Simple or complex. What's your preference?

[Aussiekraut]

Firstly, just like everybody else here, I like beer. Beer in (almost) any shape or form, strong or light, full- or light-bodied, dark or pale, ale or lager, simple or complex, it doesn't matter. However, we all have our preferences. 

I've made some complex beers like my Mid Pale Ale, which uses 3 different hops and something like 7 different malts, all coming to the party and fermented with Verdant yeast, it has something for everybody. It's a really good beer IMHO. I also like things like the last batch of Doppelbock I made, which while simple in terms of hops, has a decent grain bill. These beers never get boring because you always discover something new about them, especially as they age and mature. But I noticed something the other day when I had a glass of my Aussie Lager. It is a simple beer, using Coopers Premium Pale Malt and PoR hops. But I thoroughly enjoy drinking it. It is a simple, light-bodied, no-frills beer but somehow has everything a beer needs to be good. It is clean, the hops provide as much bitterness as is needed, nothing more and the malt does the heavy lifting. 

My point is, I like complex beers and big beers. I enjoy beers with different taste sensations but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, a simple, humble lager is still what I appreciate the most. Brewing big beers is a challenge and I like my challenges. Brewing something simple isn't particularly exciting, but when it comes to the end product, as with most things, less is often more. If I had to pick one beer I am allowed to brew and drink for the rest of my life, something simple like this would be a candidate. Comparing it to food, Complex beers are like French cuisine. Lots of flavours, lots of everything. Simple beers are like Italian. Quick and easy, just a few ingredients and despite all of this, yummy as. 

What's your preference and why? 

Edited February 27 by Aussiekraut

[Back Brewing]

1 hour ago, Aussiekraut said:

Firstly, just like everybody else here, I like beer. Beer in (almost) any shape or form, strong or light, full- or light-bodied, dark or pale, ale or lager, simple or complex, it doesn't matter. However, we all have our preferences. 

I've made some complex beers like my Mid Pale Ale, which uses 3 different hops and something like 7 different malts, all coming to the party and fermented with Verdant yeast, it has something for everybody. It's a really good beer IMHO. I also like things like the last batch of Doppelbock I made, which while simple in terms of hops, has a decent grain bill. These beers never get boring because you always discover something new about them, especially as they age and mature. But I noticed something the other day when I had a glass of my Aussie Lager. It is a simple beer, using Coopers Premium Pale Malt and PoR hops. But I thoroughly enjoy drinking it. It is a simple, light-bodied, no-frills beer but somehow has everything a beer needs to be good. It is clean, the hops provide as much bitterness as is needed, nothing more and the malt does the heavy lifting. 

My point is, I like complex beers and big beers. I enjoy beers with different taste sensations but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, a simple, humble lager is still what I appreciate the most. Brewing big beers is a challenge and I like my challenges. Brewing something simple isn't particularly exciting, but when it comes to the end product, as with most things, less is often more. If I had to pick one beer I am allowed to brew and drink for the rest of my life, something simple like this would be a candidate. Comparing it to food, Complex beers are like French cuisine. Lots of flavours, lots of everything. Simple beers are like Italian. Quick and easy, just a few ingredients and despite all of this, yummy as. 

What's your preference and why? 

I've only just started brewing with AG and still feeling my way around it the batches I have brewed have been pretty much SMASH brews the first one I did was to me a bit bitter because I no chill just now I have that same brew in a cube that has no bittering additions but all hops into the cube. I have just brewed a basic lager and a basic Pilsner. The best AG I've done is a stone and wood clone that had no bittering hops and 50g of hops into the cube.

I do want to brew a complex West Coast IPA but it is a lot of hops to go into the cube so what I'm going to do is do the bittering addition then before I put it into the fermenter I'm going to draw off 3 litres of wort from the cube and bring it to the boil.  Then I will put in the additions at their times in the boil cool it pour into the fermenter them empty the cube on top.

So I'm doing pretty simple brews at the moment but would like to have rotation of mainly simple brews and and occasional complex brews.

 

 

 

Edited February 27 by Back Brewing

[Aussiekraut]

6 hours ago, Back Brewing said:

I've only just started brewing with AG and still feeling my way around it the batches I have brewed have been pretty much SMASH brews the first one I did was to me a bit bitter because I no chill just now I have that same brew in a cube that has no bittering additions but all hops into the cube. I have just brewed a basic lager and a basic Pilsner. The best AG I've done is a stone and wood clone that had no bittering hops and 50g of hops into the cube.

