Infected Fermenters / Taps

[kmar92]

13 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Could also buy new Coopers FV's and still have the problem. 

Way back when I mentioned "airborne" I was thinking his brewing environment as the lids are not on them all the time.  He has to mix and stir the wort to start with etc. plenty of time for dragons to come if this is done in the wrong spot plus if CO2 can get out dust could get in.   Also, if he dry hops.

@glivo mentioned a horse.  I am thinking a dusty farm or acreage environment and imagine wild microbes riding around on dust particles like alien organisms on asteroids.

Where do you mix and brew and ferment your beers.?  Can you describe it a bit better?  If it is what I think it is, you might be better off with some extra sealed FV's.

Sorry to hear of this on-going humbug.  I have never had an infection in either of my Coopers FV's but then again, I will not brew on windy days.

Good luck with your decision and future beers.

I would be guessing that @glivo does his mixing, stirring and pitching of yeast in the same location each brew, so I would wonder why his other 4 FV's have not had the same infection. If as @iBooz2 said originally there was some infection in the ferment fridge (if he uses one) I guess then maybe it could be airborne, even though I doubted that originally. What I do not understand, that even after nuking the FV's he still has the persistent infection.

Whilst I have been doubtful of the airborne route of infection, the difference between @glivo FV's is that the Coopers FV's are not sealed. As home brewers it is impossible to achieve a sterile fermenting environment, we can only sanitise as much as possible and allow the yeast to have an environment where it out-competes unwanted microbes.

[Triple B Brewing]

34 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

I would be guessing that @glivo does his mixing, stirring and pitching of yeast in the same location each brew, so I would wonder why his other 4 FV's have not had the same infection. If as @iBooz2 said originally there was some infection in the ferment fridge (if he uses one) I guess then maybe it could be airborne, even though I doubted that originally. What I do not understand, that even after nuking the FV's he still has the persistent infection.

Whilst I have been doubtful of the airborne route of infection, the difference between @glivo FV's is that the Coopers FV's are not sealed. As home brewers it is impossible to achieve a sterile fermenting environment, we can only sanitise as much as possible and allow the yeast to have an environment where it out-competes unwanted microbes.

Hey @kmar92 Now I know that we all are likely to know the following, but just so I can type it out (and try and make some sense of it myself), I offer the following...

OK, firstly, let me say I'm gonna reach out beyond my factual knowledge on Coopers FV's here, so just guessin',  but my understanding is the Coopers FV work based on the generation of CO2 during fermentation.

That is; as CO2 is produced by fermentation and that gas is heavier than air, the CO2 forms a type of protective blanket (if you will) of CO2 gas on top of the fermenting wort which protects it from oxygen.  And if my understanding is correct, the Coopers FV design relies on the fermentation process to produces enough of a positive pressure atmosphere inside the FV during fermentation to help protect the fermenting wort from airborne unwanted's. So, IF that is all correct (and I do mean "IF"), then as long as there is no "unwanted's" entered at the point of mixing and or set up and that "blanket of CO2 is not violently disturbed or lost completely during fermentation, then the fermenting wort should be protected. 

The sealed FV's on the other hand are exactly that, sealed and the use of an airlock is necessary to allow the pressure build up (CO2) to be released via a water barrier within the airlock (again, using positive pressure to protect the fermenting environment). The point here is I suspect, that these sealed FV's may provide a little more physical barrier from the broader fermentation environment than the Coopers FV's. 

As we know, you can ferment in an open bucket if you like, but then your getting into the unknown wild yeast farmyard style of brewing.

So by working on elimination and examining what we do know, it seems fair (at lest at this stage) to better understand what and how @glivo's brewing environment is like as this may hold the answer as to why only the Coopers FV's are being infected.

WOAH, I gotta get a beer (or 3) after all that thinkin' my head hurts   

Righto, over to you @glivo

[kmar92]

30 minutes ago, Triple B Brewing said:

Hey @kmar92 Now I know that we all are likely to know the following, but just so I can type it out (and try and make some sense of it myself), I offer the following...

OK, firstly, let me say I'm gonna reach out beyond my factual knowledge on Coopers FV's here, so just guessin',  but my understanding is the Coopers FV work based on the generation of CO2 during fermentation.

