Mosaic Amber Ale

[Canadian Eh!L]

Hey Phil,

I would normally have a little more bitterness in my brews, but i'm trying to branch a bit.

[Canadian Eh!L]

Wow! Great brew, Lusty. I enjoyed every pint I poured for myself and everyone I share it with all had very good things to say. now it's gone. I'm already planning a second batch real soon. Thanks for the great recipe.

[Beerlust]

G'day Chad.

 

I'm really glad you liked the beer.

 

I certainly owed you something decent after brewing your Big Island IPA multiple times that also helped me spawn a couple of other lovely beers!

 

First time using Mosaic for you, so what did you think of the hop?

 

Cheers & good brewing,

 

Lusty.

 

 

[Hairy]

I am still enjoying this beer too.

 

As much as I hate giving Lusty a compliment, this is a nice beer

[Beerlust]

As much as I hate giving Lusty a compliment' date=' this is a nice beer [img']innocent[/img]

As much as I hate agreeing with Hairy, he is correct, it is a nice beer.

 

Seriously, I'm glad you're still enjoying it Hairy.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[porschemad911]

G'day Lusty, I have been thinking about giving this a go for the past little while. This is based on the all grain version you originally did up for Hairy in your Jan 21st post. I am lazy so just included a single dry hop.

 

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com'>http://www.beersmith.com

Recipe: Lusty's Mosaic Amber Ale

Brewer: porschemad911

Asst Brewer: He fell down

Style: American Amber Ale

TYPE: All Grain

Taste: (30.0)

 

Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Boil Size: 13.95 l

Post Boil Volume: 10.92 l

Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 l

Bottling Volume: 10.50 l

Estimated OG: 1.050 SG

Estimated Color: 34.4 EBC

Estimated IBU: 35.7 IBUs

Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %

Est Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %

Boil Time: 60 Minutes

 

Ingredients:

------------

Amt Name Type # %/IBU

1250.00 g Weyermann Pilsner Malt (4.0 EBC) Grain 1 50.8 %

475.00 g Thomas Fawcett Floor Malted Maris Otter Grain 2 19.3 %

325.00 g Weyermann Munich I Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 3 13.2 %

225.00 g Simpsons Medium Crystal Malt (150.0 EBC) Grain 4 9.1 %

125.00 g Weyermann Carahell Malt (25.0 EBC) Grain 5 5.1 %

60.00 g JWM Chocolate Malt (650.0 EBC) Grain 6 2.4 %

5.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 13.4 IBUs

5.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 20.0 m Hop 8 10.0 IBUs

5.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 10.0 m Hop 9 6.0 IBUs

5.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 10 6.3 IBUs

1.0 pkg Bedford British Ale (White Labs #WLP006) Yeast 11 -

10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Hop 12 0.0 IBUs

 

 

Mash Schedule: My Mash (Esky)

Total Grain Weight: 2460.00 g

----------------------------

Name Description Step Temperat Step Time

Mash Add 8.00 l of water at 75.0 C 67.0 C 60 min

 

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 7.87l) of 78.0 C water

Notes:

------

 

 

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Beerlust]

Hi John.

 

I'm glad you're going to give the recipe a go.

 

Just one thing I noted in your recipe construction I thought worth mentioning was the hop bill. From memory you are now also "No chilling"? Not that I think it has a huge bearing here, but I was a little concerned with your bittering addition @ 60mins. With the recipe, you really want to be aiming for somewhere around 22-24 IBU from that addition. Your current schedule has you about 10 IBU shy of that for that 60min addition & you appear to be using the Mosaic in your other additions to garner additional bitterness.

 

If you are planning on no-chilling the brew, I'd perhaps look at what Ben10 does with a number of his recipes, & shift the Mosaic additions a little further forward (even whirlpooling the lot if necessary) to achieve the additional 10 or so IBU after the Centennial 22-24 IBU addition. The beer is meant to be a nice malty beer with some nice flavours & aromas from the Mosaic anyways, so moving the Mosaic a little closer to flameout etc. will only help to enhance that aspect of the beer anyway.

 

I'm not saying your hop schedule won't produce a nice outcome, I just feel the balance will be a little different is all. Perhaps ask a few of the "no-chill' gang for a few thoughts if indeed you are no-chilling it.

 

Good luck with the brew.

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think it really depends on what you did with your original recipe Lusty. Did you chill the boiled wort straight away after flameout or did you leave the hops in it for a period of time first? This would affect or influence where the late additions are added in a no-chill version. If it was chilled straight away then I'd probably say add all the late hops even straight to the cube to try to mimic that; if it was left sit for 20 mins or whatever, you could probably get away with maybe a 5 or 10 minute addition and then either add the rest at flameout for a short steep, or cube hop them.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

I use the same routine post flameout each time regardless of the beer style.

