Brew Day!! Watcha' got, eh!? no.3

[Ramjet]

...Boobs are great too.

 

Brewers see these as not so much a hop as an adjunct' date=' best when young as they don't stand up well with time.

 

Typical characteristics include a firm body with good mouthfeel, but can result in pronounced bitterness if compared with the style you already have at home. [img']biggrin[/img]

[LeCoq/Rooster]

And this one just now, using 2nd steep of Carapils, Amber, and Choc malts. I'm also experimenting with my first yeast mix as suggested by pro brewer Tim at hop Dog.

 

LeCoq & Roo Farmhouse Pale Ale v1.0

 

2nd steep of 75g Carapils, 50g Choc Malt, & 200g Amber

350g Light DME

150g Wheat DME

50g Destrose

150g Honey

 

45min. EKG 15g

15min. EKG 20g

10min. Hallertau 10g

0min. EKG 10g/Hallertau 10g

 

Fill to 7 litres

 

Yeast: Cooper Yeast + Day 4 add (tablespoon of Belle Saison 2nd Gen)

 

Predicted OG: 1033 Actual OG: 1021

Predicted FG: 1007

Predicted ABV: 3.4%

 

Again, my OG is lower than the Brewer'sFriend software predicted.

 

Not sure about dry hopping this one as I'd like to work toward a low IBU for style, but maybe 5g EKG when i drop in the Belle Saison yeast.

 

I'm thinking I should try low priming based on suggestions in here. Need to do some research in how to do it.

 

[Beerlust]

Hi Rooster.

And this one just now' date=' using 2nd steep of Carapils, Amber, and Choc malts.[/quote']

Can you please explain what you mean by "...using a 2nd steep..."?

 

Predicted OG: 1033 Actual OG: 1021....Again' date=' my OG is lower than the Brewer'sFriend software predicted. [/quote']

Something is obviously wrong here. It could be a setting in the calculator, or something real relating to the a fore mentioned steep. Not sure as yet.

 

Fill to 7 litres.

Total ferment volume equals 7 litres?

 

Not sure about dry hopping this one as I'd like to work toward a low IBU for style...

Dry hopping won't add any extra bitterness (IBU) to the brew, just aroma.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

[LeCoq/Rooster]

Hi Rooster.

And this one just now' date=' using 2nd steep of Carapils, Amber, and Choc malts.[/quote']

Can you please explain what you mean by "...using a 2nd steep..."?

 

Predicted OG: 1033 Actual OG: 1021....Again' date=' my OG is lower than the Brewer'sFriend software predicted. [/quote']

Something is obviously wrong here. It could be a setting in the calculator, or something real relating to the a fore mentioned steep. Not sure as yet.

 

Fill to 7 litres.

Total ferment volume equals 7 litres?

 

Not sure about dry hopping this one as I'd like to work toward a low IBU for style...

Dry hopping won't add any extra bitterness (IBU) to the brew' date=' just aroma.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.[/quote']

 

Re IBU's, i meant perceived IBU's which I have preciously been told is affected by dry hopping.

 

7 litres as I'm using an alternative FV - an 8.5L storage bucket; and i'm just testing out my own recipes so keeping it small so i don't waste ingredients and $ if it doesn't work out.

 

Re 2nd steeping, it is just steeping the grains again. What i heard on this podcast (which i'm just listening to again to make sure I've got the details correct) is that you steep at 65C for 15min and drain, then steep the same grains again in fresh water at 70C for 15min - 20min depending on how light the grains are.

 

I reckon i've got something wrong there and so am listening to the podcast again. That said, a recipe Ben10 created gave me different outcomes when i punched it in BrewersFriend.

[Beerlust]

No probs with the 7 litre volume, I just needed you to clarify that. When looking for answers concerning your Original Gravity issues, it seemed best to ask.

 

I already had my suspicions about your 2nd steep & what you were possibly doing. Your reply has confirmed this. The bulk of the body (measured as specific gravity) obtained from your grain steeps/mashes, will always come from the "first runnings".

