Which hops to use in the whirlpool: cheap vs expensive?

[ChristinaS1]

I just watched this Beersmith interview with Michael Tonsmeire, The Mad Fermentationist, about making NEIPAs. It was recorded back in Feb. 2018.  At minute 29:00 he starts talking about a typical hop schedule.

On the topic of whirlpool additions he said something that caught my attention: use any cheap, characterful hop you have (he likes Columbus and Simcoe) and save your expensive hops for the dry hop. He didn't go into his reasons but I assume it is because most hop compounds are greatly reduced (or even eliminated) by fermentation, so you want to use something potent and cheap, in large doses. He suggested 8g/L in the whirlpool / hopstand....I suppose the same principle applies for other types of IPAs.

The video is a bit dated, and it is possible he isn't doing this anymore, but I am wondering what you all think of this? Personally I have always used the same varieties late in the boil and whirlpool as I do in the dry hop, but this has me thinking. Centennial is pretty cheap at my LHBS, and I like it.

Cheers,

Christina.

PS And he said another thing: if as a home brewer you don't have a kegging system, don't bother trying to make NEIPAs. You need to be able to keep out oxygen.

Edited February 10, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Marty_G]

Well the brew I did last Friday week  is ready to consume. I had a taste test today and while very good it is not as hop forward as i was after.  It had a late addition of 30g dried Cascade and then a whirlpool and hop stand at 80C of 100g dried Cascade flowers. After at the end of the fement I dry hopped another 30g. Must admit i expected more aroma and taste. So I agree with the cheap hop comment. Next brew will be the hops but will dry hop with pellets.  

[Norris!]

2 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

On the topic of whirlpool additions he said something that caught my attention: use any cheap, characterful hop you have (he likes Columbus and Simcoe) and save your expensive hops for the dry hop. He didn't go into his reasons but I assume it is because most hop compounds are greatly reduced (or even eliminated) by fermentation, so you want to use something potent and cheap, in large doses. He suggested 8g/L in the whirlpool / hopstand....I suppose the same principle applies for other types of IPAs.

The video is a bit dated, and it is possible he isn't doing this anymore, but I am wondering what you all think of this? Personally I have always used the same varieties late in the boil and whirlpool as I do in the dry hop, but this has me thinking. Centennial is pretty cheap at my LHBS, and I like it.

Cheers,

Christina.

PS And he said another thing: if as a home brewer you don't have a kegging system, don't bother trying to make NEIPAs. You need to be able to keep out oxygen.

I use the same hops, sometimes, throughout the boil, whirlpool and dry hop. I have done batches with Vic secret for example, that I only added that at dry hop due to not wanting any pine just fruit aromas and flavour and used other hops that were more to the character I was after.

It makes sense to use cheaper hops and save the expensive ones for what you really want, the aroma from the dry hop. With a good thought and experience of what they will bring, it would work great. I would have only, last 15 or so brews, been focusing on trying to get cheaper hop combos going but sometimes I say forget it and go hard with whatever I want to use, but I do think about it.

8g/l in the whirlpool is massive but you will get the juiciness coming through. I use about 5-6g/l in the whirlpool for my hazy pales and 8g/l for the dry hop. I don't call those brews NEIPA's but people who try them do.

The bottling of NEIPAs issue is understandable due to the oxygen intake, but you can do it and the beers are more than drinkable. It isn't like they are bad as soon as you bottle them. I have bottled several batches of hazy pales and no one has said they were oxidized, but yes, the keg version is better and a little more golden, but just slightly. I do prefer the keg version and totally think that secondary fermentation in the bottle isn't the best thing for these brews, but I have only done a few side by sides, keg versus bottle and the beers were enjoyable. I could tell the bottled version but only because I had been drinking the keg for a 10 days before the bottles. The aroma and flavours were almost identical but slightly different for the bottle, not as intense or bright as the keg. My buddy also noticed the difference but I had to key him on the aroma and flavour to get him to pick it up.

Great post Christina. The biggest thing I learned from brewing is to push the limits no matter what the current thinking is. Trust your heart and knowledge and experiment a little. If we all followed current thinking we would never have NEIPAS with 60 IBUS from whirlpool additions.

Great post, thank you, you got my mind spinning right now thinking up combos to try!

