Take THAT, BJCP style guidelines

[Otto Von Blotto]

5 minutes ago, NewBrews said:

I think we best do something about this! Who’s keen for next year from QLD?

I'll be trying to get an entry or two in next year in the state comp. 

I'm guessing Lusty's comments are somewhat tongue in cheek anyway. The beer scene in Brisbane at least is a lot more than Milton cranberries these days.

[Beerlust]

Very much tongue in cheek. 

I reckon you'd do well in your state comp with the Pilsner & Red Ale.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

The pilsner is one that I would like to enter, mainly for feedback.  I'd like to enter the red ale as well but it doesn't seem to fit neatly into any style category. Best Bitter would be the closest numbers wise, and although it uses American hops, they don't dominate it.

[Titan]

16 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

The pilsner is one that I would like to enter, mainly for feedback.  I'd like to enter the red ale as well but it doesn't seem to fit neatly into any style category. Best Bitter would be the closest numbers wise, and although it uses American hops, they don't dominate it.

Maybe here.

34C. Experimental Beer This is explicitly a catch-all category for any beer that does not fit into an existing style description. No beer is ever “out of style” in this style, unless it fits elsewhere. This is the last resort for any beer entered into a competition. Overall Impression: Varies, but should be a unique experience. Aroma: Varies. Appearance: Varies. Flavor: Varies. Mouthfeel: Varies. Comments: This style is the ultimate in creativity, since it cannot represent a well-known commercial beer (otherwise it would be a clone beer) and cannot fit into any other existing Specialty-Type style (including those within this major category). Entry Instructions: The entrant must specify the special nature of the experimental beer, including the special ingredients or processes that make it not fit elsewhere in the guidelines. The entrant must provide vital statistics for the beer, and either a brief sensory description or a list of ingredients used in making the beer. Without this information, judges will have no basis for comparison. Vital Statistics: OG, FG, IBUs, SRM and ABV will vary depending on the declared beer. Commercial Examples: None Tags: specialty-beer

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's a possibility too. I put a couple of different styles for it in beersmith and the best bitter was the one that it had the black markers in the green on the most aspects. The only one out was the color which was like 0.4 EBC too dark. That could easily be fixed by reducing the black malt used in it, since it doesn't really contribute to the flavor anyway.

[Beerlust]

20 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

... The only one out was the color which was like 0.4 EBC too dark.

I doubt the judge assessing it that has likely been sampling beer all day will be able to spot that it's 0.4 EBC over. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

4 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

I doubt the judge assessing it that has likely been sampling beer all day will be able to spot that it's 0.4 EBC over. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

That was kind of my point; it fits the style guidelines for Best Bitter more closely than any other style other than obviously the ones that cover just about any beer. Should be a bit easier to prepare some entries next year too as I expect by then I'll have a fridge for my second fermenter.

[Mark D Pirate]

Appeance is only worth 3 points , I'd be sneaking it in as a

British golden ale (12 a)

  if I remember your original recipe properly it had enough hops to slide in here well, I fiddled with it and didn't keep the original 

American hops are allowed , mild to moderate hop presence , low malt 

20-45 ibu 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'll have a look on beersmith tomorrow and see how it lines up. Still got almost a year to mull it over in any case

[headmaster]

On 8/8/2018 at 9:00 AM, headmaster said:

Back on to the topic of BJCP style guidelines, the organisation does have in train 4 new styles to be added to the next release, detailed here: http://dev.bjcp.org/provisional-styles/

These are: 

17A. British Strong Ale: Burton Ale

21B. Specialty IPA: New England IPA

X4. Catharina Sour

X5. New Zealand Pilsner

If you wanted to submit one of the first two of these now, they should go in under those codes, 17A and 21B with a specific explanation about what it is. 

There is also the experimental category where if listed on the comp schedule, you can submit pretty much anything that resembles beer that does not fit in any category. 

I must read about the Catharina Sour, have never heard of it or where it hails from. 

Great to see they are going to include the NZ Pils, I have made a few of these with Motueka and is a great variation to the original Saaz based Czech classic. 