That is; as CO2 is produced by fermentation and that gas is heavier than air, the CO2 forms a type of protective blanket (if you will) of CO2 gas on top of the fermenting wort which protects it from oxygen.  And if my understanding is correct, the Coopers FV design relies on the fermentation process to produces enough of a positive pressure atmosphere inside the FV during fermentation to help protect the fermenting wort from airborne unwanted's. So, IF that is all correct (and I do mean "IF"), then as long as there is no "unwanted's" entered at the point of mixing and or set up and that "blanket of CO2 is not violently disturbed or lost completely during fermentation, then the fermenting wort should be protected. 

The sealed FV's on the other hand are exactly that, sealed and the use of an airlock is necessary to allow the pressure build up (CO2) to be released via a water barrier within the airlock (again, using positive pressure to protect the fermenting environment). The point here is I suspect, that these sealed FV's may provide a little more physical barrier from the broader fermentation environment than the Coopers FV's. 

As we know, you can ferment in an open bucket if you like, but then your getting into the unknown wild yeast farmyard style of brewing.

So by working on elimination and examining what we do know, it seems fair (at lest at this stage) to better understand what and how @glivo's brewing environment is like as this may hold the answer as to why only the Coopers FV's are being infected.

WOAH, I gotta get a beer (or 3) after all that thinkin' my head hurts   

Righto, over to you @glivo

I reckon that you have summarized it very well @Triple B Brewing.

Fresh wort is the most vulnerable stage of brewing to an infection as it contains so much of the sugar compounds that yeast, and all the other unwanted microbes, love to consume so the most vulnerable part of brewing to an infection is the initial part of the ferment before, during and after pitching yeast. After our wanted type of yeast fires up and starts producing CO2 then the wort has a protective blanket of CO2 that helps to protect it from unwanted microbes and oxygen, and also as you point out the FV has a positive pressure that helps to keep out the unwanted stuff. So really Cooper's FV's v other types are pretty similar and both are susceptible to airborne infections in the early stages of the ferment and mixing, pitching etc. The sealed type FV's, in my opinion, really should not provide more protection during the ferment than a Cooper's FV as both will have a positive pressure and inhibit any outside air getting into the FV with unwanted microbes. I thought with @glivo problem may have been more due to some unwanted microbes getting into his brew at some stage and then holding out in the taps (the Cooper's taps are a potential microbe trap), but he has replaced the taps and nuked the fermenters.

 

[Triple B Brewing]

3 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

I reckon that you have summarized it very well @Triple B Brewing.

Fresh wort is the most vulnerable stage of brewing to an infection as it contains so much of the sugar compounds that yeast, and all the other unwanted microbes, love to consume so the most vulnerable part of brewing to an infection is the initial part of the ferment before, during and after pitching yeast. After our wanted type of yeast fires up and starts producing CO2 then the wort has a protective blanket of CO2 that helps to protect it from unwanted microbes and oxygen, and also as you point out the FV has a positive pressure that helps to keep out the unwanted stuff. So really Cooper's FV's v other types are pretty similar and both are susceptible to airborne infections in the early stages of the ferment and mixing, pitching etc. The sealed type FV's, in my opinion, really should not provide more protection during the ferment than a Cooper's FV as both will have a positive pressure and inhibit any outside air getting into the FV with unwanted microbes. I thought with @glivo problem may have been more due to some unwanted microbes getting into his brew at some stage and then holding out in the taps (the Cooper's taps are a potential microbe trap), but he has replaced the taps and nuked the fermenters.

 

Yeeeerrrp, that makes sense @kmar92 - so we're runnin' out of logical options here eh - lets see if @glivo can shed some light on his processes and environment during the "most vulnerable stages" as you so eloquently put it   - I'm thinkin' that's gotta have somfin' to do with it 

Cheers ta cold (uninfected) beers I say      

[glivo]

My apology for not responding last night.  I was watching Dopesick Season 1 on SBS On Demand.  I am heartened and grateful for the amount of interest this thread received last night.

First up the horse? 15 years ago, one of my lidded bucket (generic) FVs was left out in the sun within reach of my wife's horse after I'd rinsed it upon racking a batch of Apple Cider.  Old boy decided to pull it over the fence, put his head in and scratch up the bottom of the FV with his teeth.  I was concerned it was ruined but it has proven to me that good sanitation can overcome quite severe physical scratching.  I'm still using it today along with the other one and it is pictured above with "good" beer just last week.  The FVs in question are not scratched up at all.

