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King Ruddager

Flameout / whirlpool hops

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It occurred to me that, in many cases, instructions say to cover the brew while steeping hops. Should I be putting the lid on my urn if adding hops at (or after) flameout?

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I have never seen such instructions but anyhow, I can’t see that making a difference, if it volitises off it won’t go back into solution anyway. If that’s what it was meant for

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I don't bother. I do put the lid on it when I whirlpool it after the flameout hops are removed though, because apparently it helps form a more compact cone. I dunno if it does or not but it at least keeps the heat in better so it's going into the cube at an acceptable temperature. 

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Glad this topic was raised as I've got a similar question about whirlpool hops.

This morning I did a quick partial mash brew to go with a tin of extract. Quick fridge filler for the warmer weather. Turned the flame off and moved the pot into the sink and put some cold water around it. As it was a partial mash, I'd frozen some 3 ltr ice cubes ahead of time.

I dumped one into the wort and stored it until it melted, with the idea of dropping temp to 80 degrees for my whirlpool addition.  Trouble is, it dropped it to about 45-50 degrees. I didn't have time to stuff around so I dumped the hops in anyway and gave it a good stir and let it sit for 15mins before transferring into the FV.

Will this have any bad effect on my final beer? I'm just worried I won't get the flavour and aroma to its full potential as the temp was a lot lower than required.

 

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Hard to say for sure but it wouldn't have ruined it. 

I don't take much notice of flameout bitterness, it doesn't really introduce much compared to a boiled addition, and it would be even less in an extract brew as the smaller volume would cool down quicker 

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I still haven’t settled on an “adjustment” number I like. Currently just adding 10 minutes but with mixed results

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I'm not concerned about the bitterness I just don't want to miss out on the hop flavours and aromas from a whirlpool addition at too low a temp

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Posted (edited)

As it’s oils that you are extracting, hotter the temp the better for this however you’ll still extract just at a lower level. Plus different flavour compounds. 

It might turn out amazing?........

Mohave heard of breweries doing a 75c hop stand then a 50c hop stand for different hop flavour extraction. 

Edited by The Captain!!

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One thing I have wondered about with regard to these really 'cool' whirlpool additions is the duration of the steep. If several days is considered appropriate for a dry hop at say 20ºC to fully yield all it's hoppy goodness, then would it not therefore follow that at say 49ºC a post-boil hop charge would actually need a much longer steep time then just 15 - 30mins? Perhaps... even one day at that temp to achieve optimal extraction? It seems like what you're really doing in this situation is a warm, pre-fermentation dry-hop...   🤔

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I guess that depends on if it is actually 7 days because all of the stuff I’m hearing about is 24-48 hrs dry hop. Done. I think the 7 days is now outdated, about as much as the Yeast book is I guess.........

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37 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

I guess that depends on if it is actually 7 days because all of the stuff I’m hearing about is 24-48 hrs dry hop. Done. I think the 7 days is now outdated, about as much as the Yeast book is I guess.........

I said several days. I dry hop for three.  But I think my point still stand regardless...

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So you dry hop for a few, several is worse, possibly 5-9 days. 

Anyway just taking the piss. 

I think your right in a sense just maybe not a full day. At 50c your still going to be pulling a fair amount quickly. 

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17 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

So you dry hop for a few, several is worse, possibly 5-9 days. 

Anyway just taking the piss. 

I think your right in a sense just maybe not a full day. At 50c your still going to be pulling a fair amount quickly. 

I thought several was the same as a few?    I just looked it up... several = "more than two but not many"  and a few = "a small number of"  😁

Yeah, maybe not a full day, and it's maybe not a 1:1 linear relationship between temperature and extraction time but I do have a hunch that at 50ºC-ish it's going to be a duration much longer than the usual steep/whilpool times people usually do.  Perhaps hours?  Dunno....   

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A few is never several ha ha.

ill put it this way.

A bloke bought a few (of the same image) large photos from your website. Another bought several, did you make more money out of the few or the several?..........

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14 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

A few is never several ha ha.

ill put it this way.

A bloke bought a few (of the same image) large photos from your website. Another bought several, did you make more money out of the few or the several?..........

I would have made the same.. i.e. sod all!  😁

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Posted (edited)

Hi Karlos.

20 hours ago, karlos_1984 said:

...it dropped it to about 45-50 degrees. I didn't have time to stuff around so I dumped the hops in anyway and gave it a good stir and let it sit for 15mins before transferring into the FV.

Will this have any bad effect on my final beer? I'm just worried I won't get the flavour and aroma to its full potential as the temp was a lot lower than required.

You'll obtain a shift from preserved hop flavour to more aroma at that 45-50°C temperature (IMHO). At flameout you're still getting some isomerisation of the hop oils which will garner & retain flavour. At 45-50°C you're closer to dry hopping temps that typically impart more aroma than flavour on the final beer.

The plus about steeping hops around this temp zone is the preservation of one of the major oils contained in hops, that being Myrcene. Myrcene has a flash point of about 64°C. I did some experimenting with this practice a few years ago, & it does have some merit. It's a complex area to fully understand & in the end I just wanted to get on with making beer without pouring too much time & effort into this area, so stopped experimenting with it.