Have been reading up on the Catharina Sour, this was invented in Brazil, about 2015, basically a stronger berliner weisse, around 5% abv, but always with fresh fruit added, ideally tropical fruit.  Interesting article here https://byo.com/article/catharina-sour-brazilian-kettle-soured-fruit-beer/

I have effectively been making these with my last two cube sours, but closer to 4.3%. I was wanting to make something closer to 5% so looks like I will be making a Catharina Sour!

I have just got the pulp out of 6kg of passionfruits (2kg net pulp, probably enough for two batches) and have bought 4kg cherries, both at flemington markets, $20 for the Passion and $20 for the cherries. 

So will run a passion fruit then cherry for my next batches for my Sour Summer range

[joolbag]

Great post headmaster and I just read that whole article. I'm hooked on brewing sours and I haven't even fermented and tasted my first batch! Already planning the second. Will be something like this

[The Captain!!]

Not to be picky at the style of Catharina Sour, it was originally produced in the localle of Catharina and using local fruits from that area. Guava’s, tropical fruits, etc. 

I guess that’s what set the style apart from the Berliner Weiss. As well as the ABV. Great style of beer. 

Experimental Homebrew also did a podcast on the style a while back. https://www.experimentalbrew.com/recipes/bruxa-catharina-sour-guava

I have recently tried this style brewed by a friend made with Feijoa. So effing Tasty!!!!!

Surprised the kiwis aren’t all over that to be honest. 

[headmaster]

9 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

I guess that’s what set the style apart from the Berliner Weiss. As well as the ABV. 

Good stuff Jools and The Captain. 

The Berliner Weisse traditionally has no fruit added as well, so the modern use of fruits really result in a new style, the Catharina being that. 

If you enter a Berliner Weisse with fruit in a comp it goes in as a Fruit Beer, and you nominate the base style as Berliner Weisse. 

Now we have a dedicated BJCP style, I'd say the popularity will spread. I hope this category will be included in this year's state and national comps 

[joolbag]

I brewed my Catharina Sour wort over the long weekend. It's basically my Berliner recipe, soured in a cube (thanks @headmaster)

Will end up around the 4.5% mark and my friend had a bumper passion fruit harvest this year. I have a kilogram of pulp to throw into the beer when it is finished. Loving the cube souring technique at the moment!

[The Captain!!]

Nice work @joolbag.

looking forward to seeing how this goes for you in the glass

[headmaster]

I brewed one too! Ran the mash yesterday while we were out for the day, plugged in my ITC-310 and gave that a maiden run, a bit risky leaving it unattended for the first go, with the magnetic drive pump spinning, pumping wort through a stainless coil sitting in a plastic Target brand $7.50 kitchen kettle  

I guess if something went amiss with the heat exchanger setup, the kettle will not boil dry as it will hit 100c and the kettle cutout will kill the power. 

So I ran 2.2kg gladfield pils, 2.2kg gladfield wheat malt (have just gone halvies in a 25kg bag for $32  ) and 500g fine Burghul, sydney water, 6g Calcium Chloride and 10ml 88% lactic to bring mash PH down from 5.8+ to 5.29 

Programmed it to run for 50 mins with 44c target, another 50 mins 54c target, 150 mins 65c and 20 mins 72c then to mashout 78c in time for me arriving back home to raise the grain basket, add lactic to reduce to 4.5ph and rack to cube, into swimming pool for half an hour to hit 44c, pitched 750ml lacto starter made from two types of yoghurt and 100g DME in 1L of water, in the easiyo the night before, that measured in at 3.3ph. 

Now in the cube, with zero headspace, so no very minimal risk of wacky off flavours, inside the brewfridge at 42c being kept warm by my trusty 5M 25W reptile heater cord and the STC1000. 

Will bring to boil tonight if PH is between 3.2 to 3.5, boil for 30 mins or so and add 15g saaz and 15g hersbruker at 5 mins, then cube it again, (which will sanitise my cube of lactobacillus), when cool pitch K97. 

I too have some passionfruit pulp, bought 6kg box as I mentioned before, about 1.5kg pulp in the freezer from these, so I could use that at end fermentation or the frozen pasteurised cherries 4kg I processed recently. Think I'll go the passionfruit though, to compare with yours and also another friend from the club who is making one of these passionfruit Catharinas as well.