Second, I brew using kit malt extract concentrations.  I've done AG in the past but just don't anymore.  I use various brands and I mix and match.  I sometimes use full kilo brew blend sugars for full strength beer, but I usually use only either 250g or 330g or 500g to make Low ABV beer for myself.  I'd consider them to be in the range of Light beer to Mid-Strength.  I started making lighter beers when I was on OxyContin for pain, from about 20 to 15 years ago (see above Dopesick).  Yep, I was on it for 5 years and up to 160mg per day + Endone for breakthrough pain.

Third, I have a dedicated area in my shed which is fitted out using recycled kitchen cabinets and benchtops, an island workbench, fermentation fridge, shelves, cooktop, sink etc, etc.  It is not hermetically sealed or surgical grade made from stainless steel and white subway tiles, but it is a relatively clean environment, and it is what it is.  It is fairly new as I've recently had to relocate my brewery area from my big steel shed to the smaller shed at the opposite end to the property.  There are presently no horses using the stable area which is adjacent.  I believe this is irrelevant anyway, but more on that in a moment.  The point is that I can make good beer quite successfully in this environment and this problem first occurred just before I relocated.

And lastly, my process is fast. I've become very good at performing a streamlined, repetitive approach to kit assembly and I have everything ready and prepared, sanitised etc in advance.  I do last minute sanitation (Stellar San) immediately prior to adding ingredients and keep vessels covered as much as is physically possible considering the need to remove lids to add ingredients.  The thing is, I make sure there are no distractions or fumbling around searching for stuff.  Clockwork.  I can put down 4 X 23 litre FVs in under an hour including warming the cans and boiling sufficient water.

I appreciate the desire to know what I do and where and how, but I don't think any of this is relevant.  This is for the simple reason that I use the same location, processes and materials for all of my fermentation using 6 different FVs.  My equipment is the same for all of my procedures and fermentation with the exception being the different FVs.  All else is constant and unchanging.

So, the most obvious difference is air-locked Vs not ie; the Coopers Fvs.  Airborne nasties have been mentioned, but all of my FVs, while in production, are exposed to the same level before the lid is finally placed after pitching yeast.  Additionally, I always cover my FVs when they are fermenting.  I'm not presently using the fridge because I have 2, 4 or 6 going at a time and the fridge fits only 1.  However, I've measured my ambient temperatures in the shed (even really hot days) and when my FVs are on the south wall and covered, I am maintaining a good stable temperature within acceptable range for the yeast I'm using.  I cover these 2 Coopers FVs with a promotional XXXX beach mat, which is a plastic lined towel. This insulates and protects them (*pictured below in use for this current batch).  This would also serve to keep airborne nasties away from the lid seams.

So, in a nutshell, everything is constant and my 6 FVs are being used in exactly the same way.  I've only had infection issues with the 2 in question, and now to confuse the issue even further, I have only 1 with infection after putting both through the exact same "nuking" processes and replacing the taps with 2 brand new ones.

My latest consideration!!!  This problem started when, or at least after, I stopped using the Krausen Kollars.  I can't say with any certainty that it coincided with this, but I'm now wondering if the design of these FVs requires the use of the KK. The KK protrudes down the inside of the FV below the wort surface so there is a liquid "seal / airlock" down between the mating surfaces.  It also provides an additional 2" (50mm) of headspace above the surface of the wort / beer which would provide a thicker layer of CO2.  Just a thought and I doubt it is responsible.  The infection is either in the FV when I put the lid on or it's getting in through the non-airtight lid seam.  I don't open the lid prior to bottling day.

Anyway, that's about it.   I'm sorry if anyone found it boring (Pale Man) but I hate conundrums, and to me this should not be happening without an explanation.  I'm a scientific and methodical person by nature and this is just weird.

 

Edited March 3 by glivo

[Triple B Brewing]

2 hours ago, glivo said:

My apology for not responding last night.  I was watching Dopesick Season 1 on SBS On Demand.  I am heartened and grateful for the amount of interest this thread received last night.