I do want to brew a complex West Coast IPA but it is a lot of hops to go into the cube so what I'm going to do is do the bittering addition then before I put it into the fermenter I'm going to draw off 3 litres of wort from the cube and bring it to the boil.  Then I will put in the additions at their times in the boil cool it pour into the fermenter them empty the cube on top.

So I'm doing pretty simple brews at the moment but would like to have rotation of mainly simple brews and and occasional complex brews.

 

 

 

Why are you only cube hopping? I associate cube hopping with flavour additions and not much more. Why do you not add bittering hops and use late additions and dry hopping for flavour? I can't imagine you getting much bitterness into the beer that way. Just curious.

[Back Brewing]

28 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

Why are you only cube hopping? I associate cube hopping with flavour additions and not much more. Why do you not add bittering hops and use late additions and dry hopping for flavour? I can't imagine you getting much bitterness into the beer that way. Just curious.

I absolutely dry hop the reason for no bittering hops is because I was using galaxy which can be a bit harsh as I said I'm still finding my way around AG as time goes on and I start experimenting with hops I will start adding bittering hops. You will be surprised on bitterness depending on the hops how much bitterness you can achieve by cube hopping and at what temp you transfer to the cube.

I will use a bittering hop for my West Coast IPA  but then all late additions will be done as my last post it's known as the Argon method and I find it interesting and well known.

 

Edited February 27 by Back Brewing

[kmar92]

29 minutes ago, Back Brewing said:

I absolutely dry hop the reason for no bittering hops is because I was using galaxy which can be a bit harsh as I said I'm still finding my way around AG as time goes on and I start experimenting with hops I will start adding bittering hops. You will be surprised on bitterness depending on the hops how much bitterness you can achieve by cube hopping and at what temp you transfer to the cube.

I will use a bittering hop for my West Coast IPA  but then all late additions will be done as my last post it's known as the Argon method and I find it interesting and well known.

 

I doubt that you will get much bittering from cube hopping, unless the wort is over 95°+  for a considerable amount of time. The aim during bittering is to isomerize some of the alpha acids in the hops and that usually is done during the boil.  Maybe when you did the brew that was too bitter you added too much galaxy during the boil? Most bittering is done during the boil and it pays to use some sort of software to give you an idea of the level of IBU that you will get with different hops and the time that they should be boiled.

Cube hopping, whirlpool additions, hop stands, dry hops etc are mainly used to get flavour and aroma's from hops and are not normally used for bittering. Normally if you do not use bittering hops with an AG batch during the boil you will find that the malt sweetness will be too much and overpower the taste of the beer, I personally do not like any sweetness in my beers.

I am sure that you will soon work it all out @Back Brewing with the AG brews, it is all about trying and experimenting and perfecting a good process.

[Back Brewing]

20 minutes ago, kmar92 said:

I doubt that you will get much bittering from cube hopping, unless the wort is over 95°+  for a considerable amount of time. The aim during bittering is to isomerize some of the alpha acids in the hops and that usually is done during the boil.  Maybe when you did the brew that was too bitter you added too much galaxy during the boil? Most bittering is done during the boil and it pays to use some sort of software to give you an idea of the level of IBU that you will get with different hops and the time that they should be boiled.

Cube hopping, whirlpool additions, hop stands, dry hops etc are mainly used to get flavour and aroma's from hops and are not normally used for bittering. Normally if you do not use bittering hops with an AG batch during the boil you will find that the malt sweetness will be too much and overpower the taste of the beer, I personally do not like any sweetness in my beers.

I am sure that you will soon work it all out @Back Brewing with the AG brews, it is all about trying and experimenting and perfecting a good process.

That is exactly what I did for comparison I turned off the heat and transferred into the cube after a 20 minute rest is it the right way? Buggered if I know but it's different from how I brewed it the first time but the sample I tried it is a nice brew but no where as bitter as the first time I brewed it.

As you said it's about experimenting I'm sure I will find a process that suits me. As an example the last 2 brews I have done I did a bittering hop and all late additions went into the cube.

Edited February 27 by Back Brewing

[Shamus O'Sean]

9 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

Firstly, just like everybody else here, I like beer. Beer in (almost) any shape or form, strong or light, full- or light-bodied, dark or pale, ale or lager, simple or complex, it doesn't matter. However, we all have our preferences. 

I've made some complex beers like my Mid Pale Ale, which uses 3 different hops and something like 7 different malts, all coming to the party and fermented with Verdant yeast, it has something for everybody. It's a really good beer IMHO. I also like things like the last batch of Doppelbock I made, which while simple in terms of hops, has a decent grain bill. These beers never get boring because you always discover something new about them, especially as they age and mature. But I noticed something the other day when I had a glass of my Aussie Lager. It is a simple beer, using Coopers Premium Pale Malt and PoR hops. But I thoroughly enjoy drinking it. It is a simple, light-bodied, no-frills beer but somehow has everything a beer needs to be good. It is clean, the hops provide as much bitterness as is needed, nothing more and the malt does the heavy lifting. 

