubbles started popping up.[/quote']This means that the brew was already fermenting quite happily. I've never had to add extra yeast' date=' so I hope this is normal?[/quote']You didn't have to add extra yeast. What do you mean by "fizz volume"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyDave Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Fizz volume lol, I use a cling film seal, so I can put my ear to that and hear the activity in the brew, and I know from experience what to expect. The more/the louder the more activity. Are you telling us that this new ranges' yeast is very slow acting? Because it's coming across as about 5 times slower than previous yeast sachets. This brew did exactly the same as the previous one, that one never got started and was chucked out. I can't believe a yeast can be that slow at 22c, it's more logical to think 95% of the yeast was dead, and the slow start was the yeast playing catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 That's why I suggested waiting 48 hours, I know it sounds ridiculous for a yeast to be that slow at 22C but some are for whatever reason. The fact you had a layer of bubbles on top of the brew, even though it wasn't covering it entirely, means it was fermenting, or beginning to, and I daresay if you'd left it another day you would have ended up with a nice krausen, perhaps not as big as you're used to, but it would have eventuated. Just as an example of how even the same yeast can behave differently, my last two batches were both fermented with US-05 at 18C. The first of these had a big krausen probably 2 inches high on it, with large bubbles on top. The one in there currently would have been lucky to get to an inch high and the bubbles were quite small. The malt makeup probably has something to do with this as well; the first batch contained crystal and some Munich along with the base malt whereas the second batch was 100% base malt. If you'd only had 5% viable yeast you would not have gotten any of the bubbling that you did get. I can understand apprehension given that another one of these didn't start at all - but this one did start, so throwing more yeast at it was unnecessary really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBoy Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 From memory... i had 2 brews in my brew fridge with the yeast packets pitched into the wort at about 24deg and i brought the temp down to about 20 deg using frozen 2ltr ice bottles, both were created at the exact same time. One was the Brew A and the other was the bootmakers, they were both done exactly as the instructions stated on the tin as a base experiment of what the beer is like standard. I first posted a question here about the yeast in the bootmakers because the Brew A was really slowing down its fermentation before the bootmaker seemed to visually get going... from memory i think this was at about day 6?... I initially thought i had stuffed it some how, but after tasting it last night ive convinced myself that its just how this brew/yeast is... perhaps it just needs time/patience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Given Coopers somewhat allegiance to Lallemand/Danstar dry yeast strains in many of the ROTM's, it's not unreasonable (for me at least) to believe that the strain accompanying the TC Bootmaker's Pale Ale kit could well be their BRY-97 strain. The brew activity described by some brewers in this thread, & the lag time in particular after pitching the yeast accompanying this kit does ring very true with my usages of the BRY-97 yeast strain, & the subsequent failures it caused me. I've already beaten up on it enough on the forum, so no need to do it again here, but if indeed it is this strain under the lid, I can't say I'm at all surprised at what brewers are experiencing with it. I have purchased & brewed the Bootmakers Pale Ale kit, but I used US-05 on it. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Are you telling us that this new ranges' yeast is very slow acting? Because it's coming across as about 5 times slower than previous yeast sachets. This brew did exactly the same as the previous one' date=' that one never got started and was chucked out. I can't believe a yeast can be that slow at 22c, it's more logical to think 95% of the yeast was dead, and the slow start was the yeast playing catch up.[/quote']When a brew is first mixed up it will have a negligible amount of gas in solution - essentially flat. If you introduce dry ingredients to the brew (whether it be yeast, sugar or something else) and foaming activity happens immediately, it's due to CO2 gas in solution. If this occurs at the 24hr mark it indicates that fermentation is going along quite nicely. You could listen for the volume of fizz but a more accurate method for gauging fermentation activity would be to measure the SG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyDave Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Ok thanks for that explanation PB2. There's definately a distinct difference in krausen, going from 4 or 5 inches of Swiss Alps with the old cans, to a flat moon with the new cans is a radical change for me. So if, as Lusty says, this is due to a different yeast strain, then I'll deal with that now I can understand some reasoning for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopers DIY Beer Team Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 