First up the horse? 15 years ago, one of my lidded bucket (generic) FVs was left out in the sun within reach of my wife's horse after I'd rinsed it upon racking a batch of Apple Cider.  Old boy decided to pull it over the fence, put his head in and scratch up the bottom of the FV with his teeth.  I was concerned it was ruined but it has proven to me that good sanitation can overcome quite severe physical scratching.  I'm still using it today along with the other one and it is pictured above with "good" beer just last week.  The FVs in question are not scratched up at all.

Second, I brew using kit malt extract concentrations.  I've done AG in the past but just don't anymore.  I use various brands and I mix and match.  I sometimes use full kilo brew blend sugars for full strength beer, but I usually use only either 250g or 330g or 500g to make Low ABV beer for myself.  I'd consider them to be in the range of Light beer to Mid-Strength.  I started making lighter beers when I was on OxyContin for pain, from about 20 to 15 years ago (see above Dopesick).  Yep, I was on it for 5 years and up to 160mg per day + Endone for breakthrough pain.

Third, I have a dedicated area in my shed which is fitted out using recycled kitchen cabinets and benchtops, an island workbench, fermentation fridge, shelves, cooktop, sink etc, etc.  It is not hermetically sealed or surgical grade made from stainless steel and white subway tiles, but it is a relatively clean environment, and it is what it is.  It is fairly new as I've recently had to relocate my brewery area from my big steel shed to the smaller shed at the opposite end to the property.  There are presently no horses using the stable area which is adjacent.  I believe this is irrelevant anyway, but more on that in a moment.  The point is that I can make good beer quite successfully in this environment and this problem first occurred just before I relocated.

And lastly, my process is fast. I've become very good at performing a streamlined, repetitive approach to kit assembly and I have everything ready and prepared, sanitised etc in advance.  I do last minute sanitation (Stellar San) immediately prior to adding ingredients and keep vessels covered as much as is physically possible considering the need to remove lids to add ingredients.  The thing is, I make sure there are no distractions or fumbling around searching for stuff.  Clockwork.  I can put down 4 X 23 litre FVs in under an hour including warming the cans and boiling sufficient water.

I appreciate the desire to know what I do and where and how, but I don't think any of this is relevant.  This is for the simple reason that I use the same location, processes and materials for all of my fermentation using 6 different FVs.  My equipment is the same for all of my procedures and fermentation with the exception being the different FVs.  All else is constant and unchanging.

So, the most obvious difference is air-locked Vs not ie; the Coopers Fvs.  Airborne nasties have been mentioned, but all of my FVs, while in production, are exposed to the same level before the lid is finally placed after pitching yeast.  Additionally, I always cover my FVs when they are fermenting.  I'm not presently using the fridge because I have 2, 4 or 6 going at a time and the fridge fits only 1.  However, I've measured my ambient temperatures in the shed (even really hot days) and when my FVs are on the south wall and covered, I am maintaining a good stable temperature within acceptable range for the yeast I'm using.  I cover these 2 Coopers FVs with a promotional XXXX beach mat, which is a plastic lined towel. This insulates and protects them (*pictured below in use for this current batch).  This would also serve to keep airborne nasties away from the lid seams.

So, in a nutshell, everything is constant and my 6 FVs are being used in exactly the same way.  I've only had infection issues with the 2 in question, and now to confuse the issue even further, I have only 1 with infection after putting both through the exact same "nuking" processes and replacing the taps with 2 brand new ones.

My latest consideration!!!  This problem started when, or at least after, I stopped using the Krausen Kollars.  I can't say with any certainty that it coincided with this, but I'm now wondering if the design of these FVs requires the use of the KK. The KK protrudes down the inside of the FV below the wort surface so there is a liquid "seal / airlock" down between the mating surfaces.  It also provides an additional 2" (50mm) of headspace above the surface of the wort / beer which would provide a thicker layer of CO2.  Just a thought and I doubt it is responsible.  The infection is either in the FV when I put the lid on or it's getting in through the non-airtight lid seam.  I don't open the lid prior to bottling day.

Anyway, that's about it.   I'm sorry if anyone found it boring (Pale Man) but I hate conundrums, and to me this should not be happening without an explanation.  I'm a scientific and methodical person by nature and this is just weird.