 

What you are effectively doing with this "2nd steep", is rinsing or sparging or obtaining "second runnings" from whatever remains in the grains after the 1st steep. The body obtained from these second runnings will be considerably lower than what is obtained from the first runnings. Due to you only doing a small batch of beer, this is limiting how much body you can extract from these already used grains, & is thus producing a very thin low bodied brew wort (IMHO).

 

P.S. Don't get caught up with all those weirdo's that somehow add imaginary IBU's into beers from post boil & dry steep hop additions. I personally think they're off with the fairies myself!

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

[Hairy]

No probs with the 7 litre volume' date=' I just needed you to clarify that. When looking for answers concerning your Original Gravity issues, it seemed best to ask.

 

I already had my suspicions about your 2nd steep & what you were possibly doing. Your reply has confirmed this. The bulk of the body (measured as specific gravity) obtained from your grain steeps/mashes, will always come from the "first runnings".

 

What you are effectively doing with this "2nd steep", is rinsing or sparging or obtaining "second runnings" from whatever remains in the grains after the 1st steep. The body obtained from these second runnings will be considerably lower than what is obtained from the first runnings. Due to you only doing a small batch of beer, this is limiting how much body you can extract from these already used grains, & is thus producing a very thin low bodied brew wort (IMHO).

 

P.S. Don't get caught up with all those weirdo's that somehow add imaginary IBU's into beers from post boil & dry steep hop additions. I personally think they're off with the fairies myself! [img']whistling[/img]

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

Not sure if the second runnings give you the end result you suggest.

 

If brewing to the same volume, adding the second runnings will give you a higher OG than just using the first runnings. That is because you are adding more 'sugars' to the batch in the same 7 litre volume.

 

But we are probably not talking about big numbers when steeping specialty grains.

[Beerlust]

Hi Hairy.

If brewing to the same volume' date=' adding the second runnings will give you a higher OG than just using the first runnings. That is because you are adding more 'sugars' to the batch in the same 7 litre volume.[/quote']

In isolation, I agree with that statement 100%.

 

I however have assumed NO first runnings have been used in this brew of Rooster's, mainly because he hasn't mentioned it. To me, this might explain the difference between his brewing calculator predicted Original Gravity, & the Actual Original Gravity that Rooster seems to be experiencing.

 

The only other thing I could come up with that might explain this is what I've mentioned in his other thread about grain to liquid ratios. I'm certainly open to any other ideas of what might be causing this very large discrepancy.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

[Hairy]

Only using the 2nd runnings

 

What's the reasoning for that?

[LeCoq/Rooster]

Apparently, first and second runnings used separately are common in UK/Europe. The first used in higher OG brews and the second in lower OG brews. But as previously stated, these are very large quantities being used. I did, however put two separate 2nd runnings together for the brew i did today, and only up to 7litres. While the first runnings for two separate brews were for higher OG brews.

 

Anyway, I knew of it being done from a tour in a UK brewery and then i heard of it again recently on a couple of podcasts. One of them mentioned that extract brewers can also do it with specialty grains but their focus was more on colour than sugars (although some residual sugars will come through. That was what i heard wrong. But the guy did mention a percentage that is still left. He also said to steep first runnings for a shorter time if you're going to do a 2nd run.

 

So i need to create the recipe without considering the 2nd runnings and add them for colour only, which is a good idea when Light DME is my base for everything.

[Hairy]

Using the 1st and 2nd runnings in separate beers is known as Parti-gyle brewing but I haven't really seen or read much of its use with just specialty grain.

 

It is always interesting to try different techniques but I would rather just use different types eg. Medium crystal for the first batch and light crystal for the second.

 

Good luck with it Rooster.

[Beerlust]

Personally, unless my first runnings were used to produce a high ABV beer, I wouldn't even bother looking at using the second runnings for a separate beer.

 

At least beginning with a high ABV beer, the amount of grain you are using to start with is of a substantial level. Thus after collecting a first runnings & you then sparge, rinse, collect a second runnings from a grain bill like this, the Specific Gravity attained from those second runnings should be of a higher (& from my point of view), more usable level for creating a separate brew wort to ferment.

 

Using second runnings from standard level brews (say an OG of 1.035 - 1.060), to begin a new brew wort, just seems a bit of a waste of time to me. More hassle than it's worth.

 

Make one great beer, rather than two poor ones I say.