Norris

[Lab Cat]

Which hops are cheap and expensive? I buy 50 and 100g bags and they're all pretty much the same price. Given that, I've tended to do it empirically. 

For example, last year, I did a nice pale with bittered cascade and dry hopped a load of Mosaic. Did it again recently, but bittered and steeped the Mosaic to save on hops.  Totally different result, the Mosaic dominated and not in a great way, too much very ripe stonefruit, whereas the dry hopped version had a good aroma and light tropical flavours. So in this case, saving money by not dry hopping large amounts was a bad choice.

 

[Marty_G]

1 hour ago, Norris! said:

Great post Christina. The biggest thing I learned from brewing is to push the limits no matter what the current thinking is. Trust your heart and knowledge and experiment a little. If we all followed current thinking we would never have NEIPAS with 60 IBUS from whirlpool additions.

I agree it is a great post. Watching the clip it dawned on me what I don't like about the highly hop driven beers. I thought it was the balance of the hops but it isn't it is the sweetness and now I understand that I desire more bitterness not reduced sweetness.   Time to have a play with my next recipe.  

[Norris!]

On the homebrew scale, the cost of hops are pretty negible, the podcast went from commercial to homebrew talk, so you have to take some of it with a grain of salt for our purposes.

For example the talk of using Columbus, is fine but you don't want a lot of pine in a NEIPA, well in the ones I brew. I want fruit flavours not dank. That is why I pick and choose which hops to use in these brews carefully. Simcoe is citrusy but some pine can come through too. You have to be careful but that is only my view and opinion, which could change, but pine in these brews make it too close to a west coast for my liking.

[ChristinaS1]

@Lab Rat Cost varies from place to place. Columbus is cheap at my LHBS, just $1.69 per ounce. Unlike where Micheal Tonsmeire lives, Simcoe is very expensive for me, in fact it is the most expensive pelleted hop my LHBS carries, at $3.79 per ounce, which is more than twice as much as Columbus. At 8g/L, using Columbus instead of Simcoe could save me $13.80, which would be worth it to me. Using Columbus instead of Centennial would save me $3.30, which is less significant.

@Norris! Agreed! I have never used Columbus, partly out of fear of pine, but maybe my fear is misplaced? According to this study, which looked at 15 different hop varieties (including Columbus) and sampled them at various stages. It seems alpha and beta pinene (part of the monoterpene hydrocarbons group) don't make it through the hop stand. If I am reading the charts right, it is gone even before fermentation:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272892457_Comparison_of_the_analytical_profiles_of_volatiles_in_single-hopped_worts_and_beers_as_a_function_of_the_hop_variety

The authors say, "Interestingly, hardly any monoterpene hydrocarbon was detected in the late hopped beers. As mentioned before, only β-myrcene has been found in the beers (varieties Saaz, Simcoe, Sorachi Ace and Tettnanger)." Note that myrcene is another compound in the monoterpene hydrocarbon group. 

I think I will start by experimenting with using Centennial for my APA hop stands, as my dry hop additions are small. If it turns out more of the hop stand flavour comes through than the study indicates, Centennial has quite an acceptable flavour to me.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Norris!]

10 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

@Lab Rat Cost varies from place to place. Columbus is cheap at my LHBS, just $1.69 per ounce. Unlike where Micheal Tonsmeire lives, Simcoe is very expensive for me, in fact it is the most expensive pelleted hop my LHBS carries, at $3.79 per ounce, which is more than twice as much as Columbus. At 8g/L, using Columbus instead of Simcoe could save me $13.80, which would be worth it to me. Using Columbus instead of Centennial would save me $3.30, which is less significant.

When using massive amounts of hops you will need to focus on the best deals for the hops and buy in bulk, then the price becomes negible. For example, Yakima sells 8oz of simcoe for $9.99 versus $7.99 for centennial or cascade, I believe. Then it is negible.

[Norris!]

Wow, those charts are awesome, I need to study them a lot more. @ChristinaS1

[ben 10]

On 2/10/2020 at 1:18 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

but I am wondering what you all think of this?

For me it comes down to what I have on hand I guess? I buy 500g lots and to have too many on hand is probably silly. So I'll use what I have.

 

[Journeyman]

On 2/10/2020 at 11:31 PM, ChristinaS1 said:

According to this study, which looked at 15 different hop varieties (including Columbus) and sampled them at various stages.