 

Firstly can I say thanks for the detail you have provided and I hope you have been able to find some suitable solutions to your pain management, just horrendous the background on oxy’s now being released. 
After all the detail you have provided, I’ve got nothin else to offer - sorry @glivo I’m a bit like you, I need a rational answer to things and I’ve run out of ideas or areas to look into - just maybe the KK hold the key and worth refitting to eliminate as a cause

Wishing you well and hoping the cause comes to light sooner rather than later for you 

Cheers

[iBooz2]

@glivo, a big thanks for giving us so much detail and like you and @Triple B Brewing I like to solve problems having been a troubleshooter all my life with infinite patience.

You may be onto something re the KK but now I suspect the infection may in fact be coming from that beach towel draped over the top of the Coopers FV.   A perfect place to harbor nasties as lots of surface areas.  I would be hot washing it, UV drying it and then soaking it in sanitiser before applying it to that job.   Alo it would give tiny creatures a good foot hold to climb up and sneak into the FV to investigate.  Tiny ants come to mind and the further North you are the smaller these buggers are.  Up in the tropics I call them nano ants as the as so small they are hard to spot and so prolific.  They can infest a pantry overnight up that way.

I have a problem with cockroaches in my brewery.  They love the smell of the fresh mashed and boiled wort, and I am sure on brew days and over the next couple of days they come from outside in my Bali Garden and also from as far away as my neighbours to try and have a feed.  All around any entrance points I have surface spray to stop them in their tracks.  So far, I have been able to exterminate the lot and also so far so good, no infected brews.

I am just thinking aloud here and trying to help solve this dilemma.

Edited March 4 by iBooz2

[Triple B Brewing]

30 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

@glivo, a big thanks for giving us so much detail and like you and @Triple B Brewing I like to solve problems having been a troubleshooter all my life with infinite patience.

You may be onto something re the KK but now I suspect the infection may in fact be coming from that beach towel draped over the top of the Coopers FV.   A perfect place to harbor nasties as lots of surface areas.  I would be hot washing it, UV drying it and then soaking it in sanitiser before applying it to that job.   Alo it would give tiny creatures a good foot hold to climb up and sneak into the FV to investigate.  Tiny ants come to mind and the further North you are the smaller these buggers are.  Up in the tropics I call them nano ants as the as so small they are hard to spot and so prolific.  They can infest a pantry overnight up that way.

I have a problem with cockroaches in my brewery.  They love the smell of the fresh mashed and boiled wort, and I am sure on brew days and over the next couple of days they come from outside in my Bali Garden and also from as far away as my neighbours to try and have a feed.  All around any entrance points I have surface spray to stop them in their tracks.  So far, I have been able to exterminate the lot and also so far so good, no infected brews.

I am just thinking aloud here and trying to help solve this dilemma.

Yep, I gotta admit, the insulating beach towel also got me thinking along the same lines @iBooz2,

OK @glivo, I'M BACK IN  How about this as two final strategies for ya.

1st: maybe use the KK and see if that makes a difference, if that doesn't do it, then;

2nd: just leave the insulating beach towel off for a brew and see what that outcome is - nothin' to lose right 

Good hunting !   

[glivo]

On 3/3/2024 at 4:14 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Plus the jury might still be out on the one that has not been infected this time around.

Not anymore, Shamus.!  24 hours after the first one, it now also has the early stages of infection, but I must have knocked it a bit.  It is much weaker than the first FV and arrived later, whereas previously they have always been pretty much synchronised.

I doubt very much if the beach mat is in any way related.  It has been regularly soaked in Napisan, washed and dried in the sun along with all of my tea-towels, drying mats, etc.  I remain convinced it is the FVs themselves and I've now positively excluded the taps.  I have no idea why I can't sanitise undamaged, clean and relatively new plastic FVs designed for repetitive home brew use.

I have just put 4 brews in my airlocked FVs.  I predict no issue with them as usual, but I'll need to wait and see.

There are several options.   I could try one FV alone in the climate-controlled, sealed fermentation fridge.  I could use the Krausen Kollars again.  I could do a brew in a totally different location, like in the house.  I can try different chemicals like Sodium Met or Iodophor to see if they kill it or use more concentrated soaks of what I've already used.  Or the smart option is I could just toss them and call them as duds.  I know what I should do, but I'm a stubborn old fool and I hate things getting the better of me, to a point.

[Beerdo]

@glivo This must be bloody frustrating. I'm sorry but I don't have anything for you apart from empathy. Good luck finding a solution.