 

On a more positive note about usages for second runnings, I saw Chad (Canadian Eh!L) recently mention he had been using some of the second runnings for his yeast starters with quite a positive outcome (I think? )

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

[PhilbyT]

...Boobs are great too.

 

Brewers see these as not so much a hop as an adjunct' date=' best when young as they don't stand up well with time.

 

Typical characteristics include a firm body with good mouthfeel, but can result in pronounced bitterness if compared with the style you already have at home. [img']biggrin[/img]

 

Good work Ramjet

[Lotm]

Hi folks, long time no type.

 

Made my first big beer. All grain Imperial Red AIPA. 8.5%, over 200 IBUs. Can't wait to try it. :-D

[PhilbyT]

Hi folks' date=' long time no type.

 

Made my first big beer. All grain Imperial Red AIPA. 8.5%, over 200 IBUs. Can't wait to try it. :-D [/quote']

 

Hey Scott, by which recipe did you make the said 200 IBU monster?

[Beerlust]

Hi Scott.

...over 200 IBUs.

I'd be interested in seeing your hop bill for this.

 

Anything listed as over approx. 100 IBU I find to be one of those "off with the fairies" IBU calculated beers where the recipe designer believes their post boil & dry addition hops actually add to some fictitious level of bitterness.

 

Whatever schedule you post, I'll only look at the hops added to the boil to gauge the TRUE IBU level I believe the beer is aimed at being bittered to.

 

Beyond the boil additions, it is all about marketing & selling a beer above a rival beer, & nothing more as far as I see it.

 

If you actually bittered a beer to 200 IBU via the hop boil additions, unless it had some ridiculous amount of malt backbone ending in a ridiculously high ABV beer, you would not be able to drink it.

 

If Scott's 8.5%ABV was truly bittered to 200 IBU via the hop additions in the boil (true IBU), you would not be able to drink it, period.

 

IMHO, 200 IBU beers = a contradiction in beer chemistry.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

[JohnE9]

Hi Scott.

...over 200 IBUs.

I'd be interested in seeing your hop bill for this.

 

Anything listed as over approx. 100 IBU I find to be one of those "off with the fairies" IBU calculated beers where the recipe designer believes their post boil & dry addition hops actually add to some fictitious level of bitterness.

 

Whatever schedule you post' date=' I'll only look at the hops added to the boil to gauge the TRUE IBU level I believe the beer is aimed at being bittered to.

 

Beyond the boil additions, it is all about marketing & selling a beer above a rival beer, & nothing more as far as I see it.

 

If you actually bittered a beer to 200 IBU via the hop boil additions, unless it had some ridiculous amount of malt backbone ending in a ridiculously high ABV beer, you would not be able to drink it.

 

If Scott's 8.5%ABV was truly bittered to 200 IBU via the hop additions in the boil (true IBU), you would not be able to drink it, period.

 

IMHO, 200 IBU beers = a contradiction in beer chemistry.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.[/quote']

 

TOTALLY AGREE.

[Canadian Eh!L]

Personally' date=' unless my first runnings were used to produce a high ABV beer, I wouldn't even bother looking at using the second runnings for a separate beer.

 

At least beginning with a high ABV beer, the amount of grain you are using to start with is of a substantial level. Thus after collecting a first runnings & you then sparge, rinse, collect a second runnings from a grain bill like this, the Specific Gravity attained from those second runnings should be of a higher (& from my point of view), more usable level for creating a separate brew wort to ferment.

 

Using second runnings from standard level brews (say an OG of 1.035 - 1.060), to begin a new brew wort, just seems a bit of a waste of time to me. More hassle than it's worth.

 

Make one great beer, rather than two poor ones I say. [img']wink[/img]

 

On a more positive note about usages for second runnings, I saw Chad (Canadian Eh!L) recently mention he had been using some of the second runnings for his yeast starters with quite a positive outcome (I think? )

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

Hey gang

 

I have made a second "small beer" with the second runnings. The original brew was a brown ale with an OG of 1.049. After the first brew was run off and sparged I added another 10L of water to the MLT stirred it up and ran this off into a second kettle and put it on the boil. To this wort I added 500g of DME to boast the OG up to 1.037.

