Infected Fermenters / Taps

[glivo]

I have 2 Cooper's FVs that appear to be infected.  Multiple successive brews in these 2 vessels have resulted in pellicle growth, despite rigorous cleaning and sanitising, using a variety of methods.  Other advice from different sources says that they are now rubbish.  I'm not willing to accept this just yet, but it does appear that this is possibly the case. 

I have 4 other style (airlocked) FVs with which I am having no issues (so it's not the water).  It is just these 2 Cooper's 3-part FVs, although I am not using the Krausen Kollar.  I have 2 different style taps on these FVs, one being the current Snap Tap and the other is I presume the older style with the black neoprene / rubber seals.  I have disassembled and cleaned them as much as is humanly possible.  These FVs used to be fine but now they throw infections at every use.  I've just ordered 2 replacement taps and I currently have the FVs soaking in sanitising solutions inside 60 litre plastic garbage bins.

While most of the beer taken from under the pellicles has been "still ok" to drink, I recently dumped 46 litres as it was clearly off.

Any advice on how to "clean" these FVs would be greatly appreciated.  Should I do as advised elsewhere and just throw them away?  These FVs are nowhere near as old as the other 4 I have that are causing no problems.  My oldest bucket style FVs are over 20 years old and do not give me any issues.

[Classic Brewing Co]

11 minutes ago, glivo said:

I have 2 Cooper's FVs that appear to be infected.  Multiple successive brews in these 2 vessels have resulted in pellicle growth, despite rigorous cleaning and sanitising, using a variety of methods.  Other advice from different sources says that they are now rubbish.  I'm not willing to accept this just yet, but it does appear that this is possibly the case. 

I have 4 other style (airlocked) FVs with which I am having no issues (so it's not the water).  It is just these 2 Cooper's 3-part FVs, although I am not using the Krausen Kollar.  I have 2 different style taps on these FVs, one being the current Snap Tap and the other is I presume the older style with the black neoprene / rubber seals.  I have disassembled and cleaned them as much as is humanly possible.  These FVs used to be fine but now they throw infections at every use.  I've just ordered 2 replacement taps and I currently have the FVs soaking in sanitising solutions inside 60 litre plastic garbage bins.

While most of the beer taken from under the pellicles has been "still ok" to drink, I recently dumped 46 litres as it was clearly off.

Any advice on how to "clean" these FVs would be greatly appreciated.  Should I do as advised elsewhere and just throw them away?  These FVs are nowhere near as old as the other 4 I have that are causing no problems.  My oldest bucket style FVs are over 20 years old and do not give me any issues.

Hi @glivo  Welcome to the forum.

I personally would chuck them, if you have cleaned, soaked & sanitised as much as you can & they are still infected I would say there are scratches inside the walls & are harboring nasties.

Even powerful bleach & other chemicals won't help if this is so. Others may have different views, but my vote is time for the bin.

[glivo]

27 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Hi @glivo  Welcome to the forum.

I personally would chuck them, if you have cleaned, soaked & sanitised as much as you can & they are still infected I would say there are scratches inside the walls & are harboring nasties.

Even powerful bleach & other chemicals won't help if this is so. Others may have different views, but my vote is time for the bin.

Thanks CBC.

The thing is that these 2 FVs are not visibly scratched up internally at all.  I have never used harsh abrasive scourers on them and only ever used the supplied plastic stirring spoon.  My two old bucket FVs have visible scratches after 20 years of use, and at one point my wife's horse scratched one up pretty badly inside with his teeth after I left it within his reach.  I have no problem with these 2 at all, or the 2 old Copper Tun barrel style FVs I own.  Only the 2 Coopers FVs, which are relatively new by comparison, are a problem.

My suspicion is the taps.  I've read that the taps are a known cause of problems with these FVs, but mainly due to leaking.   I always disassemble and clean and sanitise them immediately after and again before each use.  Before the last brews (pictured) I pulled them apart as much as I could, even removing the O-rings and pink bung rubber and soaked them in Starsan solution at near double strength.  The older style tap can't be disassembled as far as the Snap Tap, but it was pretty thoroughly sanitised having soaked for 48 hours.  The FVs and lids were fully immersed in diluted Bleach / Vinegar to required concentrations.  I have sprayed and soaked the FVs in Starsan at 2 ml / litre every time I use any of them.