[iBooz2]

37 minutes ago, glivo said:

I doubt very much if the beach mat is in any way related.  It has been regularly soaked in Napisan, washed and dried in the sun along with all of my tea-towels, drying mats, etc.  I remain convinced it is the FVs themselves and I've now positively excluded the taps.  I have no idea why I can't sanitise undamaged, clean and relatively new plastic FVs designed for repetitive home brew use.

Gee @glivo, that is so frustrating for you.  The beach mat, just like the FV's and the immediate environment are still all common denominators to the problem.  If it was me, I would clean up one of the Coopers FV as per your normal routine but then thoroughly hit it with iodophor sanitiser in the proper dilution in every nook and cranny as well as underneath and use a new spray bottle for this.  Do this inside the house and well away from your current environment, do it all inside your house then do a brew in there too.  Loose the beach matt and leave that in the shed.  Don't cover the FV with anything, I don't here.

Edited March 4 by iBooz2

[Triple B Brewing]

40 minutes ago, glivo said:

Not anymore, Shamus.!  24 hours after the first one, it now also has the early stages of infection, but I must have knocked it a bit.  It is much weaker than the first FV and arrived later, whereas previously they have always been pretty much synchronised.

I doubt very much if the beach mat is in any way related.  It has been regularly soaked in Napisan, washed and dried in the sun along with all of my tea-towels, drying mats, etc.  I remain convinced it is the FVs themselves and I've now positively excluded the taps.  I have no idea why I can't sanitise undamaged, clean and relatively new plastic FVs designed for repetitive home brew use.

I have just put 4 brews in my airlocked FVs.  I predict no issue with them as usual, but I'll need to wait and see.

There are several options.   I could try one FV alone in the climate-controlled, sealed fermentation fridge.  I could use the Krausen Kollars again.  I could do a brew in a totally different location, like in the house.  I can try different chemicals like Sodium Met or Iodophor to see if they kill it or use more concentrated soaks of what I've already used.  Or the smart option is I could just toss them and call them as duds.  I know what I should do, but I'm a stubborn old fool and I hate things getting the better of me, to a point.

DANG !! 

[Shamus O'Sean]

5 hours ago, glivo said:

Not anymore, Shamus.!  24 hours after the first one, it now also has the early stages of infection, but I must have knocked it a bit.  It is much weaker than the first FV and arrived later, whereas previously they have always been pretty much synchronised.

I doubt very much if the beach mat is in any way related.  It has been regularly soaked in Napisan, washed and dried in the sun along with all of my tea-towels, drying mats, etc.  I remain convinced it is the FVs themselves and I've now positively excluded the taps.  I have no idea why I can't sanitise undamaged, clean and relatively new plastic FVs designed for repetitive home brew use.

I have just put 4 brews in my airlocked FVs.  I predict no issue with them as usual, but I'll need to wait and see.

There are several options.   I could try one FV alone in the climate-controlled, sealed fermentation fridge.  I could use the Krausen Kollars again.  I could do a brew in a totally different location, like in the house.  I can try different chemicals like Sodium Met or Iodophor to see if they kill it or use more concentrated soaks of what I've already used.  Or the smart option is I could just toss them and call them as duds.  I know what I should do, but I'm a stubborn old fool and I hate things getting the better of me, to a point.

BUGG3R!!

I do not recall if you have said exactly how old the Coopers FV's are.  I think you said they were "newer".  I wonder if @Coopers DIY Beer Team has any suggestions.  

[Triple B Brewing]

2 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

BUGG3R!!

I do not recall if you have said exactly how old the Coopers FV's are.  I think you said they were "newer".  I wonder if @Coopers DIY Beer Team has any suggestions.  

Good move Shamus - hopefully the brains trust have some insight What’re ya thoughts Frank ?

[glivo]

I can't say how old they are exactly. I have owned them for approximately 2 years and 18 months respectively, having picked them up 2nd hand from 2 different guys who'd barely used them.  One is clearly older as it had the older style tap.  The newer one had been used only twice when I bought it and 60 Coopers PET bottles, used only 1 time each.  It came in its original box with the complete kit, which I still have. When I say they are relatively new, it is in comparison to my 20 year old FVs.  However, both of these FVs were in what I would have said was 'as new' condition when I bought them, having had barely any use by previous owners.  They are still undamaged and have no visible scratching or obvious areas of possible contamination.