I thought I'd DL the pdf for future ref and weirdly the title is... "Seafood Frontier Road Trip Map.pdf" Um...???? Dafuq?  Definitely the correct doc though. 

Then there's this...

"Therefore, it is a necessity to systematically identify, characterize and quantify the
sensory-active key compounds that are present in raw materials
and/or are produced upon food processing [22, 23].
Research has identified over 450 compounds so far and much
progress has been made in the field of hop flavor research [24].
However, it is believed that most of the compounds present in the
essential hop oils are still ill-defined or unknown"

Say WHAT? 450 ID'd and most still unknown? !!!  

Edited February 11, 2020 by Journeyman

[Titan]

On 2/11/2020 at 8:28 PM, Ben 10 said:

For me it comes down to what I have on hand I guess? I buy 500g lots and to have too many on hand is probably silly. So I'll use what I have.

 

My local club just finished a bulk buy of gallaxy, priced to members at $46 a kilo, will pick mine up in a couple weeks. Win

[ChristinaS1]

14 hours ago, Titan said:

My local club just finished a bulk buy of gallaxy, priced to members at $46 a kilo, will pick mine up in a couple weeks. Win

Nice! So are you going to use them in the whirlpool, or save them for dry hopping?

I have started to look into buying hops online, in either 8oz to 1 pound packages, but it doesn't make sense to do that without a vacuum sealer, does it? I don't own a vacuum sealer.

To those of you who buy hops in bulk, how are you storing them?

I am looking at a hand held unit to both save space and money. Something like this:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07Q5T7JG2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2NDT5IL8P4VI&psc=1

This particular one comes with a few bags, but the difficulty is know if replacement bags, which may be another brand, will be compatible. And some bags are better than others. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[Popo the Reprobate]

2 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I am looking at a hand held unit to both save space and money. Something like this

G'day Christina, I buy in 2-300g lots and find a vacuum sealer invaluable for storing leftovers. I have a bigger electric one that works really well. I have tried 2 handheld devices and the bags they come with both failed after a week or two in the freezer. The reviews for this one seem pretty positive though. Just something to be wary of.

[Marty_G]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:28 PM, Ben 10 said:

I buy 500g lots and to have too many on hand is probably silly. So I'll use what I have.

I have started doing the same, buying 500g at a time. Interestingly if you get 300g or more from Keg King they charge you the discounted 500g price which is handy for hops that you may not use as often.  I bought 300g each of Nelson Sauvin and Hallertau Blanc which will arrive this week.  

 

17 hours ago, Titan said:

gallaxy, priced to members at $46 a kilo,

That is cheap, it is about half the rate you can buy on eBay. 

[iBooz2]

18 hours ago, Titan said:

My local club just finished a bulk buy of gallaxy, priced to members at $46 a kilo, will pick mine up in a couple weeks. Win

You lucky bugger @Titan I just paid 75 kangaroo skins for 1 kg of Galaxy plus shipping!

Cheers - AL

[Aussiekraut]

1 hour ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

 I bought 300g each of Nelson Sauvin and Hallertau Blanc which will arrive this week.  

Have you used Nelson Sauvin before? Does it make the beer taste grapy or winy? I have some but am reluctant to use it as I really don't want my beer to taste like wine  

[Marty_G]

@Aussiekraut I have never used it but it is part of the Fat Yak clone recipe I am doing. @BlackSands is the guy to ask I bet he has used it as it as it is Kiwi hop.  

Edited February 29, 2020 by MartyG1525230263

[Journeyman]

9 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Nice! So are you going to use them in the whirlpool, or save them for dry hopping?

I have started to look into buying hops online, in either 8oz to 1 pound packages, but it doesn't make sense to do that without a vacuum sealer, does it? I don't own a vacuum sealer.

To those of you who buy hops in bulk, how are you storing them?

I am looking at a hand held unit to both save space and money. Something like this:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07Q5T7JG2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2NDT5IL8P4VI&psc=1

This particular one comes with a few bags, but the difficulty is know if replacement bags, which may be another brand, will be compatible. And some bags are better than others. 

Cheers,

Christina.