I am in no hurry to throw them out and it would reflect poorly on Cooper's FVs should it come to that.  I will wait for the replacement taps to arrive and try again.  In the meantime, I have some concentrated food grade phosphoric acid that I will use at 0.5 ml / litre to create a soak bath for the FVs after they've sat in Bleach Vinegar solution for 48 hours again.

My other thought is to use my heat controlled Ultrasonic parts cleaner to give the taps a bit of a shake-up at elevated temperature.

The frustrating thing is that I know it isn't something I'm doing wrong because I have repeated and consistent success with my other FVs.  Again, it is just these 2 Cooper's FVs that are the problem.

[Classic Brewing Co]

38 minutes ago, glivo said:

Thanks CBC.

The thing is that these 2 FVs are not visibly scratched up internally at all.  I have never used harsh abrasive scourers on them and only ever used the supplied plastic stirring spoon.  My two old bucket FVs have visible scratches after 20 years of use, and at one point my wife's horse scratched one up pretty badly inside with his teeth after I left it within his reach.  I have no problem with these 2 at all, or the 2 old Copper Tun barrel style FVs I own.  Only the 2 Coopers FVs, which are relatively new by comparison, are a problem.

My suspicion is the taps.  I've read that the taps are a known cause of problems with these FVs, but mainly due to leaking.   I always disassemble and clean and sanitise them immediately after and again before each use.  Before the last brews (pictured) I pulled them apart as much as I could, even removing the O-rings and pink bung rubber and soaked them in Starsan solution at near double strength.  The older style tap can't be disassembled as far as the Snap Tap, but it was pretty thoroughly sanitised having soaked for 48 hours.  The FVs and lids were fully immersed in diluted Bleach / Vinegar to required concentrations.  I have sprayed and soaked the FVs in Starsan at 2 ml / litre every time I use any of them.

I am in no hurry to throw them out and it would reflect poorly on Cooper's FVs should it come to that.  I will wait for the replacement taps to arrive and try again.  In the meantime, I have some concentrated food grade phosphoric acid that I will use at 0.5 ml / litre to create a soak bath for the FVs after they've sat in Bleach Vinegar solution for 48 hours again.

My other thought is to use my heat controlled Ultrasonic parts cleaner to give the taps a bit of a shake-up at elevated temperature.

The frustrating thing is that I know it isn't something I'm doing wrong because I have repeated and consistent success with my other FVs.  Again, it is just these 2 Cooper's FVs that are the problem.

OK, well my suggestion was last resort, it sounds like you are on to the sanitary part of things, so you could just try again with new the taps to see if that helps.

I also have old pail type & Ambi style fermenters with airlocks that are very old, but they have always had the basic cleaning/sanitising routines.

[Shamus O'Sean]

5 hours ago, glivo said:

I have 2 Cooper's FVs that appear to be infected.  Multiple successive brews in these 2 vessels have resulted in pellicle growth, despite rigorous cleaning and sanitising, using a variety of methods.  Other advice from different sources says that they are now rubbish.  I'm not willing to accept this just yet, but it does appear that this is possibly the case. 

I have 4 other style (airlocked) FVs with which I am having no issues (so it's not the water).  It is just these 2 Cooper's 3-part FVs, although I am not using the Krausen Kollar.  I have 2 different style taps on these FVs, one being the current Snap Tap and the other is I presume the older style with the black neoprene / rubber seals.  I have disassembled and cleaned them as much as is humanly possible.  These FVs used to be fine but now they throw infections at every use.  I've just ordered 2 replacement taps and I currently have the FVs soaking in sanitising solutions inside 60 litre plastic garbage bins.

While most of the beer taken from under the pellicles has been "still ok" to drink, I recently dumped 46 litres as it was clearly off.

Any advice on how to "clean" these FVs would be greatly appreciated.  Should I do as advised elsewhere and just throw them away?  These FVs are nowhere near as old as the other 4 I have that are causing no problems.  My oldest bucket style FVs are over 20 years old and do not give me any issues.

You have already used a bleach soak, which is what I would have suggested.  Hopefully the new taps prove successful.

Another option is Iodophor - Iodine Sanitising Solution.

Otherwise, check your fermenting space.  If you can, give it a sanitise too.

[iBooz2]

52 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Otherwise, check your fermenting space.  If you can, give it a sanitise too.