Hi All Thanks for your feedback on the new Thomas Coopers series trials. Its great that most of you enjoyed the beers they produced. Unfortunately as some of you have experienced, we discovered that a proportion of the yeast supplied to us for use in Bootmaker and Brew A in some instances did not ferment. Whilst it seems it is only a random small number of the first run that are exhibiting this problem, it is still not acceptable. As such we have replaced all the yeasts in these products with new blends. We will be sending all of our trial testers new product and adjuncts to brew up. Anyone else who has had one of these brews not ferment, please contact us. We apologize to all of our loyal brewers for this problem, however we can assure all of you that the products are now brewing up as they should and you can purchase them with confidence. Thank you all again for your support and honest feedback, we really appreciate it. Yours Sincerely The Coopers DIY Beer Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Chop Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Super cool. I'll make the Bootmaker with the new yeast blend as per the last one to see how it compares. Thanks Coopers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 G’day Coopers DIY Team – Its great to hear that the issue of the yeast saga has been finally sorted and we can all go back to brewing the TC series kits with the usual confidence that we have always had in the past with our Coopers products. Thank you Coopers for getting back to us and taking concrete action to rectify this issue. This issue will hopefully only be a blip on the radar in a few weeks when we are all looking back through the rear vision mirror of time and successfully brewing away our yummy Thomas Coopers Series kits. Incidentally……… I’ve just had a little taste test from the FV (½ a schooner) of my Bootmaker which has been dry hopped at 14ºC and is now in the crash chilling phase, and I think it is absolutely delicious. I reckon by 4 weeks in the bottle this is going to be one great beer in my opinion. DIY Team, just as a matter of abject curiosity what was the yeast that was supplied in the old Bootmaker and Brew A IPA?…….and also what specifically have you now replaced it with? DIY Team, on behalf of all of your loyal brewers I thank you for your sincere apology that you have expressed and I am sure we can now put this all to bed and get on with some great brewing. Bottoms up - Morrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 DIY Team' date=' just as a matter of abject curiosity what was the yeast that was supplied in the old Bootmaker and Brew A IPA?…….and also what specifically have you now replaced it with? [/quote'] I don't think they'll be divulging that information mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Its always worth a try mate. Lets see what the response is. Maybe good for a giggle anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaffeinatedSentryGnome Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Ive just noticed that some of the recipes have been updated for the new cans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyDave Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Hmmm oh la de da, so now my replacement cans are probably useless as suspected, omg. I think it was 29th December Lusty posed the question about the glue guns being hot for the yeast, and maybe mid Feb when I pointed out that the yeast wasn't working. Disbelief and derision from forum members, no replies from Coopers, and boom, all is revealed and everyone is thanking Coopers. Slight notes of sycophant. Maybe Coopers should try listening to people that actually brew their beer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Nothing stopping you from throwing a few bucks at a pack of US-05 or something if you don't have confidence in the kit yeast. From what I recall, you had one brew that failed to start at all (if there were more, I didn't see any posts about them). Then your current brew was working but because you didn't get your usual "Swiss Alps" krausen after 24 hours you deemed it a fail as well, despite advice twice from myself and PB2 that it was in fact, working. And after that advice that it was fine, you still go on to claim that the yeast was 95% dead, which is highly unlikely given the action that was happening in the fermenter. Y'know, I've been around this brewing caper a fair while now and done a lot of research and reading about it. I certainly don't know everything about brewing, and would never claim to but I've used a number of different yeasts and experienced big krausen, small krausen, short lag time, long lag time and everything in between. There's no standard for a fermentation... but if I feel as though my advice and knowledge is falling on deaf ears, then I will cease to offer it. However, I still stand by my comments that it could have easily been made known that the issue was being looked into after concerns were first raised about it, so that people knew what was happening. I did see a post earlier that mentioned something about emails not being received, and if that was the case then they had nothing to respond to directly. Obviously, it was being looked into as we now know, since the yeasts have been changed, so the forum posts must have been noticed. It could have been posted on here that it was being investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyDave Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 I'd already put the extra yeast in before your advice came, so no I'm not disrespecting your advice. I had 2 fails, my neighbour had 2 fails with the new kits, others were mentioning fails, then this one started very slowly and out of character. When you've done something 1000 times, and suddenly something changes, logic tells you something is wrong or different. Logic also says that if I put 5% of a yeast pack in the brew, it's going to start slower? I don't know because direct questions are not answered, such as 'is this yeast slower acting?', so I'm back to logic and second guessing. This thread was started by Coopers, asking for feedback, the next stage of good communication is to acknowledge that feedback - they didn't. Whilst we've been ignored, they've now redesigned the whole kit, and I'm told these were random isolated cases? I'm just their target customer, I brew their beer and spend over $1000 a year with them, so when I point out somethings wrong, maybe I could get some respect for that, rather than have it fall on deaf ears? Seems you don't like it, why should I? Ain't got the time for this second guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 OK……Some customers have had dead brews, some have had very slow brews and some have had no issues with the Thomas Coopers Series kits. Yes…..In my opinion this could have all been handled much better by Coopers but in the end I believe they have put out the bush fire and have actioned a satisfactory solution for all. I think that Coopers have probably learnt something from all of this. I haven’t heard anything yet about the dented cans issue but Coopers have probably been busy investigating the suspect yeast issue for now. The dented cans are not a great hurdle for me but just something that was a little annoying and I would like a response from Coopers on this. The online ordering customers may well be the receivers of dented stock that is not acceptable to put on a LHBS or a Dan Murphy’s shelf. The online Coopers club members do receive a discount and once each month a free freight deal which for me compensates for this little inconvenience. I can’t buy TC series kits in the town where I live. I think it is a realistic compromise. Coopers have rectified the issue of suspect yeast, extended an olive branch to many by replacing some kits and apologized to all of their loyal brewers. For me I am happy with this outcome and I don’t think it is being sycophantic to accept their apology in building a bridge and moving on from all of this. This is the final post from me on this issue as in my opinion it has been satisfactorily resolved. Dead buried and cremated....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Yes, obviously it's a different yeast to what you've been using up until now, and obviously it's behaving differently and it's natural to ask questions. For the ones that didn't work at all, nothing can be done about them now unfortunately, but clearly the yeast was shot in those instances, for whatever reason. In any case, 24 hours isn't really long enough to start panicking about lack of activity (although there was activity here); if it gets into the third day (48 hours +), then I think that's about the time where you'd start thinking about pitching more yeast, but before doing so it's always a good idea to take a hydrometer sample and see if the SG is dropping as some yeasts show very little activity even though they are working. Visual cues are useful, but the hydrometer is the only accurate indicator. Logic may say that to you regarding 5% viability but experience and knowledge (of various strains and also yeast behaviour) tells me that if the viability was that low then the most likely outcome would have been no action at all again, and another batch tipped. So in this instance I don't think the viability was anywhere near that low, it sounds more like it's just the way that yeast operates, however, it may have also lost some viability (just not 95% of it) as you are right that less viable yeast will start slower, as it needs more time to build up the required cells for fermentation to take place. I can't really say any more to convince you that your yeast was not that dead. I'm not disagreeing that there could have been better communication about the issue through the process, and said as much myself on an earlier post. They may have been random isolated cases, but who knows. At least the issue appears to have been resolved now, even though the communication about it was seemingly lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Hi Coopers DIY team , So what best before date can i look for on the cans with revised yeast ? Already brewed an 86 days pils and the bootmaker , neither were impressive at bottling time but still weeks off tasting so final result unknown Marko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Excellent news! Thanks Coopers for acknowledging & working to identify & resolve the cause of our concerns! As I just got my brew fridge & STC 200 on Friday, I'll now be able to brew my second attempt of the sample TC range with confidence & satisfaction, & I'm sure a much better outcome than the previous batch, let alone any brew that was made using the swamp box method. I'm planning on moving to extract brewing in the near future, but will still continue to brew the occasional Coopers