You can do an almost vac seal by using zip lock bags, fill with your hops then carefully immerse in a sink or pot of water to remove the air. For hops you'd need to smoosh them around a bit while in the water to remove air between the pellets, but you can get very close to what a vac sealer achieves. Then with the zip just above water line, seal the zip and VOILA! vac sealed hops.

I use it for the meat/fish I am going to freeze for later use in the sous vide.

Also if you are going to get a sealer unit, get the rolls of vac bag material - the sealer will evacuate then heat seal and you only use as much as you need for each pouch of hops. They're also cheaper than the bags.

Mind you, for my sous vide stuff I really do not want to be re-using the pouch so bags were never an option.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Journeyman

[Marty_G]

9 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I have started to look into buying hops online, in either 8oz to 1 pound packages, but it doesn't make sense to do that without a vacuum sealer, does it?

From what I have garnered from the hop heads is: Vacuum packaging is only necessary for long term storage.  Once opened I fold the bag over as much as I can, tape it down and freeze. One of the guys, maybe Lusty, just keeps them in the fridge with a cable tie around the neck of the bag.   The pic is some Nugget and Cascade flowers I have been using.  Buying bulk sure is the way to reduce costs. My 1st AG Pils had 200g of Saaz and the LHBS charges $8.95 for 50g. I can buy 500g for $43.40 delivered what is $4.34/50g or a saving of $18.44 per Pils brew.   It was after that brew that I swore I will never buy hops from him again.  

[Titan]

11 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Nice! So are you going to use them in the whirlpool, or save them for dry hopping?

I have started to look into buying hops online, in either 8oz to 1 pound packages, but it doesn't make sense to do that without a vacuum sealer, does it? I don't own a vacuum sealer.

To those of you who buy hops in bulk, how are you storing them?

I am looking at a hand held unit to both save space and money. Something like this:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07Q5T7JG2/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2NDT5IL8P4VI&psc=1

This particular one comes with a few bags, but the difficulty is know if replacement bags, which may be another brand, will be compatible. And some bags are better than others. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Both whirlpool and dry hoping. Depends on the beer im making at the time. I have a vacuum sealer and the kilo bag will be split into smaller lots, then stored in the freezer.

[ChristinaS1]

 

18 hours ago, Popo said:

G'day Christina, I buy in 2-300g lots and find a vacuum sealer invaluable for storing leftovers. I have a bigger electric one that works really well. I have tried 2 handheld devices and the bags they come with both failed after a week or two in the freezer. The reviews for this one seem pretty positive though. Just something to be wary of.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the handheld vac sealers Popo. You have convinced me that if I get a vacuum sealer, I should skip the handheld type and get a bigger one that uses the rolls. I will watch for sales. I am not in a hurry.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Popo the Reprobate]

No worries . I reckon that's the way to go.

[Norris!]

On 3/1/2020 at 8:35 AM, Aussiekraut said:

Have you used Nelson Sauvin before? Does it make the beer taste grapy or winy? I have some but am reluctant to use it as I really don't want my beer to taste like wine  

NS has a very distinct taste and aroma that some people like and some don't.

I use this hop sparingly, because I pick up ester like aromas from it that turn me off in large quantities. So I use it in a ratio of 1/4 abouts. So 15g of NS at flameout with 60g of whatever other hop or hops I am using.

Some people really like it, I just use it to get away from the staple hops that everyone is used to or to offset them with a different flavour and aroma. It is a curveball I throw at beers.

[BlackSands]

On 3/1/2020 at 11:43 AM, MartyG1525230263 said:

@Aussiekraut I have never used it but it is part of the Fat Yak clone recipe I am doing. @BlackSands is the guy to ask I bet he has used it as it as it is Kiwi hop.  

Yes, NS hops are potent!  The biggest selling NZ hop by far and one I've used a number of times in the past but wasn't too keen.  They're definitely a hop you'd want to balance carefully with something suitably complementary....  and, I don't think Hallertau Blanc is one of those hops! 

 

On 3/1/2020 at 9:42 AM, MartyG1525230263 said:

I bought 300g each of Nelson Sauvin and Hallertau Blanc which will arrive this week.  

Hallertau Blanc was often suggested as a near-ish equivalent to Nelson... so by using both these hops together you may well be getting a double-dose of the sauvignon blanc character!

Edited March 3, 2020 by BlackSands