I did not pasteurise the passionfruit and probably should have washed before cutting up, but the acidity (which comes from ascorbic acid) in the passionfruit should hopefully wipe out any bad bacteria, the only issue will be wild yeasts and possibly 'good' bacteria that may survive in the pulp and the freezing process. I may still heat up the pulp to 75c to pasteurise, not sure yet, what do you think chaps?

I was also planning on squeezing the pulp through some clean sanitised cheesecloth or chux to filter seeds and pulp out, the juice is a lot more mobile I have read after freezing the pulp. 

This one had sky high mash efficiency of around 86% so the OG was 1048 for 27 litres. So after boiling for a short while, should be 1051 or so, and will be on the stronger side of the Catharina style. 

 

 

 

[headmaster]

An update to this brew, I got home from work, left getting around to it until about 7pm.. I was glad to see absolutely no increase in headspace inside the cube. This continues to amaze me. Of course when no-chill cubing normally I fully expect that the thing is effectively canned and should not see any gas being generated inside the cube. 

But when you inoculate it with a whole bunch of bacteria from some homemade yoghurt, then stick it in a 42°C environment, despite seeing this happen three times now, it is remarkable that the thing doesn't blow up overnight. The marvels of anaerobic fermentation.. I was motivated to try this by looking at the same lack of gas produced in my easiyo yoghurt making process, the cube sour is very similar, just on a larger scale. The pre-acidification is the insurance policy I guess.  

So anyway, popped the cap on the cube calibrated ph meter and measured, it was a tad too low at 3.11... so not much I can do about that apart from blending it with a non-soured beer, if that indeed turns out to be too sour. But the sour taste perception is less about ph and more about titratable acidity or TA, but I don't have the gear to measure that right now. 

So if I brew (and the yeasties can handle a ph that low) and add my passionfruit pulp or juice and the final beer is too tart, I will brew another basic wheatbeer and blend until I get the right level. Going to re-hydrate a pack of Safale K97 german ale yeast tonight and pitch. This yeast is good for this style I believe from a bit of research I did. Handles acid quite well and authentic Deutsche flavours. My strawberry berliner was made with this and it was better than my nectarine one made with US05, but there are of course a lot of other variables at play. I suspect the nectarine one was a tad too sour as well.  

 

[headmaster]

I did taste it as well, and the acidity was 'pronounced' but will see how it tastes at the end of the fruit fermentation stage. I have read on the Milk The Funk Wiki I think it was, that sometimes by adding fruit, even if acidic fruit like passionfruit (that has quite a bit of ascorbic acid or vitC) it can actually raise the PH after fermenting out. 

 

[joolbag]

On 1/29/2019 at 3:23 PM, headmaster said:

I may still heat up the pulp to 75c to pasteurise, not sure yet, what do you think chaps?

Hey Mark I'm going to live on the edge and NOT pasteurise any of my fruit additions.  I will try my luck to see how frozen raspberries dumped straight into the fermenter for the BW will go.  I have read and heard that heating them up will change some of the natural aromas and flavours from the fruit.  If it gets a secondary yeast infection that ruins the beer, well I would have learnt a very valuable lesson!  Am hoping the low pH and existing alcohol and very little residual sugars will limit any naturally occurring yeast from taking hold.

 

Interesting that you got your beer down to pH 3.11!  My Catharina was down to 3.26 after 38hrs in the cube.  I admit I am just like you and check the cube tentatively each time, expecting a swollen mess, but pleasantly surprised it all went to plan.

 

For the Catharina Sour I measured the gravity before and after pitching lacto.  I must have a measurement error because i can't explain how i got 1.046 before souring and 1.041 after fermentation.  2 points I can understand, but 5?!  After boiling and racking to cube I got 1.039. 

 

Also with my BW that is fermenting and has a low OG of 1.026, I checked after 3 days in the FV and it had only dropped to 1.014!  Very slow going and a fellow sour beer brewer explained that he finds his yeast get a bit of acid shock and take a bit longer to get going.  My yeast is WLP029 Germal Ale / Kolsch.  I don't know if this yeast handles acid well or not.  Did you experience this with your K97 Strawberry BW and your US-05 Nectarine sour?

