Flameout / whirlpool hops

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't think DMS isn't a problem if bad practices are used, but at the same time I haven't noticed it in any of my AG beers, all of which have been cubed.  Even the more recent ones where I've put the lid on the urn after creating a whirlpool haven't exhibited it. 

It may simply be a case of it being there but not in high enough amounts to be detected. 

[King Ruddager]

9 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

how many grams of hops you guys add at FO / for the hop stand?

Usually 50g, which is a hair under 2g/L for me. For this brew I think it was a bit more than that ... possibly 65, or 2.4 g/L

[The Captain!!]

@ChristinaS1

I just went back through my recipes my flameout additions are usually around 2g/l for pales and ipas. 

Hopstand additions for pales are around 2.4g/l and IPAs are around 5g/l

 

[Beerlust]

21 hours ago, The Captain!! said:

I think the maltsters have all but eliminated this DMS issue, as long as your not boiling with the lid on, it’ll be fine

+1

[ben 10]

18 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

but I just wanted ask how many grams of hops you guys add at FO / for the hop stand?

All my beers are Boil + Flame Out.

looking through IPAs 100, 130, 150g 

[ben 10]

In a 20 litre brew

[ChristinaS1]

According to this study, flameout additions are where it is at, in terms of increasing fruity flavours, more than dry hopping.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-2017-2144-01?src=recsys

Cheers,

Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

On 10/5/2019 at 12:03 AM, King Ruddager said:

It occurred to me that, in many cases, instructions say to cover the brew while steeping hops. Should I be putting the lid on my urn if adding hops at (or after) flameout?

There is an article about DMS on Milk the Funk.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide

The way I understand it, there are two precursors to DMS: SMM and DMSO. The main culprit is SMM, which gets decomposed into DMS at any temperature above 80C. During the boil, the DMS formed is volatilized. There may be some SMM left in the wort after the boil, depending on how long and how vigorously it is boiled. If you cover your urn during the hop stand, the DMS formed during cooling from 100C to 80C will condense on the lid and fall back into the wort. Best to leave the pot uncovered until the hop stand temperature has dropped below 80C, and then cover.

I have typically put the lid on my kettle during the hop stand. Given I do not boil my partial mash wort very long, so that there is likely plenty of SMM left, I will start waiting with putting the lid on after adding the FO hops until the temperature is below 80C. 

Glad you asked the question @King Ruddager. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[King Ruddager]

Wouldn't that also mean cubing above 80° and no-chilling would result in DMS?

[ChristinaS1]

29 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Wouldn't that also mean cubing above 80° and no-chilling would result in DMS?

Possibly, but there may be other factors at play. I don't know if this has been studied. Have not bothered to look into it as I don't no-chill. My guess is that if one was planning to no-chill, a 90 minute boil would be a better idea than a 60 minute, especially if using Pilsner malt. But lagers are kind of sulphur-y anyway.

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ChristinaS1

[ChristinaS1]

So how do no chillers do hop stands? Do you:

A.) Do it in the kettle before transferring to the cube? If so, what is the temperature when you finally do transfer? Has it dropped below 80C?

B.) Transfer the nearly 100C wort to the cube first and add the flameout / hop stand hops to the cube, making adjustments to your bittering addition? I guess in this scenario, the hop stand lasts for however long you leave the wort in the cube, before transferring to the FV?

Thanks for the info. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by ChristinaS1

[King Ruddager]

Both, but in the case of B (aka "cube hopping") it's not near 100 as I've whirlpooled and let it settle.

[Otto Von Blotto]

2 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

So how do no chillers do hop stands? Do you:

A.) Do it in the kettle before transferring to the cube? If so, what is the temperature when you finally do transfer? Has it dropped below 80C?

B.) Transfer the nearly 100C wort to the cube first and add the flameout / hop stand hops to the cube, making adjustments to your bittering addition? I guess in this scenario, the hop stand lasts for however long you leave the wort in the cube, before transferring to the FV?

Thanks for the info. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

I'm assuming by hop stand you aren't referring to flameout additions?

What I do and this is mainly for pale ales, is do a ten minute boil addition, a flameout addition and a cube addition (there is also a small FWH/bittering addition early). 

The process I use is to add the flameout addition, let it steep for about 10 minutes or so, then hoist the hop spider up above the urn and allow it to drain for a few minutes before squeezing it out. After that I create a whirlpool, put the lid on and let it sit for 15 minutes. The cube hops are added to the cube during this time, and then the wort is transferred into it as normal. I haven't measured it but I suspect it sits somewhere between 85-90 degrees after the whirlpool, and loses another few degrees over the transfer. It sits for about 10 minutes to sanitise it then I chuck it in the pool for a couple of hours. I haven't tasted anything that might be linked to DMS in any of these beers.

Other styles that don't use cube hops, or much in the way of flameout hops don't get the pool treatment. 

I refuse to transfer wort into cubes below 80 degrees because I don't believe it's hot enough to provide maximum protection against it getting infected, and I'm not gonna spend a day making wort just for that to happen when it can be easily prevented by doing it properly.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Beerlust]

10 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

According to this study, flameout additions are where it is at, in terms of increasing fruity flavours, more than dry hopping.

I've never approached dry hopping with the intent to add flavour. Only aroma. I agree loading hops late in the boil or at flameout/whirlpool will produce a lot of hop flavour.

In recent times I've backed off loading up large amounts of late hopping which in certain cases can result in a fruit bomb of a beer, in preference to a little less weight & more evenly spaced so that I can taste the malt character(s) of the beer, that I enjoy.