My point is, I like complex beers and big beers. I enjoy beers with different taste sensations but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, a simple, humble lager is still what I appreciate the most. Brewing big beers is a challenge and I like my challenges. Brewing something simple isn't particularly exciting, but when it comes to the end product, as with most things, less is often more. If I had to pick one beer I am allowed to brew and drink for the rest of my life, something simple like this would be a candidate. Comparing it to food, Complex beers are like French cuisine. Lots of flavours, lots of everything. Simple beers are like Italian. Quick and easy, just a few ingredients and despite all of this, yummy as. 

What's your preference and why? 

I like brewing and drinking both complex and simple brews too.  Complex brews like Triple IPAs, Parti Gyle brews, Fruit Sours, etc test your brewing capabilities.  I also like simple brews because, with a couple of ingredients, you can produce a lovely refreshing beer and brew day is usually quicker and less stressful.

Speaking of stressful, I am planning to rebrew my one massive failure from a few years ago: The Kraken Black IPA.  That was one of the first All Grain brews I did.  I have learned a heap since then.  I think this time it will go much more smoothly.  Wish me luck.

Edited February 27 by Shamus O'Sean

[RDT2]

Just now, Shamus O'Sean said:

I like brewing and drinking both complex and simple brews too.  Complex brews like Triple IPAs, Parti Gyle brews, Fruit Sours, etc test your brewing capabilities.  I also like simple brews because, with a couple of ingredients, you can produce a lovely refreshing beer and brew day is usually quicker and less stressful.

+1 to this described me to a T! I had a belgium dubbel, aussie lager red IpA and a sour on tap recently! The dubbel was the dessert beer

[Pale Man]

On 2/27/2024 at 12:06 PM, Aussiekraut said:

Firstly, just like everybody else here, I like beer. Beer in (almost) any shape or form, strong or light, full- or light-bodied, dark or pale, ale or lager, simple or complex, it doesn't matter. However, we all have our preferences. 

I've made some complex beers like my Mid Pale Ale, which uses 3 different hops and something like 7 different malts, all coming to the party and fermented with Verdant yeast, it has something for everybody. It's a really good beer IMHO. I also like things like the last batch of Doppelbock I made, which while simple in terms of hops, has a decent grain bill. These beers never get boring because you always discover something new about them, especially as they age and mature. But I noticed something the other day when I had a glass of my Aussie Lager. It is a simple beer, using Coopers Premium Pale Malt and PoR hops. But I thoroughly enjoy drinking it. It is a simple, light-bodied, no-frills beer but somehow has everything a beer needs to be good. It is clean, the hops provide as much bitterness as is needed, nothing more and the malt does the heavy lifting. 

My point is, I like complex beers and big beers. I enjoy beers with different taste sensations but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, a simple, humble lager is still what I appreciate the most. Brewing big beers is a challenge and I like my challenges. Brewing something simple isn't particularly exciting, but when it comes to the end product, as with most things, less is often more. If I had to pick one beer I am allowed to brew and drink for the rest of my life, something simple like this would be a candidate. Comparing it to food, Complex beers are like French cuisine. Lots of flavours, lots of everything. Simple beers are like Italian. Quick and easy, just a few ingredients and despite all of this, yummy as. 

What's your preference and why? 

Simple for me now AK. Ive tried all this fancy Hazey Pales, NEIPAS, APA's......rah rah rah. They were ok, but not my thing.

I love all grain brewing and I think I'll go back to my European / English routes.

I love a really good wheat beer, brewed traditionally. It always delivers. A nice simple ale, hopped with fuggles and goldings.

A good robust, simple all grain stout. Tasting those roast malts that arent too sweet but just smack on in winter.

Having said that, also just a nice clean aussie lager. Bittered at 28 IBU, at the start of boil. Nice cold and clear.

Excellent post AK........I think I'm going back to simple, from now on with my brewing.

Edited February 28 by Pale Man

[Pale Man]

Just in adding too, Belgian blonde strong ales such as Duvel are my really favourite beers. I'd like a glass of Duvel on my death bed.

So easy to brew as an all grain brewer and nail it. Its the the Champagne of beers.

Simple and satisfying.

Edited February 28 by Pale Man

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

18 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

Just in adding too, Belgian blonde strong ales such as Duvel are my really favourite beers. I'd like a glass of Duvel on my death bed.