It is difficult to believe that they can't be cleaned, but so far, my efforts have failed.

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, glivo said:

I can't say how old they are exactly. I have owned them for approximately 2 years and 18 months respectively, having picked them up 2nd hand from 2 different guys who'd barely used them.  One is clearly older as it had the older style tap.  The newer one had been used only twice when I bought it and 60 Coopers PET bottles, used only 1 time each.  It came in its original box with the complete kit, which I still have. When I say they are relatively new, it is in comparison to my 20 year old FVs.  However, both of these FVs were in what I would have said was 'as new' condition when I bought them, having had barely any use by previous owners.  They are still undamaged and have no visible scratching or obvious areas of possible contamination.

It is difficult to believe that they can't be cleaned, but so far, my efforts have failed.

Dang!  Probably well out of warranty at that age.

[glivo]

Oh, for sure, and I wouldn't expect warranty cover for this issue.  I bought them 2nd hand anyway.  However, it would be great to know of how this can even occur., or better yet, how to overcome it.  I have only ever needed to discard 1 FV in over 40 years of brewing and that was my original old black plastic carboy.  After sitting unused for quite a while, it just wouldn't "clean up" when I tried to use it again.

[Coopers DIY Beer Team]

A few questions for you glivo.

What were these brews and what were the BB dates on the base of the cans? 

What temperature are you fermenting your beer at? (Do you have temperature control?)

How long were the brews in the fermenters when these pellicles formed? 

Cheers, Frank.

[glivo]

The brews I've been making have mainly been 50/50 mix of Coopers Dark Ale and either Coopers Lager or WW Home Brand Lager with 500g of BE2 (or similar) in each FV.  (* See additional info below).

All cans have been or are still "in date" with the WW cans I still have, up to end 2024.  I'd have to check the Dark Ale dates on the ones I still have, but I only bought them in Jan 2024 from Big W.

I do have a single FV temp controlled fridge, but all affected brews have been fermented in ambient room at around 22-24'C.

This most recent double batch showed pellicle at day 4 and 5, however they are usually synchronous.  Perhaps my significant attempt at sanitising them over the full week just prior had some affect moreso on one over the other.

* Additional info. The same brew in my other FVs are fine (see photos above).  If beer is taken off from under the pellicle early enough, it bottles and conditions with no bad taste, however, if left for more than a couple of days, 1 or 2, it sours terribly.  I've drained 2 FVs just recently, which I'd been unable to get to until day 10.  The first time I noticed any issue with these 2 FVs was a double batch of Coopers Mexican Cerveza about 6 months ago (in date).  This was before I relocated to my present brewing environment.  I'll look up the time in my notes.  So there has been a problem with just these 2 FVs for a while.

Edit: First problem was a Mexican Cerveza and Canadian Blonde in May 2023. Details on AHB (Bad batches or my mistake). At that time, I probably got away with a Cooper's Real Ale and a Dark Ale as well.  I hadn't connected the issues over that time frame.

Edited March 5 by glivo

[glivo]

Update:  I've just realised that this infection with only these 2 FVs actually started back in May 2023.  For a variety of reasons, I never connected the current infection issues with the problems I first encountered back then.  I had an unknown problem, which I discussed on AHB forum, but until today I didn't associate this with these 2 FVs.  Luckily for me, in that forum thread I did note that I was using them, and I can now say it was the same issue.

Anyway, probably quite stupidly, I haven't conceded defeat just yet. 

I have Sodium Metabisulfite powder here, so yesterday I gave the FVs several good washdowns, inside and out with a solution of it over the space of an hour, followed by an immersion rinse in fresh cold water. 

I went to the HBS and bought a $10 bottle of Iodophor, which has instructions to dilute 10 ml per litre of water.  I made up a 500 ml spray bottle and spritzed them multiple times, again over the space of an hour and again the immersion rinse.

I made 2 fresh 50 litre batches of acidified bleach water (70 ml each of bleach and vinegar) and they have been soaking overnight.   Today I will again rinse them in clean water and then make another 2 batches of Phosphoric acid soak.  If this doesn't work, I'll look up the services of an Exorcist.