Late Hop Additions and Hop Oils in Beer Brewing

19 hours ago, karlos_1984 said:

I'm not concerned about the bitterness I just don't want to miss out on the hop flavours and aromas from a whirlpool addition at too low a temp

The literature suggests for more hop flavour infusion from your steep, try keeping your whirlpool steep temp between flameout & above 80°C.

I hope that helps.

Lusty.

Edited by Beerlust

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21 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

It occurred to me that, in many cases, instructions say to cover the brew while steeping hops. Should I be putting the lid on my urn if adding hops at (or after) flameout?

When making a separate "hop tea" I've seen it advised, but for DMS related reasons I've read it is not advised after a full AG boil.

20 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

I still haven’t settled on an “adjustment” number I like. Currently just adding 10 minutes but with mixed results

You "no-chill" & store your hot wort in a tin shed to cool under ambient conditions. In the winter the temp in your shed will be vastly different than in the height of summer, thus I would suggest your wort will take longer to cool down in the summer than it would in the winter. Add the complexity of different hop varieties into the equation & that's probably why you're experiencing mixed results.

Perhaps trying a more regular smaller addition hop schedule throughout the boil might help. It would certainly take the pressure off this 10 minute addition to achieve the levels you are looking for.

Cheers & best of luck sorting it out.

Lusty.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Beerlust said:

When making a separate "hop tea" I've seen it advised, but for DMS related reasons I've read it is not advised after a full AG boil.

I would have thought that at the end of a 60-90 minute boil, DMS would no longer be an issue.

I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

Edited by Hairy

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7 minutes ago, Hairy said:

I would have thought that at the end of a 60-90 minute boil, DMS would no longer be an issue.

BeerSmith Blog: Dimethyl Sulfides (DMS) in Home Brewed Beer

Quote

...Since DMS needs to evaporate off during the boil, it is important not to cover your pot. Covering a brew kettle during the boil will prevent the DMS from evaporating and create a beer with much higher levels of DMS.

Rapidly cooling your wort after boiling is also important. The SMM to DMS conversion continues at temperatures well below boiling, so DMS is produced even while the wort is cooling after the boil. However, unlike the mash, DMS produced while cooling cannot be boiled off. This conversion continues even if the hot wort is vented. For every hour you have hot wort sitting around, you will produce approximately a 30% increase in DMS.

 

16 minutes ago, Hairy said:

I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

Interestingly in that same article it mentions that during fermentation the production of CO² helps to remove DMS from the beer. Vigorous ale strains tend to produce lower DMS levels & in darker malted beers DMS is less detectable. The main beers to maybe be a little more concerned with this potential problem are lighter malted, lager yeast strain fermented beers.

You don't hear of many people complaining about DMS related problems these days, so I do tend to agree with your statement not to worry too much. That said, in certain situations with some recipes it is certainly something I would be mindful of.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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I hope not to start up the cubing ‘debate’ but I have read that article and similar info talking about the evils of cubing which should result in DMS.

I have never experienced any issues myself nor have I heard from anyone else experiencing DMS in cubed beers. I often cube wort at a temp in the 90s and it would remain hot for a while.

I doubt putting a lid on the kettle during the whirlpool would cause any problems.

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1 hour ago, Hairy said:

I have never experienced any issues myself nor have I heard from anyone else experiencing DMS in cubed beers.

After years of reading forums, blogs etc etc I've only once read of someone claiming that DMS ruined their beer...  and that was a non-cubed brew.  I have a hunch this concern over DMS is largely unfounded and in practice it's pretty much a non-issue.  Perhaps yet another one of those "it could be a problem, therefore it is" things I frequently see mentioned in homebrewing circles.   I may be wrong but there does seem to be a distinct lack of solid evidence to support the concern.  

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I think the maltsters have all but eliminated this DMS issue, as long as your not boiling with the lid on, it’ll be fine

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Ruddy, I hope you don't mind if I change the subject slightly from whether to cover the hop stand with a lid, but I just wanted ask how many grams of hops you guys add at FO / for the hop stand?

I just finished reading a bunch of interviews with award winning owners of American breweries making hazy IPAs (at the end of Scott Janish's new book on the subject). The professional brewers all make huge whirlpool additions: none less than 2.5g/L, and some use 5.7g/L. 

Cheers,

Christina.

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4 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

I think the maltsters have all but eliminated this DMS issue, as long as your not boiling with the lid on, it’ll be fine

But hops can contribute DMS too, can't they? 🤔

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287458934_Volatile_Sulfur_Compounds_in_Hops_and_Residual_Concentrations_in_Beer_-_A_Review

My understanding is that they are not an issue unless doing massive whirlpool / hop stand additions. 

Cheers,

Christina.

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11 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

I think the maltsters have all but eliminated this DMS issue, as long as your not boiling with the lid on, it’ll be fine

Hmmm... perhaps not....   ?

http://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/

"Most brewers probably don’t think their beer (especially ales) contains detectable levels of DMS, however, an interesting study of thirteen commercially available beers were tested with surprising results. Seven domestic ales, two domestic lagers, two imported lagers, and two non-alcoholic lagers were among the beers tested and found that DMS was at or above flavor thresholds (30-60 µg/L) in all but one of the beers, which shows that DMS was contributing to the flavor profile of the beers. Surprisingly, DMS levels in the ales were comparable with the lagers, which are known for producing higher amounts. The flavor threshold for DMS is relatively low at 30 µg/L, so it doesn’t take much to contribute to the flavor of a beer."

 

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