Why do hop flavours fade?

[jennyss]

"Why do hop flavours fade?" I know this is not a new question. 

 

In the Coopers Community on March 20th 2018 ChristinaS1 started a post with this question. There is a string of very interesting posts and links to some hard core research. It seems that the hop aromas seep out through lids and bottles; and wait for it......... the worst might be plastic PET bottles! Boo hoo - what to do?

Edited March 7, 2023 by jennyss

[Tricky Micky]

44 minutes ago, jennyss said:

what to do?

Keg! Just kiddin.  I'm interested to know if the commercial product suffers the same fate to be honest. Late Steeps and tea bags etc seem the way to hold onto it a bit longer for sure - dry hops do fade pretty quickly from my experinece.

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 hour ago, jennyss said:

"Why do hop flavours fade?" I know this is not a new question. 

 

In the Coopers Community on March 20th 2018 ChristinaS1 started a post with this question. There is a string of very interesting posts and links to some hard core research. It seems that the hop aromas seep out through lids and bottles; and wait for it......... the worst might be plastic PET bottles! Boo hoo - what to do?

Either get some glass bottles or start kegging Jenny, seriously glass is better than plastic, they are there for the beginner to start brewing with minimum investment. 

The Coopers DIY kit is really just a starting point, but you are at the stage now where you would benefit from bottling in glass.

I am not knocking the PET bottles, but I am many others gave them away years ago, in fact I am still trying to get rid of them.

If you have neighbours that chuck there empties you could ask them to save them for you.

[Classic Brewing Co]

34 minutes ago, Mickep said:

Keg! Just kiddin.  I'm interested to know if the commercial product suffers the same fate to be honest. Late Steeps and tea bags etc seem the way to hold onto it a bit longer for sure - dry hops do fade pretty quickly from my experinece.

I agree, the most effective for me so far is a late hop steep in a muslin cloth 3-4 days before kegging, any less than 50gms is really a waste of time.

There would be exceptions of course depending on the hop & different methods.

[ben 10]

2 hours ago, jennyss said:

what to do?

drink the beer - or enjoy the flavour changing

or fridge the lot when ready

[kmar92]

32 minutes ago, beach_life said:

drink the beer - or enjoy the flavour changing

or fridge the lot when ready

Very good idea.

[Cheap Charlie]

On 3/26/2018 at 9:21 AM, ChristinaS1 said:

Here is an interesting German study done regarding the fate of dry hop substances after packaging in crown cap bottles at 20C for 100 days.

 

http://www.agraria.com.br/extranet/arquivos/agromalte_arquivo/fatos_substancias_dry_hopping_brewingscience_-_ing.pdf

 

The study had an interesting way of dosing the dry hops, using % oil content instead of weight, to even out the comparisons between the four different hop varieties they used.

 

Myrecene dropped by 75%, humulene and caryophellene by ~50%, due to absorption in cap liners, but what surprising is that geraniol actually increased by 92%, and linolool by 21%. That caught me by surprise.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina

[Cheap Charlie]

A link back to christina's topic, I hope he's doing ok

[kmar92]

4 hours ago, jennyss said:

"Why do hop flavours fade?" I know this is not a new question. 

 

In the Coopers Community on March 20th 2018 ChristinaS1 started a post with this question. There is a string of very interesting posts and links to some hard core research. It seems that the hop aromas seep out through lids and bottles; and wait for it......... the worst might be plastic PET bottles! Boo hoo - what to do?

Yes, PET bottles are very slightly porous so they do allow some loss of hop aroma, carbonation and also allow a small amount of oxygen back into the beer resulting in oxidation of the beer over longer periods of time. Talking very small amounts but with time that may be a problem.

I agree with @Classic Brewing Co that it is better to use glass bottles with crown seals to minimise the effects of oxidation and hop fade.

[Oldbloke]

You need to find someone who drinks,

Coopers long necks, or

Ginger beer or 

Asahi

 

 

[Oldbloke]

Obviously there are other options.

You can use clear or green glass too. Bundaberg do both. But very important once bottled they are kept in the dark.