 

The pot of boiling wort goes straight in the sink & is surrounded with cold tap water. I monitor the temp & throw my flameout hops into the cooling wort once it hits about 75-80°C. The water surrounding the pot is changed for more fresh cold water after approx. 10-15 mins as it has equalized to a point somewhere approaching the wort temperature & is still quite warm to hot.

 

By the time the pot has been off the burner & in the sink for 30mins, it has cooled sufficiently to combine in the fermenter with my other ingredients etc.

 

Whatever your processes are, following the same routine each time you brew creates a consistency from brew to brew that helps exclude certain areas when problem solving.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

In that case, I'd probably suggest a cube hop for a no-chill version then. It would likely get the closest approximation to your original.

 

It's all well and good to have the same procedure for every brew when you're creating your own recipes but if you are trying to replicate someone else's, it is useful to know the chilling method they used, if they used one at all, and how long after flameout the chilling commenced, in order to decide whether or not, or when to shift any hop additions when no-chilling. Even if you chill your wort it's handy to know so you can replicate that as well to try to get as close as possible to the original recipe. That's all I was getting at.

[Beerlust]

It's all well and good to have the same procedure for every brew when you're creating your own recipes but if you are trying to replicate someone else's' date=' it is useful to know the chilling method they used, if they used one at all, and how long after flameout the chilling commenced, in order to decide whether or not, or when to shift any hop additions when no-chilling. Even if you chill your wort it's handy to know so you can replicate that as well to try to get as close as possible to the original recipe. That's all I was getting at. [img']cool[/img]

+1

 

Absolutely.

 

You 'no-chillers' cause everyone else headaches when attempting to replicate recipes!

 

Buy a wort chiller you lazy, cheap b@$|*%&$ !!

 

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's not practical for me to chill my wort quickly as my brew days don't necessarily coincide with having the fermenter free, so 'no-chilling' works best.

 

....and apparently it annoys you a bit too so another good reason to keep doing it.

[porschemad911]

Thanks very much for the feedback Lusty, and Kelsey for reminding me about the importance of understanding the process that was combined with a recipe to achieve a given result. That information's often missing completely from recipes posted online but can significantly impact the results of a brew.

 

After considering your process Lusty, I reckon for no-chill I'll have to revise the hop schedule to a 60 minute addition, a 5 minute addition, a cube hop and a dry hop. Beersmith gives me the following for a 60 minute addition, a 5 minute addition and a whirlpool addition steeped for 60 minutes (I'd put these into the cube).

 

8.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 21.5 IBUs

5.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Boil 5.0 mi Hop 8 3.4 IBUs

5.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 9 8.6 IBUs

10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Hop 11 0.0 IBUs

 

I reckon Beersmith underestimates the IBU contribution of the 5 minute addition though. Unless the amount of alpha acid extracted in a 5 minute boil that will isomerize and then dissolve in the cube is very low, I would have thought it should be equal or higher to the IBU contribution of the cube hops.

 

I will have to do a bit of research into this, but I guess there would be 3 steps in the process:

• Alpha acids are separated from hop plant matter
  
• Alpha acids are isomerized into iso-alpha acids
  
• Iso-alpha acids are dissolved into solution
  

[porschemad911]

First off, I apologise for the long post. I'm off work today so have some rare spare time to look into this.

 

Ok from my reading so far (hopefully I interpreted it correctly - chemistry was by far my worst final year high school subject and I didn't touch it at uni), alpha acids are extracted from hop pellets very, very quickly once they are added to hot wort. This corresponds with my observation of pellets disintegrating almost instantly once added to the boil. These alpha acids have been extracted from the plant matter, but are not very soluble at this point. The alpha acids isomerize at a significant rate while the wort is above 79C (which for cubed wort I would think would be quite a while). Once isomerized, the iso-alpha acids are much more soluble, and would have plenty of time to go into solution while in the cube.

 

So my conclusion is: the IBU calculation in Beersmith for late boil hop additions is incorrect (lower than it should be), when the beer will be whirlpooled for a decent length of time or no-chilled.

 

So after reaching this conclusion, I was wondering how to work around it? Would adding an extra steep / whirlpool addition in Beersmith to capture the post-flameout IBU contribution from these hops do the trick? The problem with that is it would begin at the wrong time point on the isomerization over time curve. Would adding say 15 or 20 minutes to the addition therefore be better (ie calculating the IBUs as if it were a 20 or 25 minute addition rather than a 5 minute addition)?