So easy to brew as an all grain brewer and nail it. Its the the Champagne of beers.

Simple and satisfying.

+1 to this. The classics are often simple. 

[Aussiekraut]

13 hours ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

+1 to this. The classics are often simple. 

Take the Pilsner for example. No fuss, no BS. Single malt, preferably single hop and yeast. It is the purest beer out there and the hardest to brew if you want to get it right. Because of its simplicity, every small mistake shows in the end result. In terms of brewing, it is probably the most unforgiving beer. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

Take the Pilsner for example. No fuss, no BS. Single malt, preferably single hop and yeast. It is the purest beer out there and the hardest to brew if you want to get it right. Because of its simplicity, every small mistake shows in the end result. In terms of brewing, it is probably the most unforgiving beer. 

I accept that a mistake will show up more in a Pilsner.  However, I disagree that it is hardest to brew*.  I think anything with a dry hop, or similar cold side addition, is harder to brew.  There is greater chance of getting something unwanted in a brew during cold side additions.  Maybe oxygen, maybe bacteria from opening fermenters, maybe something from not sanitising as best as possible.  I have had more dry hopped beers come out "not great" than I have had Pilsners come out "not great".  In fact, I do not recall any of my Pilsners coming out with issues.  But I have had a few dodgy dry hopped brews.

* This does assume you have proper lager yeast and are brewing at proper lager temperatures and following appropriate lager temperature regimes.

[Aussiekraut]

9 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I accept that a mistake will show up more in a Pilsner.  However, I disagree that it is hardest to brew*.  I think anything with a dry hop, or similar cold side addition, is harder to brew.  There is greater chance of getting something unwanted in a brew during cold side additions.  Maybe oxygen, maybe bacteria from opening fermenters, maybe something from not sanitising as best as possible.  I have had more dry hopped beers come out "not great" than I have had Pilsners come out "not great".  In fact, I do not recall any of my Pilsners coming out with issues.  But I have had a few dodgy dry hopped brews.

* This does assume you have proper lager yeast and are brewing at proper lager temperatures and following appropriate lager temperature regimes.

What I meant was not that the beer goes bad but that you can't hide mistakes. You make a mistake in an ale, it may show but there are usually many other things going on that distract from it. With a pilsner, you don't have that luxury. You make a mistake and it stares into your face. There is nowhere to hide it behind. No yeast or hop flavours that distract from the problem. No additional malts, nothing. I compare it to vodka. Vodka is plain and simple and any mistakes made during production will show. You go for a fruit spirit like Williams, it's a clear spirit like vodka but has other flavours in it. If it has a sharp sting, the other flavours can distract from it, if the vodka has a sting, it is instantly noticed.

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

What I meant was not that the beer goes bad but that you can't hide mistakes. You make a mistake in an ale, it may show but there are usually many other things going on that distract from it. With a pilsner, you don't have that luxury. You make a mistake and it stares into your face. There is nowhere to hide it behind. No yeast or hop flavours that distract from the problem. No additional malts, nothing. I compare it to vodka. Vodka is plain and simple and any mistakes made during production will show. You go for a fruit spirit like Williams, it's a clear spirit like vodka but has other flavours in it. If it has a sharp sting, the other flavours can distract from it, if the vodka has a sting, it is instantly noticed.

True, it is hard to hide mistakes in a lager/pilsner.  They are supposed to have a clean flavour.  Nice bitterness.  So if you use old malt, they might taste stale.  Ferment too hot and you will get undesirable estery flavour/aroma.  Inappropriate hops can dominate.

[Triple B Brewing]

Thanks for your post @Aussiekraut, I’ve really enjoyed reading yours and other members responses - very enlightening

[Classic Brewing Co]

I like simple beers that are well carbonated with a balance of malty sweetness and bitterness, I also like the floral aromas & tastes that linger with the aftertaste.

I don't necessarily have a plan as such to brew certain brews at certain times, I much prefer to stick to the Pale Ales. IPA's, Draughts etc, as I have previously said, I can take or leave most lagers.

Sometimes I just do a couple of AG brews or a FWK or even a quick k & K, as long as I have something on tap, I am happy.

Of course I like Dark Ales, Porters, Stouts, I like wheat beers a lot but steer away from fruit beers, sours & other sickly concoctions.

Overall, I prefer the process of AG brewing as it is more of a challenge which gives you more satisfaction of knowing you built it from scratch rather than just mixing up a can with water.

These days being retired I am happy to move at my own pace & brew what I want when I want, life is too short to plan every move, so I figure as long as you enjoy what you are doing, that is the most important thing.