This experiment made for a perfectly exceptable mild ale.

I don't think it was a waste of time at all. I didn't make two poor beers, but two good beers with very little extra effort.

 

Nowadays, I do drain the last of my MLT's dead space volume into a small kettle and use it for starters.

[Beerlust]

Hi guys.

I have made a second "small beer" with the second runnings. The original brew was a brown ale with an OG of 1.049. After the first brew was run off and sparged I added another 10L of water to the MLT stirred it up and ran this off into a second kettle and put it on the boil. To this wort I added 500g of DME to boast the OG up to 1.037.

This experiment made for a perfectly exceptable mild ale.

I don't think it was a waste of time at all. I didn't make two poor beers' date=' but two good beers with very little extra effort. [/quote']

OK, here goes...

 

Generally second runnings run at a higher efficiency of liquid yielded from it, due to the grains being used, already holding liquid from having been steeped/mashed & first runnings being taken from them once already. From that 10 litres you added to the MLT after the first brew was run off, I'm guessing you gained something around 8-8½ litres of wort (maybe even more? ). At 8 litres acquired from 10 litres mixed in, that's 80% efficiency. Perfectly reasonable to expect here.

 

Working back from the 500gms of LDM you added to this acquired wort to achieve your 1.037 OG, by my calculations, the estimated 8 litres of wort you acquired from the second runnings would have had a SG of approx. 1.013 before adding in the 500gms of LDM.

 

At 1.013, I would question (for most cases) what obvious flavour could be left in a liquid of that gravity that would have a noticeable affect on the final beer produced from it?

 

As a comparison, to achieve a 1.013 wort using grain in 8 litres, you would simply need to steep/mash approx. 330-350gms of grain. Very small differences will occur depending on the grain's potential.

 

If you are being fair to the process, & honest with yourself, the "small beer" stated earlier has derived the bulk of it's malt flavour from the 500gms of LDM, not the second runnings.

 

I stand by what I stated previously, in that you'd have to have a pretty high gravity beer that uses a lot of grain to begin with, to be able to gain anything noticeable from the second runnings from it for use in a separate beer.

 

No offence meant to anyone (especially Chad!). His "small brew" simply made for a good example to explain what is actually occurring (IMHO).

 

Cheers & good brewing,

 

Anthony.

[Canadian Eh!L]

Hi guys.

I have made a second "small beer" with the second runnings. The original brew was a brown ale with an OG of 1.049. After the first brew was run off and sparged I added another 10L of water to the MLT stirred it up and ran this off into a second kettle and put it on the boil. To this wort I added 500g of DME to boast the OG up to 1.037.

This experiment made for a perfectly exceptable mild ale.

I don't think it was a waste of time at all. I didn't make two poor beers' date=' but two good beers with very little extra effort. [/quote']

OK, here goes...

 

Generally second runnings run at a higher efficiency of liquid yielded from it, due to the grains being used, already holding liquid from having been steeped/mashed & first runnings being taken from them once already. From that 10 litres you added to the MLT after the first brew was run off, I'm guessing you gained something around 8-8½ litres of wort (maybe even more? ). At 8 litres acquired from 10 litres mixed in, that's 80% efficiency. Perfectly reasonable to expect here.

 

Working back from the 500gms of LDM you added to this acquired wort to achieve your 1.037 OG, by my calculations, the estimated 8 litres of wort you acquired from the second runnings would have had a SG of approx. 1.013 before adding in the 500gms of LDM.

 

At 1.013, I would question (for most cases) what obvious flavour could be left in a liquid of that gravity that would have a noticeable affect on the final beer produced from it?

 

As a comparison, to achieve a 1.013 wort using grain in 8 litres, you would simply need to steep/mash approx. 330-350gms of grain. Very small differences will occur depending on the grain's potential.

 

If you are being fair to the process, & honest with yourself, the "small beer" stated earlier has derived the bulk of it's malt flavour from the 500gms of LDM, not the second runnings.

 

I stand by what I stated previously, in that you'd have to have a pretty high gravity beer that uses a lot of grain to begin with, to be able to gain anything noticeable from the second runnings from it for use in a separate beer.

 

No offence meant to anyone (especially Chad!). His "small brew" simply made for a good example to explain what is actually occurring (IMHO).