 

Take the 5g Mosaic addition at 5 minutes remaining in the boil, for which Beersmith gives an estimate of 3.4 IBUs. If I shift the 5 minute addition to 20 minutes (+15 mins), Beersmith calculates it at 10.4 IBUs. If I shift the 5 minute addition to 25 minutes (+20 mins), Beersmith calculates it at 12 IBUs. So not a big difference. I enjoy bitterness, so I think I'll go with the 15 minute adjustment to boil hop additions and treat cube additions as a 30 minute whirlpool rather than a 60 minute whirlpool since my ~10 litre brew volumes will drop temperature faster than say a 25 litre batch.

 

Playing around with Beersmith gives the following to target ~35 IBUs with a 60 minute (adjusted to 75 minutes for calculation purposes), 5 minute (adjusted to 20 minutes for calculation purposes) and a cube addition (30 minute whirlpool for calculation purposes):

 

5.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 75.0 min Hop 7 14.0 IBUs

6.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Boil 20.0 m Hop 8 12.5 IBUs

7.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 9 9.3 IBUs

 

This reveals another potential problem. The quantities for the late hop additions are getting pretty small. I could be seriously lacking in flavour and aroma proportional to bitterness here!

 

An unconventional alternative would be to drop the Centennial bittering addition altogether, and boost the late Mosaic additions up. For example, if I up drop the Centennial addition and up the 5 minute Mosaic addition to 10g and up the cube addition to 10g I get ~34 IBUs as well:

 

10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Boil 20.0 m Hop 7 20.8 IBUs

10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 8 13.2 IBUs

 

The numbers add up, but could I really get enough bitterness from just doing a 5 minute and cube hop additions then no-chilling? I don't think I'm quite brave enough to try this! A more conventional approach would be to drop the 5 minute boil addition and just go for a 60 minute boil addition and a cube hop, which gives ~35 IBUs:

 

8.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 75.0 min Hop 7 22.5 IBUs

10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 8 13.2 IBUs

 

So I'm back to what I used to do, and what Ben10 is a big proponent of: a bittering addition and a flameout (cube) addition for flavour and aroma. I have been adding a 5 minute addition for the last couple of hoppier brews because I have heard that the short boil brings a different character to the beer. However I think it affects the bitterness / flavour / aroma balance a bit too much when no-chilling, so I think I will go back to the boil / cube hop schedule.

[porschemad911]

I guess the test for this will be Kelsey's Red Ale which I have just bottled. My recipe came to 33.9 IBUs in Beersmith, whereas once adjusted for no-chill, I get 52.1 IBUs. See which value it tastes closer to once carbonated I guess.

[Beerlust]

8.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 75.0 min Hop 7 22.5 IBUs

10.00 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.80 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 8 13.2 IBUs

Yep' date=' I reckon hop option 3 is the way to go, provided those no chill bitterness claims are accurate.

 

Don't forget to dry hop it as well. [img']wink[/img]

 

Good luck with the brew.

 

Lusty.

[porschemad911]

Thanks mate, yes definitely including the dry hop!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Well having brewed a number of batches of my red ale I can say with some certainty that it is nowhere near 52 IBUs. It may be a little higher than the 33 or whatever it is calculated in Beersmith, but not by that much. My original recipe is no-chilled, so with you doing exactly the same procedure, it should come out pretty much the same as mine does.

 

How much extra IBUs did it calculate by adjusting the bittering addition? My understanding of it is once you get out to those 60-90 minute boil times, there's bugger all difference. The idea of adjusting boil times to compensate for no-chill is primarily aimed at late hop additions. I've never bothered doing that at all and I can't say that I have noticed the massive increase in bitterness that is supposedly gonna happen by not chilling the wort quickly after flameout. This may be because I don't add a crapload of hops late, though. Usually I just go with a 20-25g addition about 5-10 mins from the end of boil. Or it could be that it doesn't increase bitterness as much as the theory would suggest. I dunno, but whatever the answer is, the best way to go about it to me is just to figure out what works best for you and your tastes and stick with that (unless trying to replicate a recipe of course).

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[porschemad911]

How much extra IBUs did it calculate by adjusting the bittering addition?

Minimal - the bittering addition went from 25.5 to 26.6 IBUs after adjusting from 60 minutes to 75 minutes. The 5 minute addition is where all the extra bitterness came from - it went from 8.4 IBUs to 25.5 IBUs after adjusting from 5 minutes to 20 minutes.