[NBillett09]

On 2/27/2024 at 10:09 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

The Kraken Black IPA. 

I don’t know what that is but it sounds awesome

[Beerdo]

On 2/27/2024 at 12:06 PM, Aussiekraut said:

Firstly, just like everybody else here, I like beer. Beer in (almost) any shape or form, strong or light, full- or light-bodied, dark or pale, ale or lager, simple or complex, it doesn't matter. However, we all have our preferences. 

I've made some complex beers like my Mid Pale Ale, which uses 3 different hops and something like 7 different malts, all coming to the party and fermented with Verdant yeast, it has something for everybody. It's a really good beer IMHO. I also like things like the last batch of Doppelbock I made, which while simple in terms of hops, has a decent grain bill. These beers never get boring because you always discover something new about them, especially as they age and mature. But I noticed something the other day when I had a glass of my Aussie Lager. It is a simple beer, using Coopers Premium Pale Malt and PoR hops. But I thoroughly enjoy drinking it. It is a simple, light-bodied, no-frills beer but somehow has everything a beer needs to be good. It is clean, the hops provide as much bitterness as is needed, nothing more and the malt does the heavy lifting. 

My point is, I like complex beers and big beers. I enjoy beers with different taste sensations but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, a simple, humble lager is still what I appreciate the most. Brewing big beers is a challenge and I like my challenges. Brewing something simple isn't particularly exciting, but when it comes to the end product, as with most things, less is often more. If I had to pick one beer I am allowed to brew and drink for the rest of my life, something simple like this would be a candidate. Comparing it to food, Complex beers are like French cuisine. Lots of flavours, lots of everything. Simple beers are like Italian. Quick and easy, just a few ingredients and despite all of this, yummy as. 

What's your preference and why? 

As an extract brewer my beers are always quite simple for obvious reasons. I spent numerous months getting more adventurous with more hops and fermentable additions. While all of these beers were drinkable some of the results were less desirable than others and it got me thinking, Coopers have been making beer for over a century and I've been mixing extracts for about 6 years. Why am I trying to pimp their beers? It makes no sense really. So for the past year the vast majority of my beers have been Coopers Pale Ale with nothing more than some LDM and dextrose added. This might seem like the missionary position for home brewing but it's been just as enjoyable as reverse cowgirl when it comes to pouring and drinking.
As John Laws used to say, "When you're on a good thing, stick to it!"
I'm partial to more complex beers also but if I desire those I'm probably better off buying those from the bottlo than trying to emulate them myself. This is not to say others should do the same. This is purely based on my limited skill set.

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, NBillett09 said:

I don’t know what that is but it sounds awesome

The Kraken Black IPA - 7.5% ABV and black like a Stout, but fruity like an IPA.  At one point you could buy all grain kits off the Grainfather website.  I am pretty sure that Mangrove Jacks put the kits together.  It was one of the first all grain brews I did and it was an abysmal failure.  I am going back for another crack.  Much more experienced as a brewer, understanding my system much better too.  I am quietly confident I can pull it off this time.

[Kegory]

I'm still very much a baby brewer, and an extract brewer at that, but I've enjoyed gradually building up to more complex brews. However, I've been a bit pressed for time lately so I've opted to make some simpler brews until I have more time on my hands. I'm a big fan of some of the complex malt (and, I guess, yeast) characters found in some ales. Since I've started learning more about beer and brewing myself I've also found a new appreciation of simple beers, and even some sours which, hitherto, I wouldn't give the time of day to.

[Triple B Brewing]

2 hours ago, Beerdo said:

As an extract brewer my beers are always quite simple for obvious reasons. I spent numerous months getting more adventurous with more hops and fermentable additions. While all of these beers were drinkable some of the results were less desirable than others and it got me thinking, Coopers have been making beer for over a century and I've been mixing extracts for about 6 years. Why am I trying to pimp their beers? It makes no sense really. So for the past year the vast majority of my beers have been Coopers Pale Ale with nothing more than some LDM and dextrose added. This might seem like the missionary position for home brewing but it's been just as enjoyable as reverse cowgirl when it comes to pouring and drinking.
As John Laws used to say, "When you're on a good thing, stick to it!"
I'm partial to more complex beers also but if I desire those I'm probably better off buying those from the bottlo than trying to emulate them myself. This is not to say others should do the same. This is purely based on my limited skill set.

I'll say it again @Beerdo @Malter White, you are a very funny falla (funny HA HA that is) - classic - thanks for the belly laugh mate 

Keep missionary brewin' and reverse cowgirlin' the pourin' ana slurpin' I say - HEEE !