RDT2 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 28 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said: It is still an ale type yeast. So no great need for a diacetyl rest. Me, I would up the temp by 2°C for 24-48 hours to encourage any yeast cleaning up. Bottle on Friday. Cold crashing not necessary with a wheat beer. Just convenient to bottle tomorrow and being impatient 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 Yep, it’s diacetyl alright. The good news is that I had one of my suspect brews alongside it and that tasted better than before, so I guess it dissipates a bit with age 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 Righto, hopefully this arrangement with less direct heat-belt contact and a free-floating probe works better 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 You should put a small fan in there to circulate the air better. The top FV will always be warmer simply because heat rises. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 I figure in such a small place it won’t be too much of an issue, but to your point it will help if the belt is down below, not up top 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleStavvy Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Maybe hole saw some ventilation holes through the ply wood shelf. Looks like there's a good gap in front for air flow anyway so maybe heat belt on the bottom and tweek the correction factor on the temp probe maybe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) Whenever I need heat in my brew fridge I can't fit the flask on the bottom so it does sit on a wire shelf above the fermenter. I suppose the difference is that there's only one fermenter in there and nothing blocking the heat from eventually filling the whole fridge. It does the job. I don't have a heat belt or anything because I don't need heat often enough to bother with one. In your case there is a barrier of sorts preventing the lower fermenter getting as much heat as the top one, so it would work better putting the heat source in the bottom. Edited June 2, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, UncleStavvy said: Maybe hole saw some ventilation holes through the ply wood shelf. Looks like there's a good gap in front for air flow anyway so maybe heat belt on the bottom and tweek the correction factor on the temp probe maybe? There's plenty of space both sides of the shelf that the top fermenter sits on 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 3, 2020 Author Share Posted June 3, 2020 Egad, that last arrangement didn’t work - I was cooking the top beer! Next attempt ... probe up top, heat below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Put a bloody fan in there, you'll get better circulation of the air and more even temps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I would also suggest if you're not taping the probe to the side of one of the FV's then it might be better to at least put it into a small container of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Thanks for sharing Ruddy. So basically time and temp will reduce the diacteyl to levels that make it drinkable. Noted. Good luck with the future brews and videos Norris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, Norris! said: Thanks for sharing Ruddy. So basically time and temp will reduce the diacteyl to levels that make it drinkable. Noted. Good luck with the future brews and videos Norris Not really. If it's not removed early enough it stays put, and it's most effective when the yeast are still active. That's why I always raise the temperature on lagers before fermentation finishes, to speed up the process and make sure it happens. I raise the temperature on ales too but not for diacetyl, that's just to speed up the finishing off and prevent the temperature dropping off and sending the yeast dormant too early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 2 hours ago, BlackSands said: I would also suggest if you're not taping the probe to the side of one of the FV's then it might be better to at least put it into a small container of water. Im thinking that wont work because where does he put the container. Also the temperature change in the container will be a lot faster then the fv's. Dilemma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: Not really. If it's not removed early enough it stays put, and it's most effective when the yeast are still active. That's why I always raise the temperature on lagers before fermentation finishes, to speed up the process and make sure it happens. I raise the temperature on ales too but not for diacetyl, that's just to speed up the finishing off and prevent the temperature dropping off and sending the yeast dormant too early. So basically what the link stated and time and temp. Cheers for clarifying. I probably shouldn't have been so vague and been clearer with my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Norris! said: So basically what the link stated and time and temp. Cheers for clarifying. I probably shouldn't have been so vague and been clearer with my statement. Yeah, the simplest way to put it is that you want it gone before the beer is bottled or kegged. If it's not and the yeast go dormant before they get rid of it then you get butterscotch beer. I know it's been posted in the past that with bottled lagers it can be removed in the bottles by carbonating them at ale temps but I always preferred to do the rest in the fermenter rather than let the yeast go dormant first and then hope they take care of it when they wake up again in the bottles. Edited June 4, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 It seems to be disappearing from my pale at least. Hopefully the XPA too in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 14 hours ago, Titan said: Im thinking that wont work because where does he put the container. Also the temperature