brew, & will always look at my time as a K&K & kits & bits brewer as an essential part of my road to satisfaction in home-brewing. Apart from occasional aberrations as mentioned in this thread, I've generally found Coopers products to be good quality, reliable, & value for money, & will continue to use them whenever appropriate for a recipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie49 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 All sounds good now, well done Coopers for finding and addressing the problem,, we can all get back to the serious business of brewing again! (And tasting responsibly, of course!) As someone asked in a previous post, in the unlikely event I can find any of these cans in Big W, Woolies, LHBS, etc., is there a date or batch number I need to check before buying? I say in the unlikely event, as previously my LHBS has told me his supplier is not releasing the new cans until the retailers have sold all the current stock, which of course, no one wants as they can get it half price at woolies or wherever! And of course, I am still beating myself about the head for missing out on the original test Brewer deal by approximately five minutes! (Boo hoo, think I'll go and sulk in the corner) Cookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopers DIY Beer Team Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 G’day Coopers DIY Team – Its great to hear that the issue of the yeast saga has been finally sorted and we can all go back to brewing the TC series kits with the usual confidence that we have always had in the past with our Coopers products. Thank you Coopers for getting back to us and taking concrete action to rectify this issue. This issue will hopefully only be a blip on the radar in a few weeks when we are all looking back through the rear vision mirror of time and successfully brewing away our yummy Thomas Coopers Series kits. Incidentally……… I’ve just had a little taste test from the FV (½ a schooner) of my Bootmaker which has been dry hopped at 14ºC and is now in the crash chilling phase' date=' and I think it is absolutely delicious. I reckon by 4 weeks in the bottle this is going to be one great beer in my opinion. DIY Team, just as a matter of abject curiosity what was the yeast that was supplied in the old Bootmaker and Brew A IPA?…….and also what specifically have you now replaced it with? DIY Team, on behalf of all of your loyal brewers I thank you for your sincere apology that you have expressed and I am sure we can now put this all to bed and get on with some great brewing. Bottoms up - Morrie [/quote'] Hi Morrie, Nice try Cheers The Coopers DIY Beer Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopers DIY Beer Team Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Hmmm oh la de da' date=' so now my replacement cans are probably useless as suspected, omg. I think it was 29th December Lusty posed the question about the glue guns being hot for the yeast, and maybe mid Feb when I pointed out that the yeast wasn't working. Disbelief and derision from forum members, no replies from Coopers, and boom, all is revealed and everyone is thanking Coopers. Slight notes of sycophant. Maybe Coopers should try listening to people that actually brew their beer?[/quote'] Hi LazyDave, Sorry to hear you seem to have had a couple of the problem yeast cans. As mentioned in our previous post, if you have some of these, please contact us. If you contact us via the Coopers store phone (1300 304 938) or email (store@coopers.com.au) we will do our best to assist you. Cheers The Coopers DIY Beer team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopers DIY Beer Team Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 All sounds good now' date=' well done Coopers for finding and addressing the problem,, we can all get back to the serious business of brewing again! (And tasting responsibly, of course!)As someone asked in a previous post, in the unlikely event I can find any of these cans in Big W, Woolies, LHBS, etc., is there a date or batch number I need to check before buying? I say in the unlikely event, as previously my LHBS has told me his supplier is not releasing the new cans until the retailers have sold all the current stock, which of course, no one wants as they can get it half price at woolies or wherever! And of course, I am still beating myself about the head for missing out on the original test Brewer deal by approximately five minutes! (Boo hoo, think I'll go and sulk in the corner) Cookie[/quote'] Hi Cookie49, Thanks for your post. We narrowed the problem cans down to 43 LHBS. We have contacted these stores and asked them to isolate the cans. We are sending our people into each of these stores to replace the yeasts. The store owners are aware of the issue and will make sure you are not sold any of the possibly problematic cans. So you can shop with confidence! . Re supply of the new cans, all LHBS stores have been able to order these via the wholesaler since last December. If any aren't stocking them until the previous style TC cans are sold out then it is their choice not the wholesalers. Cheers The Coopers DIY Beer Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie49 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Thanks guys. Seems my post got deleted, no worries. Cookie49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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