Yes, that was what I was going to suggest as infection could be airborne in the FV enclosure.  I would give any FV fridges used a good clean out with a bleach solution as that's what I do with mine regularly.  Also flood the taps with sanitiser to clean out residue after taking samples too.

[iBooz2]

@glivo Welcome to the forum.  Sorry to hear about your repeated troubles.

 I use recycled containers as tap cleaners and soakers.  After the beer has been kegged, rinse out the FV with the garden hose and flush the tap.  I do not rub or try to wipe off any Krausen scum from the FV not even with fingers or a Chux's or the like.  If it does not come off with the garden hose it stays, there until the next step.

Next step is to put in two scoops of SP and fill the FV with hot tap water (my hot tap water is very hot as no tempering valve fitted to the HWS).  Once filled to the brim with hot water I get the lid and rotate it around like a water wheel to get the hot SP solution all over both surface areas (top and bottom of lid) and then I fit the lid as normal and then leave overnight or a few days depending on my timetable.  The Krausen scum will disappear with about an hour.

Next day dump the SP solution and give the FV several good rinses with the garden hose and finally another hot rinse or two using very hot tap water.

Remove the tap and disassemble including removing the "O" rings with a proper "O" ring picking tool.  I do not remove the red rubber tap hood at all.  Then drop the disassembled tap bits and "O" rings into the tub marked Tap Soaker SP with a teaspoon of SP and hot water.  Leave at least overnight and then it's rinsed with hot water and all bits dropped still disassembled into the tub marked Sanitiser Soaker and left there whilst I sanitise the FV within an inch of its life.  Re-assemble and fit the tap to the FV whilst it is still wet with sanitiser.  Note I also spray sanitiser up under the lip handle area all around the FV.

Edited February 25 by iBooz2

[kmar92]

From your explanations @glivo (no scratches in the FV's and a good cleaning and sanitising regime) I would also suspect the taps, even though you seem to go above and beyond in your care of them. I know that @iBooz2 suggested it could be an airborne infection but I personally doubt that as the Coopers FV's are well designed with that in mind and an active ferment also protects the wort and vessel with CO2 filling the airspace. There are plenty of brewers that still remember the days of fermenting in a plastic garbage can with cling wrap or even a tea towel over the top that didn't get any infections 

I would say give the FV's a try with the new taps that you have ordered and see how it goes.

[glivo]

Thanks guys.  I'm encouraged to push on.  As an optimist (sometimes) I don't like to give up on things, so I'm looking forward to receiving the new taps.  I feel it must be something specific to these fermenters since I don't have the problem with my air-locked FVs running parallel brews, sitting right next to them using the exact same water, ingredients and sanitation and procedures.   The standard barrel taps on these are harder to clean as they don't come apart, so I replace them with Bunnings ones fairly frequently.

I've now soaked the first Cooper's FV in a 50 litre bath of acidified bleach water for 2 days and it is presently in a soak of phosphoric acid solution.  The second one is now in the bleach soak, and it will follow into the phosphoric tomorrow.  That will be 96 hours of soaking in 2 different sterilizing solutions.   After this, weather permitting, I'll place them in direct sun for as long as I can.  My father, a home brewer for 60 + years, always swore (still does at 88) that the best sterilant was UV from the sun.  Hopefully the new taps will be here by the weekend.  The original taps are again disassembled and soaking in Starsan (actually StellarSan generic from HBS) at near double concentration, but if the new ones prove to be good, I think I'll just toss them (unless curiosity gets the better of me and I can't help myself).

Yesterday, I put down 2 more brews of brown ale in my 20 year old lidded bucket FVs.  Just for the point of being thorough, I did one with boiled water and one straight from the tap.  I'm using rain / tank water and water contamination has been mentioned elsewhere, although I've been using it without known issues for over 17 years now.  I don't anticipate any problem with either of them, but let's wait and see how they go.

[glivo]

New taps have arrived and FVs have been in sanitising soaks for 4 - 5 days.  Wish me luck.  Update to follow.

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 hour ago, glivo said:

New taps have arrived and FVs have been in sanitising soaks for 4 - 5 days.  Wish me luck.  Update to follow.

All the best mate, look forward to seeing the results.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

On 2/26/2024 at 9:04 AM, glivo said:

Thanks guys.  I'm encouraged to push on.  As an optimist (sometimes) I don't like to give up on things, so I'm looking forward to receiving the new taps.  I feel it must be something specific to these fermenters since I don't have the problem with my air-locked FVs running parallel brews, sitting right next to them using the exact same water, ingredients and sanitation and procedures.   The standard barrel taps on these are harder to clean as they don't come apart, so I replace them with Bunnings ones fairly frequently.