I like a good hop fruit bomb, but all the time & I find they become a bit too much.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[ChristinaS1]

@Otto Von Blotto 

By hop stand I mean any additions made after flameout. This would include an addition made as the heat is turned off, which is what I think of as a flameout addition, plus any made to the kettle at lower temperatures.

Anyway, I am curious how you can be so sure what the "proper" way to no chill is Kelsey? To call something "proper" you are are either relying on tradition or science. Passive cooling was the norm in the days before electricity and running water, but there would have been many different customs around the world, so which is proper? What is works on a large scale might not on a small scale, and vice versa, and what works in one type of vessel, might not in another, etc, etc.

In terms of "maximum protection" against infection, wouldn't that mean transferring the wort from the kettle to the cube ASAP, and not waiting for half an hour?

I tried to find out what a safe temperature is, to leave wort exposed to the air, in terms of infection protection.  The author of the Milk the Funk article thought it safe to keep the lid off until 60C / 140F, and he supplied a reference (I only read the abstract, as you have to pay to read the article), but that is 3C below what is usually considered pasteurization temperature.  Personally am not comfortable leaving wort exposed that long . Elsewhere I read that some bacteria can tolerate temperatures of 71C / 160F, but it was not referenced....I would be very appreciative if you could point me to some evidence that 1.) 85-90C is safe from an infection perspective but that 80C is not, or 2.) that transferring to a closed vessel between 100-80C does not result in levels of DMS above 30-50 microgram/L (the taste threshold). All I have been able to find on that score is reports by home brewers that they don't notice DMS in their beer, using their method, whatever their variation is.

But I hope you don't get me wrong, I support the idea of no chilling.  If I were doing full volume boils, I would move to no-chilling too, because it is a very practical, low cost method of cooling.

Cheers Kelsey,

Christina.

[Norris!]

@ChristinaS1

The worry about oxidation is a worry that I don't find has a high risk or concern for you or most homebrewers. I believe in it and know it happens but one has to weigh the benefits to adjusting a process over the costs, disadvantages and advantages. Case in point, many breweries still open ferment. They are commercial and they include the effects into there calculations, because they have tried it over and over.

Worrying about infection is a real concern but if the sanitation is good then the hot wort should kill most things flying around and the process should account for any issues or people wouldn't do it. Kelsey's point was that he does not feel comfortable transferring wort to sit for however long when it is under 80c. That is fair considering he has done over 40 batches, probably more, using the method. I see your point about Kelsey's use of the word proper but focusing on that over the results and method to produce said results, is not productive. 

Not everything is going to have emperical evidence something's comes from doing. Maybe it is fine to transfer the wort when it is at 63c to 79c maybe the infection risk increases maybe it doesnt. Maybe the beer tastes better, maybe it doesn't, but it comes down to doing and trying, and how it fits into the brewday process. If the output is as expected I am only adjusting the process for a clear and definable gain that outweighs the disadvantages.

Brulosophy tried to no chill, they didn't even adjust the hop schedule or try to read up on what others have done and just did it and said it made bitter without leveraging the knowledge of other homebrewers.

Either way, brew for your brewery not ask others to prove their brewing method is better. Ends justify means, this is an example.

https://beerandbrewing.com/4-reasons-to-try-open-fermentation/

[ChristinaS1]

@Norris! That is an interesting article, but don't think I will be trying open fermentation. LOL!

Totally agree with you about brewing for your brewery. I was just reacting to Kelsey's use of the word "proper."

To be clear, I actually feel the same way as Kelsey about exposing wort to the air at temperatures below 80C being risky for infection, but I don't go so far as to imply that practice is improper. And earlier he said something along the lines of DMS only being a problem if "bad practices" are used, yet he transfers to a closed container at 85-90C, which in theory is a "bad practice."

Kelsey says he is not noticing any DMS in his brews. The most likely explanations are 1.) his transfer temperature is actually lower than he thinks and there is very little DMS present, or 2.) the DMS is above flavour threshold but he isn't bothered by it....Given that 12 out 13 commercial brews in that study had enough DMS to contribute to their flavour profile, we are all probably so used to it that it tastes normal to us. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited October 11, 2019 by ChristinaS1

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think the above 80 degrees thing came about because of the ridiculous supposed botulism risk from no chilling back when it first started becoming popular. However, unless the wort is being pitched the day or two after, it stands to reason that the lower the temperature at transfer, the higher the risk of that wort getting infected before yeast is pitched. 

I've measured the temperature of the wort before once, after the 20-25 minute stand post boil and after the transfer. On that day, it measured 92 and 88 degrees respectively. Back then I wasn't doing a whirlpool, so accounting for that and the slightly extra time it takes, plus the open flameout steep for 10 minutes, I figure it drops down more around 86-88 before the transfer and loses a few degrees during it. 

According to theory it would be considered bad practice, but I can't taste anything wrong with the beers, and I'd be close to 150 batches by now. It's either been in every beer I've ever had, both my own and commercial, or it's not there in high enough amounts to be noticed. Certainly not tasted the cooked corn/cabbage flavour in any beers I've drunk. 

[Beerlust]

Hypothetically if I was a no-chiller (don't worry people that ain't gonna happen!), I'd only be concerned if I was transferring wort at under approx. 60°C. Why 60°C? because this is recognised as being around the lower end of typically safe pasteurisation temperatures.

Cheers,

Lusty.