 

 

I was able to collect approx. 12L as I drained the MLT deadspace right dry.

 

It seems to me that I made Partial Mash Mild ale (by your reckoning). If I was able to run off 10-12L of 1.013 (too bad i didn't record the pre-boil OG) of fresh AG wort to add to my extract brew i'd be happy with the simple effort it took to add the 10L, 500g DME and boil it down a bit to get another brew out of it.

 

BTW, Aren't you a Partial mash brewer?

[Hairy]

Chad, if I am ever in Golden I would drink one of your 2nd runnings beers, despite it not meeting Lusty's quality criteria.

 

Keep brewing what tastes nice

[Canadian Eh!L]

Chad' date=' if I am ever in Golden I would drink one of your 2nd runnings beers, despite it not meeting Lusty's quality criteria.

 

Keep brewing what tastes nice [img']rightful[/img]

 

Hairy,

 

If you were ever in Golden we'd sample everything I had on hand!

[Otto Von Blotto]

My better half and I did a brew day on Sunday, which was another batch of my Ace of Spades Porter.

 

I altered the recipe slightly from the first incarnation, reducing the base malt by 1kg, and changing the hops to use up some Willamette that I don't really want anymore. Recipe is as follows:

 

5.00 kg Pale Malt

0.35 kg Black (Patent) Malt

0.20 kg Medium Crystal

0.10 kg Chocolate Malt

0.10 kg Roasted Barley

125.00 g Willamette [4.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min

 

Probably ferment it with Windsor yeast.

 

26 litres.

 

Est. IBU 50.8

Color 61 EBC

Est. ABV 5%

 

Pre-boil SG 1043, post boil SG 1047, 72.9% efficiency. I've noticed the SG seems to change when I tip it into the FV from the original post boil reading so will update it when I put it on to ferment.

 

Should be interesting to see how it compares to the first batch!

 

Cheers

Kelsey

 

[Del]

Visited Country Brewer last week.. picked up 2 recipe packs. White Rabbit stout and a Fat Yak clone.

 

 

should be interesting.. ive never actually tried to do a clone before. but im going to add some fresh grains to both of them.. just because i kinda like the idea of cracking.. steeping.. then boiling up some hops instead of just pouring some cans in!

 

brew day x 2 tomorrow for me! im home for 3 weeks. so im looking forward to the bloop bloops of lurve!

[Beerlust]

Hi Skookum.

BTW' date=' Aren't you a Partial mash brewer?[/quote']

Absolutely. I'm also an upholsterer by trade, make a mean pork roast, & can tie my own shoelaces. Pretty impressive Eh?!!

 

All jokes aside, I regularly mash 1½ - 2kgs of grain as part of most of my own non-kit based brews. For some of those brews I have had to convert an All Grain recipe to a partial/extract recipe for myself to be able to brew it. Measuring the Specific Gravity of my pre-boil & even post boil grain worts helps me to see what amounts of LDM/LME are required to add in sometimes to adhere as close as possible to the starting gravities the recipes I am following state.

 

I too am interested in the efficiency of my mashes, particularly when I introduce a new grain into the mix, even though mine are on a smaller scale than full All Grain brewing.

 

Chad' date=' if I am ever in Golden I would drink one of your 2nd runnings beers, despite it not meeting Lusty's quality criteria.[/quote']

You don't have to travel to Golden to be able to drink one of Chad's beers Hairy. Chad has posted plenty of recipes of his own design on this very forum. You could simply brew one of them, & drink it right there in Penrith!

 

I have never been to Golden, BC, or met Chad, but I've drank more than a couple of his brews right here in Lil' Ol' Adelaide!

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony.

[Canadian Eh!L]

BTW' date=' Aren't you a Partial mash brewer?[/quote']

Absolutely. I'm also an upholsterer by trade, make a mean pork roast, & can tie my own shoelaces. Pretty impressive Eh?!!

Why are you being a smart ass, Lusty?

I am just trying figure out why you think this Partigyle idea is a waste of time. To me it would seem to be a time saver. Any day I can get a 21L AG brew + a 10L PM brew out of the same mash on the same brew day is a win, win to me.