I've now soaked the first Cooper's FV in a 50 litre bath of acidified bleach water for 2 days and it is presently in a soak of phosphoric acid solution. 

If acidified bleach doesn't work then nothing will. From my research years ago it will kill any spore known to man.

[glivo]

 This is a confused face emoji, because I'm now confused.  50 % success / failure.  After extensive sanitising of the Cooper's FVs and installing new taps, I have the same infection on 1 FV and clear, clean beer in the other one.  Today is only day 5 so the good yeast is being outdone by wild strains (what, I have no idea) in very short time.  I have never had such as stubborn and repetitive problem.

Here are 2 photos of my 20 year old bucket FVs.  No problems at all, ever.  These were taken 2 days ago, immediately prior to bottling after 8 days fermentation.

[Shamus O'Sean]

16 minutes ago, glivo said:

 This is a confused face emoji, because I'm now confused.  50 % success / failure.  After extensive sanitising of the Cooper's FVs and installing new taps, I have the same infection on 1 FV and clear, clean beer in the other one.  Today is only day 5 so the good yeast is being outdone by wild strains (what, I have no idea) in very short time.  I have never had such as stubborn and repetitive problem.

Here are 2 photos of my 20 year old bucket FVs.  No problems at all, ever.  These were taken 2 days ago, immediately prior to bottling after 8 days fermentation.

Gee, that would be utterly frustrating.

Time to discard the FV with the persistent infection.  Plus the jury might still be out on the one that has not been infected this time around.

I had a pellicle in a Fermenter King Junior fermenter a while back.  After a sanitise with Idophor, it has not come back.  It also got into the keg that I put the brew into.  That keg also got an Idophor cleanse.

I cannot explain the source of your infections.  However, I doubt it is the Coopers Fermenter design.  Otherwise, you would think many people would have similar issues.  Nevertheless, the fact you get the infections in the Coopers fermenter(s) and not in sealed fermenting buckets is evidence in itself.  It also may say more about the resilience of the infection than of the Coopers fermenter design. 

[Classic Brewing Co]

On 2/25/2024 at 10:11 AM, Classic Brewing Co said:

Hi @glivo  Welcome to the forum.

I personally would chuck them, if you have cleaned, soaked & sanitised as much as you can & they are still infected I would say there are scratches inside the walls & are harboring nasties.

Even powerful bleach & other chemicals won't help if this is so. Others may have different views, but my vote is time for the bin.

Time to discard the FV with the persistent infection. 

Shamus, that's exactly what I said when it was first posted.

[Pale Man]

1 hour ago, glivo said:

 This is a confused face emoji, because I'm now confused.  50 % success / failure.  After extensive sanitising of the Cooper's FVs and installing new taps, I have the same infection on 1 FV and clear, clean beer in the other one.  Today is only day 5 so the good yeast is being outdone by wild strains (what, I have no idea) in very short time.  I have never had such as stubborn and repetitive problem.

Here are 2 photos of my 20 year old bucket FVs.  No problems at all, ever.  These were taken 2 days ago, immediately prior to bottling after 8 days fermentation.

I'm not sure what more advice you need. Dump the bloody thing, start from scratch. Brewing is not rocket science.

[Pale Man]

Nothing wrong with Coopers Fermenters. Ive used them for years. The only infected beer I've ever had was a cheapo with an air lock.

[Classic Brewing Co]

5 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

Nothing wrong with Coopers Fermenters. Ive used them for years. The only infected beer I've ever had was a cheapo with an air lock.

I agree, but if you keep getting infections why hang on to it, you can clean & sanitise all you like but I am damn sure I wouldn't hesitate, put it in the garden & grow some garlic it.

[Pale Man]

2 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I agree, but if you keep getting infections why hang on to it, you can clean & sanitise all you like but I am damn sure I wouldn't hesitate, put it in the garden & grow some garlic it.

Bottom line is what is going to cost more money? Infected wort after infected wort, or doice the fermenter and buy a new one?

This is also starting to sound like an attack on Coopers Fermenters. I'm sure this dude post the same thing on Aussie Home Brew forum.