I have doubts about the efficacy of the washdowns in Sodium Met and spray bottle application of Iodophor.  The solutions immediately bead up on the plastic and do not have good contact time.  Perhaps I should be making 50 litre soaks of these as well.

Edited March 5 by glivo

[iBooz2]

1 hour ago, glivo said:

I have Sodium Metabisulfite powder here, so yesterday I gave the FVs several good washdowns, inside and out with a solution of it over the space of an hour, followed by an immersion rinse in fresh cold water. 

I went to the HBS and bought a $10 bottle of Iodophor, which has instructions to dilute 10 ml per litre of water.  I made up a 500 ml spray bottle and spritzed them multiple times, again over the space of an hour and again the immersion rinse.

I made 2 fresh 50 litre batches of acidified bleach water (70 ml each of bleach and vinegar) and they have been soaking overnight.   Today I will again rinse them in clean water and then make another 2 batches of Phosphoric acid soak.  If this doesn't work, I'll look up the services of an Exorcist.

I have doubts about the efficacy of the washdowns in Sodium Met and spray bottle application of Iodophor.  The solutions immediately bead up on the plastic and do not have good contact time.  Perhaps I should be making 50 litre soaks of these as well.

I hope you can crack the case @glivo.  I would not be doing immersion rinses.  You want to rinse them off with a garden hose so that anything that's on them is rinsed away and gone onto your lawn.  If you're doing emersion rinses, then you may be just putting the bug into your bathtub (so to speak) and creating a problem loop.

A good idea to do the 50 L soak of both in the iodophor too.  Do it.

"If this doesn't work, I'll look up the services of an Exorcist".    When I said loose that beach mat, I meant lose that beach mat of course.  i.e. burn the bugger.   Was it back in May you first started to cover the Coopers FV's with that mat?

Edited March 6 by iBooz2

[glivo]

Fair call on immersion rinses I suppose, but you'd have to think the sterilisation solutions are killing bugs and not just dislodging them.

I started using the mat and other blankets / covers ages ago.  It's a fairly common practice.  I've had it for a long time and it's never been to the beach.  Covering just seems to help stabilise the temperature so it doesn't fluctuate as much in summer and helps keep them warm in winter.  Sometimes that mat goes on the air-locked FVs as well, but I guess they are air-locked.  I'll skip it when I re-test but I don't think it's the problem.

I forgot to mention that before I started this round of 4 different sterilisation solutions, this time I washed the FVs out using a hot water / caustic bottle wash powder (Brigalow).  Instead of 50 litre immersion soaks (which would have used 500 ml of the Iodophor concentrate) I just filled one FV with 27 litres of clean water and added 270 ml of concentrate, allowed it to soak for 20 minutes and then transferred to the other one for the same treatment.  I continually used a new clean Chux cloth to wipe the solution up around the un-submerged top surface and over the outside lip as well as the lid.  I'm being as thorough as I can be.

Interesting thing in these internal soakings with the Iodophor is that the internal walls of the FV are initially covered in thousands of tiny air bubbles, ie: not contact.  I've needed to use my flat blade stirring spatula to go around and dislodge them, so I have full liquid contact with the plastic.

[glivo]

Use by dates of the current kits being used are WW Lager 20 December 2024 and Coopers Dark Ale 13 October 2025.  The kits used back in May last year and in between have all been "in date".

FV temperatures are in the vicinity of 22 'C as shown by the current batch in the air-locked FVs.

Edited March 6 by glivo

[glivo]

I have so many questions after 36 hours of sanitising at 5 or 6 different stages using 4 different solutions / chemicals and rinsing plus UV exposure.

1 ) What is all this crap that precipitated out of the Iodophor solution from "clean" FVs?

 

Edited March 6 by glivo
Add photos

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, glivo said:

The solutions immediately bead up on the plastic and do not have good contact time.  Perhaps I should be making 50 litre soaks of these as well.

I only ever did the spray bottle regime.  As you note, you use up too much solution otherwise.  Although it beads up, I just spray more.

I gotta say, you are nearly as tenacious as the infection you are getting.  Congratulations to you for sticking at it.

6 hours ago, glivo said:

What is all this crap that precipitated out of the Iodophor solution from "clean" FVs?

No idea.  But that does not help, hey.  I have not seen such phenomenon when I have used Idophor.