 

Edit: Visit the rear of the local pub early Sunday morning.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Oldbloke

[Brauhaus Fritz]

On 3/7/2023 at 8:35 PM, Cheap Charlie said:

On 3/26/2018 at 10:21 AM, ChristinaS1 said:

Here is an interesting German study done regarding the fate of dry hop substances after packaging in crown cap bottles at 20C for 100 days.

 

http://www.agraria.com.br/extranet/arquivos/agromalte_arquivo/fatos_substancias_dry_hopping_brewingscience_-_ing.pdf

 

The study had an interesting way of dosing the dry hops, using % oil content instead of weight, to even out the comparisons between the four different hop varieties they used.

 

Myrecene dropped by 75%, humulene and caryophellene by ~50%, due to absorption in cap liners, but what surprising is that geraniol actually increased by 92%, and linolool by 21%. That caught me by surprise.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina

Expand  

interesting page with great recipes, but where is the article

 

[Malter White]

@jennyss I don't dry hop so I can't explain aroma fading and I seriously question the value dry hopping when brewers like @Classic Brewing Co suggest anything less than 50g is a waste of time. Relatively speaking, hops are expensive, so why blow 50g or more on an aroma that might not be there eventually?
I do boil and steep hops though and also use PET bottles - have been for 6 years. I sometimes use as little as 15g of hops and can add a positive change to my brews. Is there hop fade? Not that I can tell. If there is it is far too negligible for me to notice.
While I think the aesthetics of beer in glass is better than in plastic, I love the PETs because they are light, easier to cap, don't explode and you can get them delivered free from Coopers if you need them rather scrounging through recycling bins for glass ones.
Do what suits you. Your beer, your choice.
 

[Classic Brewing Co]

48 minutes ago, Malter White said:

@jennyss I don't dry hop so I can't explain aroma fading and I seriously question the value dry hopping when brewers like @Classic Brewing Co suggest anything less than 50g is a waste of time. Relatively speaking, hops are expensive, so why blow 50g or more on an aroma that might not be there eventually?
I do boil and steep hops though and also use PET bottles - have been for 6 years. I sometimes use as little as 15g of hops and can add a positive change to my brews. Is there hop fade? Not that I can tell. If there is it is far too negligible for me to notice.
While I think the aesthetics of beer in glass is better than in plastic, I love the PETs because they are light, easier to cap, don't explode and you can get them delivered free from Coopers if you need them rather scrounging through recycling bins for glass ones.
Do what suits you. Your beer, your choice.
 

Hey Malter,

Just for the record I don't dry hop anymore but have found of late to get the maximum flavour that lingers with hops is to do a late steep, as late as three days before kegging/bottling.

As for quantity I find that any less than 50gm doesn't cut it, my latest batch of Bootmaker Pale Ale is about to blow & replaced with an IPA which has had 60gms of Galaxy added to it.

I find in the keg particularly, the hop aroma & taste is still prominent after 6 weeks, pretty much the same as the few longnecks I get as leftovers.

Regarding cost if I go to Big W or Dan Murhpy's the only hops they sell are a 12gm Galaxy for $4.50 - I can get 100gms of POR for $8.50 at Beer Belly, enough to for 2 brews. 

3 other LBHS are among those I visit but the aforementioned is by far the cheapest.

Years ago, I used to buy packets of hops all around 12-15gms & quite honestly unless you put 3 or 3 packets in, it hardly makes any difference, like chucking a sixpence in the ocean.

I appreciate everyone's point of view & we all have different & also I have never ordered hops from Coopers as I prefer to source everything locally although I do add some to Keg Land orders from time to time. I cannot comment on Coopers hop prices, but I am sure they are competitive.

Some AG brews call for up to 100gms of hops.

[Malter White]

11 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Hey Malter,

Just for the record I don't dry hop anymore but have found of late to get the maximum flavour that lingers with hops is to do a late steep, as late as three days before kegging/bottling.

As for quantity I find that any less than 50gm doesn't cut it, my latest batch of Bootmaker Pale Ale is about to blow & replaced with an IPA which has had 60gms of Galaxy added to it.