[Classic Brewing Co]

2 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

Bottom line is what is going to cost more money? Infected wort after infected wort, or doice the fermenter and buy a new one?

This is also starting to sound like an attack on Coopers Fermenters. I'm sure this dude post the same thing on Aussie Home Brew forum.

IMO Coopers FV's are probably better & more hygienic than anything with an airlock apart from the more expensive SS versions.

They have fewer working parts & a hell of a lot easier to clean than a screw on lid, so it must be the said FV - it's cattled, chuck it.

[Pale Man]

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/coopers-new-style-fermenters.104874/page-2#post-1585040

[glivo]

1 hour ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Time to discard the FV with the persistent infection. 

Shamus, that's exactly what I said when it was first posted.

 I tend to think you were on the money.  It is amazing that this thing can hang on after the treatment I've given it over the last few weeks.

And yes, Pale Man, I did start to post first over there on AHB before I started this thread here.  I posted here as it is a Cooper's site and I had hoped there would be some more informed advice.  Apparently not.  It isn't an attack on Cooper's FVs.  I used them successfully, but I just find it odd that I have no issues with 4 other air-locked fermenters and these 2 are causing me grief.

I have 6 fermenters, in 3 different "brand / style".  2 are Coopers, 2 are Copper Tun and 2 are generic buckets.  My use of the Cooper's word is for description and differentiation only.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.  All else being equal, how would you explain this fact that only those 2 FVs are causing infections?

Edited March 3 by glivo

[kmar92]

7 minutes ago, glivo said:

 I tend to think you were on the money.  It is amazing that this thing can hang on after the treatment I've given it over the last few weeks.

And yes, Pale Man, I did start to post first over there on AHB before I started this thread here.  I posted here as it is a Cooper's site and I had hoped there would be some more informed advice.  Apparently not.  It isn't an attack on Cooper's FVs.  I used them successfully, but I just find it odd that I have no issues with 4 other air-locked fermenters and these 2 are causing me grief.

I am sorry to hear that the problem has happened again, with the cleaning and sanitising methods that you have used and after using new taps, it must be some really resistant form of microbes. Yep probably time to admit defeat and get rid of the fermenters. It is a perplexing problem though, I have used multiple Coopers fermenters over the years and never had any problems so it is strange that you have had the persistent infection in just the Coopers FV's and not your others.

BTW it is not a problem to post your question on multiple forums seeking advice, the more minds asked the better the solutions offered.

[iBooz2]

1 hour ago, Pale Man said:

Bottom line is what is going to cost more money? Infected wort after infected wort, or doice the fermenter and buy a new one?

Could also buy new Coopers FV's and still have the problem. 

Way back when I mentioned "airborne" I was thinking his brewing environment as the lids are not on them all the time.  He has to mix and stir the wort to start with etc. plenty of time for dragons to come if this is done in the wrong spot plus if CO2 can get out dust could get in.   Also, if he dry hops.

@glivo mentioned a horse.  I am thinking a dusty farm or acreage environment and imagine wild microbes riding around on dust particles like alien organisms on asteroids.

Where do you mix and brew and ferment your beers.?  Can you describe it a bit better?  If it is what I think it is, you might be better off with some extra sealed FV's.

Sorry to hear of this on-going humbug.  I have never had an infection in either of my Coopers FV's but then again, I will not brew on windy days.

Good luck with your decision and future beers.

[Triple B Brewing]

3 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Could also buy new Coopers FV's and still have the problem. 

Way back when I mentioned "airborne" I was thinking his brewing environment as the lids are not on them all the time.  He has to mix and stir the wort to start with etc. plenty of time for dragons to come if this is done in the wrong spot plus if CO2 can get out dust could get in.   Also, if he dry hops.

@glivo mentioned a horse.  I am thinking a dusty farm or acreage environment and imagine wild microbes riding around on dust particles like alien organisms on asteroids.

Where do you mix and brew and ferment your beers.?  Can you describe it a bit better?  If it is what I think it is, you might be better off with some extra sealed FV's.

Sorry to hear of this on-going humbug.  I have never had an infection in either of my Coopers FV's but then again, I will not brew on windy days.

Good luck with your decision and future beers.

Well said @iBooz2, I’m personally thinkin the same could be the issue, which as you say is why the closed fermenters with airlocks are “holding up” better. 
Let us know a little more about your mixing, fermentation location @glivo