change in the container will be a lot faster then the fv's. Dilemma I wasn't suggesting this was a best idea, but more a better compromise than the one currently implemented. KR currently has the sensor probe monitoring the air temperature. I don't think this is a good idea in this situation. Air has a low thermal mass and will be more prone to small temperature fluctuations which means the controller may end up cycling on and off far more frequently than it needs to. Immersing the probe in water will simply help buffer this and 'smooth' out those fluctuations. But it's still not ideal. A temperature gradient almost certainly exists in this configuration and relying on convection to the distribute the heat evenly won't be enough, hence the fan recommendations made by others. Having said all that I do wonder what the temperature difference is top vs bottom FV? If it's just a degree or two I personally wouldn't be worrying about it too much. i.e. if the one brew is fermenting at 18.2º and the other is closer to 19.7º... who cares? The only time that might matter is if you were doing a split batch to evaluate some aspect of the brew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 5, 2020 Author Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, BlackSands said: I do wonder what the temperature difference is top vs bottom FV? It was probably 5°, which is significant My ultimate solution to this will be to get a second heat belt, as I actually do have another controller and it's only an issue in winter. Will just need to make sure I don't cause a feedback loop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, King Ruddager said: It was probably 5°, which is significant My ultimate solution to this will be to get a second heat belt, as I actually do have another controller and it's only an issue in winter. Will just need to make sure I don't cause a feedback loop! Crikey 5º difference is far more than I expected! Seriously, you won't have a feedback loop but you will have a competition. I think you're going to run into problems with two controllers... they'll be competing with each other - fighting for ultimate dominance! The best solution, in my ever so humble and modest (but actually educated) opinion is - stop ignoring what people above have been saying: and get a fu**ing FAN installed in there! Edited June 5, 2020 by BlackSands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted June 5, 2020 Author Share Posted June 5, 2020 I'm ignoring the fan comments because I don't think it will work for me. Heat belts should be used directly on a fermenter (unlike what I did in the picture above) - they can overheat otherwise. If I'm applying direct heat to one of the fermenters it's always going to be the hottest. If I was going to use a fan I'd need a different source of heat and would need to measure the ambient temperature (or the temperature inside a small vessel of water, as suggested). The easiest way out of this for me is just to get another heat belt so that each fermenter will have a temperature controller (I already have two) and a heat belt. The weather isn't even forecast to get above 17° during the day for at least a week at the moment, so if I unplug the fridge then no worries. Maybe one of them will get a little warm, but not outside the ideal range and it ought to even out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Corner Brewing Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) Maybe get another fridge? Problem really solved then. It’s not like you’ve got anything in that shed up the hill anyways Edited June 5, 2020 by NewBrews 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) All beer has some level of diacetyl especially in ale yeast fermentation brews. Lager yeast beers predominantly want very low levels of diacetyl or they present poorly so measures need to be adopted to greatly minimise these levels. On 6/2/2020 at 11:37 PM, King Ruddager said: Yep, it’s diacetyl alright. Your diacetyl test would have only proved it was present on some level. The sweetness you have described is likely due to the increased maltotriose level left by the S-04 yeast combined with an increased crystal malt quantity you mentioned using in the grist, magnified by a 15°C temp measure of your fridge during primary ferment that would have induced a stalled ferment increasing the remaining sugars remaining in the sample you tasted. Given you never offered up a FG for this brew or which of the US-05 or S-04 brews was at 15°C, in my mind some doubt still remains about the source of the excessive sweetness you describe. The only reason I am doubting the diacetyl angle is that you would be the first to claim this as a cause (& be correct) of excessive sweetness of an ale brew in the 8 odd years I have been present as a member on the forum (that I can recall). If you end up tipping it, I'll believe it may have been diacteyl related if you can also discount the other areas you have yet to answer conclusively. Lusty. Edited June 5, 2020 by Beerlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 If you put a fan in there then both fermenters should be basically the same temperature as the air temperature inside the fridge should be pretty much the same all through it, so you wouldn't have to control it based on ambient. There'd probably only a be degree or so difference between them, in which case you'd put the probe on the cooler one to prevent it dropping too low. If it was me I'd be getting a different heat source that definitely won't overheat just sitting in there and putting a fan in, which would be a lot simpler and likely work better than complicating it more than necessary by using two heat belts and controllers. At least that way the fridge can still be plugged in and come on if the brews get too warm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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