I find in the keg particularly, the hop aroma & taste is still prominent after 6 weeks, pretty much the same as the few longnecks I get as leftovers.

Regarding cost if I go to Big W or Dan Murhpy's the only hops they sell are a 12gm Galaxy for $4.50 - I can get 100gms of POR for $8.50 at Beer Belly, enough to for 2 brews. 

3 other LBHS are among those I visit but the aforementioned is by far the cheapest.

Years ago, I used to buy packets of hops all around 12-15gms & quite honestly unless you put 3 or 3 packets in, it hardly makes any difference, like chucking a sixpence in the ocean.

I appreciate everyone's point of view & we all have different & also I have never ordered hops from Coopers as I prefer to source everything locally although I do add some to Keg Land orders from time to time. I cannot comment on Coopers hop prices, but I am sure they are competitive.

Some AG brews call for up to 100gms of hops.

We need to be mindful here of quantities. If you're using 50g, 100g or more in AG brews, well that's a different matter. As far as I'm aware @jennyss is extract brewing like myself. Extract brews are already pre-hopped, so 50g, 100g quantities for extracts are overkill IMO.
I was careful to point out hops are "relatively" expensive. Using your pricing of $85/kg and using 50g would add $4.25 or 17% to the rough cost of a kit & kilo brew of $25. That is relatively expensive. It's not as expensive as buying a slab from the bottlo.

[Classic Brewing Co]

2 minutes ago, Malter White said:

We need to be mindful here of quantities. If you're using 50g, 100g or more in AG brews, well that's a different matter. As far as I'm aware @jennyss is extract brewing like myself. Extract brews are already pre-hopped, so 50g, 100g quantities for extracts are overkill IMO.
I was careful to point out hops are "relatively" expensive. Using your pricing of $85/kg and using 50g would add $4.25 or 17% to the rough cost of a kit & kilo brew of $25. That is relatively expensive. It's not as expensive as buying a slab from the bottlo.

OK but using a Coopers Pale Ale can of extract for example, brewing it without hop additions, it is still a fine beer. 

Adding extra hops takes it to the next level, as you know Coopers commercial brew uses POR so to me adding 50gms more makes it sing.

Again, that is to my taste, I am not worried about the extra cost if you enjoy it but as you say it is still cheaper than going to the bottle shop - so you are way in front anyway.

[Tricky Micky]

1 hour ago, Malter White said:

the rough cost of a kit & kilo brew of $25.

@Malter White, MDubbya, where are you getting your extract from? The local chop chop shop down the alley way. $25 bucks is way cheaper than I can get the stuff for......you da man! 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Tricky Micky

[Classic Brewing Co]

19 minutes ago, Tricky Micky said:

@Malter White, MDubbya, where are you getting your extract from? The local chop chop shop down the alley way. $25 bucks is way cheaper than I can get the stuff for......you da man! 

My average extract brew cost would be between $40-50 especially if I use the Thomas Cooper range & with malt, grain, hop additions without mentioning specialty yeasts.

[Malter White]

26 minutes ago, Tricky Micky said:

@Malter White, MDubbya, where are you getting your extract from? The local chop chop shop down the alley way. $25 bucks is way cheaper than I can get the stuff for......you da man! 

Members of Coopers online store only pay $15 for an Original Series tin plus $10 for BE2 plus free delivery once a month. Obviously the Thomas Cooper and International ranges are dearer. I'm also loath to add extra hops to the latter 2 ranges. I liken it to using Iced Vovos for a cheesecake base when a pack of Milk Coffees biscuits is suffice. They're already well hopped and 'supposedly' premium products, although my recent bugbear regarding the yeast change on Euro Lager would say otherwise. 

[Kegory]

I have noticed that Little Creatures Pale Ale sometimes has a delicate floral aroma. Other times it doesn't. I guess this is an example of hop fade.

[Tricky Micky]

1 hour ago, Kegory said:

I have noticed that Little Creatures Pale Ale sometimes has a delicate floral aroma. Other times it doesn't. I guess this is an example of hop fade.

Yeah, I was wondering if the commercial product suffered the same fate. If they are immune from the hop fade  I wonder how that's achieved.