[headmaster]

Hi Jools,

Using the rasperries unpasteurised is what I would probably do as well if store bought, but I am really not sure how this would go long term. 

We add dry hops that are also unpasteurised, and in fact they do cause stability issues, as Stone and Wood found out, with overcarbonation and an extra 1% ABV or slightly more, that comes from an enzyme that is active in hops, that can convert complex dextrinous sugars to simpler ones, within a massive 1°C to 60°C. Stone and Wood copped a massive fine for selling beer with incorrect ABV. Now they pasteurise their bottles after conditioning, at great additional expense. I've only just learnt about this phenomenon, as have some craft breweries, but it was actually known about way back in 1893 where it was documented. Known as Dry Hop Creep . So that's a case of humans learning something and having to re-learn it only 120 years later.. 

Adding unpasteurised fruit to mixed fermentation or 'wild' sours is less risky as they are usually aged for so long and stability checked over months such that they should be stable for bottle conditioning, but it is a gamble as to what any wild yeast and bacteria may produce, might be amazing or not so amazing!

If kegging it would be an easier choice as no risk of bottle bombs. I would just advise you bottle at least one in PET and use it as a squeeze test carbonation meter, I do this as a matter of course anyway. 

If you think it will be drunk pretty quickly also less of a big deal. 

Actually last night measured the PH again after it had been boiled for 30 mins, hops added (25g Saaz 25g Hersbruker at 5 mins) and it had moderated to 3.27ph, very similar to yours, So not sure why, I didn't measure PH last two times post boil so cant comment on whether this is normal, or if a measurement error on my part. 

About your gravity drop, I would say a measurement error possibly. In all three cube sours I've only see a drop of half to one point. With this latest one going from 1.052 to 1.0515 on the refractometer.  I have seen large differences in OG depending on where you sample it from. If you sample it from the kettle dregs after racking to cube, those dregs, despite pulling a clear sample, are always 2 to 3 SG points higher, without fail. 

Also not sure about the Kolsch yeast, but I have a vague memory of reading that it was a good choice for these. 

Regarding lag due to acid, after rehydrating my new pack of K97 and pitching last night, it's off and running 10 hrs later with a good 1cm krausen, pic attached. from this morning. 

Notes from the other two below, they did ferment quickly with both types of yeast actually. 

Notes taken from the strawberry one say: 

Pitched 300ml compacted yeast: Safale K97 harvested from Belgian pale 45 days ago at 1:00am 25th Oct fridge set to 18c
6 hrs later 3mm krausen indicating healthy start despite acidity. .

Sat 27ictwas 1013. Added 3kg strawberry coulis now 1018. But could be higher due to not mixed

SO to adjust the original gravity of 1039 to 1045.

Went nuts after stirring the yeast up on the bottom. Had to contain the krausen.. large trub. maybe filter the strawberries next time.

So looks like finishing up 5 days later on the 1 Nov. Measure gravity soon.

Measured 1003. cold crashed with gelatine sunday the 4th Nov.

Relevant notes from the Nectarine with US05

OG was 1038. 
Us05 pitched 18c wed 28th nov

First Dec racked onto 3kg nectarines pureed and cooked up to 70c. Ripe. Measured grav was 1007 before rack. Set to 17 as may go nuts
Plan to harvest yeast from primary.
Looks like already finishing up Sunday 2nd Dec. No Vesuvius this time as racked to secondary, reducing yeast cell count.

8 Dec was 1006 again. Time to cold crash set to minus 0.5 tasting better
Crashing at minus 0.5 

 

Photo of Catharina this morning at 18c 10 hrs post k97 pitch

[joolbag]

3 hours ago, headmaster said:

Stone and Wood copped a massive fine for selling beer with incorrect ABV.

Wow, this I did not know!

 

3 hours ago, headmaster said:

I have seen large differences in OG depending on where you sample it from. If you sample it from the kettle dregs after racking to cube, those dregs, despite pulling a clear sample, are always 2 to 3 SG points higher, without fail. 