[Otto Von Blotto]

That makes sense. I wouldn't worry about adjusting times for bittering additions. The difference is that small it's not even worth worrying about.

 

It's a really tricky area to be honest. We know that the isomerisation occurs at and above around that 80C mark, but it wouldn't be to the same degree at say, 83 degrees as it would be at 97 or something. I would think that the further towards 80 it dropped from boiling, the less the effect would be. It seems highly unlikely that it would stay the same from boiling to 80C then just stop dead.

 

This makes it pretty difficult to work out how many IBUs these post boil additions really do add, as it would surely have to depend on how long it takes the wort to cool down below 80, and how much isomerisation is actually going on at any given temperature between 80 and boiling, which is impossible to know unless you've got a lab or something to measure it. As you say, a 10 litre batch is not going to take as long to cool down as a 25 litre batch, so the same scaled hop additions for each sized batch won't even produce the same outcome, in theory anyway.

 

My head hurts now.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[porschemad911]

Well having brewed a number of batches of my red ale I can say with some certainty that it is nowhere near 52 IBUs. It may be a little higher than the 33 or whatever it is calculated in Beersmith' date=' but not by that much. My original recipe is no-chilled, so with you doing exactly the same procedure, it should come out pretty much the same as mine does.[/quote']

G'day Kelsey, I hope you are enjoying a fine Friday evening! I am sneaking a taste of a young stubby of the red ale tonight. It's carbed up fine already, but it has turned out pretty bitter - definitely much closer to an American IPA level of bitterness than something like a Sierra Nevada pale ale. There's plenty of delicious hop flavour and aroma, but I think I might have to leave it for a month or so before trying the next one. There's some really nice malt flavours underneath so it should be good when it softens a bit and melds together!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hey John

Yep, just finished watching the footy, finishing off my last beer before bed - off to the rifle range tomorrow!

 

That's interesting that it's turned out quite bitter. I can't say I've noticed that on any batches of it that I have done, even when it's quite young. The flavours probably aren't properly melded, but to me the bitterness is more on an APA level than IPA. Then again, maybe our palates are different and we perceive relatively the same beer differently. I daresay a bit more time in the bottle to allow the flavours to meld and the bitterness to mellow a bit would help though. I've definitely noticed a good balance between the influence of the CaraAroma grain and the hop additions in my batches. These are the two flavours that stand out the most to me.

[porschemad911]

Well I now have all the ingredients for this one and will be brewing it shortly. The final recipe I'm going with is:

 

Grain

1000g Weyermann Pilsner Malt (4.0 EBC) 41.0%

530g Thomas Fawcett Floor Malted Maris Otter (5.7 EBC) 21.7%

325g Weyermann Munich I Malt (17.7 EBC) 13.3%

205g JWM Wheat Malt (3.5 EBC) 8.4%

191g Simpsons Medium Crystal Malt (150.0 EBC) 7.8%

125g Weyermann Carahell Malt (25.0 EBC) 5.1%

34g Simpsons Dark Crystal Malt (240.0 EBC) 1.4%

30g JWM Chocolate Malt (650.0 EBC) 1.2%

 

Hops

8.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 75.0 min 22.6 IBUs

10.00 g Mosaic [12.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 13.0 IBUs

10.00 g Mosaic [12.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days 0.0 IBUs

 

Yeast

Bedford British Ale (White Labs #WLP006)

 

Stats

Batch Size (fermenter): 10.50 l

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 %

Bitterness: 35.5 IBUs

Est Color: 29.9 EBC

 

I've adjusted the hop additions for no-chill - 75min recipe addition goes in at 60mins and the whirpool hops go in the cube. I hope I haven't buggered it up, but I've tried to find a way to incorporate my last 530g Maris Otter, 205g wheat malt and 34g dark crystal into it. Haha you must be sick of people who say they want to brew it and then come up with something a bit different! I'll give you plenty of credit when (not if!) it turns out well though

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Otto Von Blotto]

I wouldn't worry about changing the 75 minute addition. Once you get over that 50-60 minute boil time the increase in bitterness from longer times is negligible. I highly doubt it would even be noticeable in the finished beer. The whole adjusting hop addition times for no-chill thing is aimed at late additions as the difference between 5 and 25 minutes is quite a bit more than 60 and 75.

[porschemad911]

Yeah you're right Kelsey, it's single, lone IBU between the 60 minute and a 75 minute boil calculation. I'll just do it anyway for a consistent rule: +15mins for all boil hop calculations, cube additions calculated as a 30 minute whirlpool. If the next couple of beers come out under-bittered (as opposed the last few being a bit over-bittered) I'll tweak it again.