This is also news to me.  I used to take a sample from the top before racking to cube, but have recently changed to taking the dregs as it is easier and less wasteful.  I will do my own experiment next brewday and take two samples and compare.  I suspect the OG drop was a measurement error.  Just wracking my brain trying to think where I could have measured incorrectly, and which measurement was incorrect!  Never mind, it will all become beer in the end.

Nice to see your Catharina Sour is fermenting already.  Mine won't go in for at least a week or two.  I'll measure the SG of my Berliner tonight and if it is finished (krausen looked to be dropping this morning at Day#6) then I will hit it with 1kg of thawed raspberries in primary.

 

Unfort I will not be able to make the ISB meeting next Wednesday as my wife is out and I have to feed, bathe and put the kids to sleep.  I really wanted to listen to the kettle sour talk and sample the different methods/innoculation of kettle souring.  Darn it.

[headmaster]

Brewcon 2018 detailed presentation of research here, quite interesting. 

http://brewcon.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/180628_1200-Final-BrewCon-Dry-Hop-Creep-21.6.18.pdf

Even if the yeast is dead, if the dry hop enzymes are alive, the beer gets sweeter over time to the palate. 

Having a brewing refractometer really helps with not wasting a whole test tube of beer.  I have one of these, good value. Local shops will have these for a lot more $$$ so best to buy OS. 

Have recently started trusting refract measurements for FG as well, by using the calculator in brewcipher.xls.  Works a treat, you just need to know the OG in brix, and measure the FG in brix. It's actually quite easy. 

Not sure why the trub dregs are higher in og, probably the way the sugar settles during the stand. 

Sorry to hear you can't make that meeting, that's a shame.. Anyway I do understand having three young ones myself.. Not easy to juggle. 

 

 

[joolbag]

I feel we have really hijacked this thread and should have one dedicated to Berliner Weisse and Cathariba Sour, but oh well. The horse has bolted!

 

I check the gravity of my Berliner this evening as the Krauseb has mostly dropped with some floaties lingering away. It was 1.007-8. This equates to approx 73% attenuation which is in line with what I expect from WLP029. It is mostly done despite the slow start. I am going to "dry hop" with my 1kg of thawed supermarket freezer raspberries tonight in primary. I am not harvesting yeast from the trub; I harvested from starter before pitching. Tastes good and definitely.more complex sourness than my gose which used acidulated malts. Hard to explain but a little like whey? Still very clean and I think with raspberries will come out well. If it is anything close to Wayward Brewery's raspberry "sour puss" Berliner, I will call it a success!

[headmaster]

Yeah we have messed this thread up a tad, waay off topic.. 

Sounds like your brew is doing just fine. I would expect it to really get going again when you add the berries. Are you going to puree them? If not it may take a long time for them to ferment out. 

I know what you mean about the whey like character. This is what I have experienced as well using the yoghurt starter, and to be expected. I suspect yours will be like the famous Wayward Sour Puss, (the beer that started it all for them) not sure if a kilo will nail it but they are very strong flavoured berries. Jay from the Rare Barrel in the US mentioned on a Sour Hour podcast once that the best performing fruits for adding to beer are Raspberries and Apricots.

Strawberries often end up with a nail polish remover off flavour from Acetone and Ethyl Acetate production. I found this was detectable with my 2nd last bottle of Strawberry BW stored in PET that I tasted recently, that bottle endured many days of high 20's temps maybe 30c for a while.. I have one last champagne bottle of this stuff that I will be bringing to the ISB meet on 8th feb and will be very keen to see if it too has this flavour now, to compare the PET to glass storage. 

[joolbag]

Damn I missing out on your strawberry sour as well!

 

This is a bit of a control ferment with sour beer. 1kg of raspberries may not be enough, was initially going to do 1.5kg but decided to start low and up it from there if required. Raspberries are pretty strong like u mentioned. The beer is already a nice shade of pink, 18hrs after adding fruit.

 

I didn't puree them because I find frozen raspberries turn to mush anyway. Mostly mush with a few solid berries. I can see berries floating on top so I'll see how this goes over the course of a week. I may regret my decision!