Potassium Metabisulphite - to prevent oxidation?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, they're always purged with CO2. I'm sure there's still a bit of oxygen in there but it would be very small. 

[BlackSands]

Now that @ChristinaS1 has embraced kegging and therefore the ability to purge the headspace of oxygen it will be interesting to see if she shares similar experiences in terms of hop flavour/aroma longevity.  Currently 5 weeks in a bottle seems to be the point where we notice hop-fade becoming quite apparent and in fact my with current PA I would say it was even sooner than that.    

[James Lao]

Hi all,

Just kegged a batch last week and bottled 4 PETs (24 litre batch).

Did not shake them but did not squeeze the bottles as they were kinking  slightly when I tried the first one and thought it might weaken the plastic?

Does anyone squeeze the bottle / and does their PET slightly kink when doing this, is it something to be concerned about?

Anyway, will be able to tell when I am back home in a coupe of weeks, about the positive affects  of not shaking the bottle (hopefully)!

Cheers

James

 

[BlackSands]

1 hour ago, James Lao said:

Did not shake them but did not squeeze the bottles as they were kinking  slightly when I tried the first one and thought it might weaken the plastic?

Does anyone squeeze the bottle / and does their PET slightly kink when doing this, is it something to be concerned about?

 

I've just started doing this - last couple of batches. Doesn't appear to be an issue.  One thing though, it's become apparent that I probably need to increase the priming level a bit to compensate for the 'lost' CO2 that is now required to restore the bottles to shape and fill the head space!

[James Lao]

Hey Blacksands,

Does that mean the bottles don’t  firm up as much, when the air is  squeezed out of them  at bottling time?

Cheers

James

[Worts and all]

19 hours ago, BlackSands said:

I've just started doing this - last couple of batches. Doesn't appear to be an issue.  One thing though, it's become apparent that I probably need to increase the priming level a bit to compensate for the 'lost' CO2 that is now required to restore the bottles to shape and fill the head space!

If squeezing the plastic bottles is a good idea, does that mean I should squeeze the glass ones as well?

[BlackSands]

40 minutes ago, James Lao said:

Hey Blacksands,

Does that mean the bottles don’t  firm up as much, when the air is  squeezed out of them  at bottling time?

Cheers

James

That appears to be the case.  I have one recent batch that was bulk-primed with 150g and those bottles do feel a little softer than what I usually expect after two weeks. All rather subjective of course but I'm thinking an extra 10g or so might be in order.

 

4 minutes ago, Worts and all said:

If squeezing the plastic bottles is a good idea, does that mean I should squeeze the glass ones as well?

Sure, just make sure you have a tube of Savlon and some Band Aids handy!  

[Norris!]

Does anyone else think crushing bottles that will eventually hold carbonated liquid is a bad idea due to loss of integrity to the bottle walls and such?

So far this thread has tried to add chemicals to beer to prevent oxidation to preserve hop flavours, adding spunding valves and completely changing your brew day because of the fear of oxygen and now crushing the PET bottle to help reduce the oxygen intake. The next step will be an oxygen free bottling room with robot arms.

With my beers I know hop fade will occur when comparing the first week to week 5, but I also know that with my recipe construction that the beer is maturing and will take on another character one that is pleasing. Where the malt and hops balance out and compliment each other more versus my usual hop grenades.

If you know that it takes 6 to 8 weeks, or whatever to finish a batch, why not ensure you have enough hop aroma and flavour to carryover for the life of the brew by adding additional hops during flameout and dry hop? To be honest, complaining about hop fade when you add 2g a liter for a dry hop is counterproductive. Fix the recipe and yes you will still experience hop fade but the beer will still be nice to drink and, as said above, will take on new characteristics that will surprise you.

I am not saying your beers are bad just that the character you want might only be achievable for a short time before it is lost, due to hop fade and around a 2g/l dry hop. Hop fade happens to all brews, period. You can change your process, add additional steps, buy and add metabul whatever to your beer, crush the PET bottles, whatever, but until you address the lack of hop weight in your brews these things won't address your issues. There is a thing called Occam's Razor here is the basis of it, "other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones". 

Good luck with your journey and who knows maybe you will figure out how to preserve hop aroma for the life of the beer, but I am pretty sure crushing something that I am going to add carbonated liquid too, creates its own set of issues, if not today, in the near future, it will.

Norris

Edited October 25, 2019 by Norris!

[BlackSands]

1 hour ago, Norris! said:

Does anyone else think crushing bottles that will eventually hold carbonated liquid is a bad idea due to loss of integrity to the bottle walls and such?

So far this thread has tried to add chemicals to beer to prevent oxidation to preserve hop flavours, adding spunding valves and completely changing your brew day because of the fear of oxygen and now crushing the PET bottle to help reduce the oxygen intake. The next step will be an oxygen free bottling room with robot arms.

With my beers I know hop fade will occur when comparing the first week to week 5, but I also know that with my recipe construction that the beer is maturing and will take on another character one that is pleasing. Where the malt and hops balance out and compliment each other more versus my usual hop grenades.

If you know that it takes 6 to 8 weeks, or whatever to finish a batch, why not ensure you have enough hop aroma and flavour to carryover for the life of the brew by adding additional hops during flameout and dry hop? To be honest, complaining about hop fade when you add 2g a liter for a dry hop is counterproductive. Fix the recipe and yes you will still experience hop fade but the beer will still be nice to drink and, as said above, will take on new characteristics that will surprise you.

I am not saying your beers are bad just that the character you want might only be achievable for a short time before it is lost, due to hop fade and around a 2g/l dry hop. Hop fade happens to all brews, period. You can change your process, add additional steps, buy and add metabul whatever to your beer, crush the PET bottles, whatever, but until you address the lack of hop weight in your brews these things won't address your issues. There is a thing called Occam's Razor here is the basis of it, "other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones". 

Good luck with your journey and who knows maybe you will figure out how to preserve hop aroma for the life of the beer, but I am pretty sure crushing something that I am going to add carbonated liquid too, creates its own set of issues, if not today, in the near future, it will.

Norris

I wonder why you think a slight squeeze of the PET bottles is a bad idea? Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that 'crushing' PET bottles compromises their integrity?   The use of the word 'crushing' by the way is a rather gross misrepresentation of what's actually happening.  They're squeezed and slightly deformed.  No big deal I reckon.

"Fixing" a recipe in your terms mean 'compensating'.  I (and others) are  simply exploring possible fixes that are actually that - fixes, and this doesn't just happen to apply to a brew featured here which just happened to use a mere 2g/litre.  That's clearly just cherry-picking on your part to support your 'fix the recipe' argument.  

 

[Norris!]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

"Fixing" a recipe in your terms mean 'compensating'.  I (and others) are  simply exploring possible fixes that are actually that - fixes, and this doesn't just happen to apply to a brew featured here which just happened to use a mere 2g/litre.  That's clearly just cherry-picking on your part to support your 'fix the recipe' argument.  

 

Here are four examples of me cherry picking. The issue with one is that it was an English bitter and you didn't dry hop, so fair enough due to recipe and brewer preference. These 4, you posted from brew day what do you got thread, the last 4 brews you posted if you check the dates.

I don't have time to scrub for more evidence, but we both know you don't dry hop over 5g/l or over 100g or more a batch consistently if more than 1 every 10 or 15 batches, because you like to post your recipes for all to see. I could keep going back and providing more evidence but honestly I don't care. I only commented out of concern for safety and loss of beer. Do whatever you like in your brewery.

Look, play science all day but I am questioning your methods if you think crushing a bottle before filling it expels the oxygen to make it a now oxygen less environment, you are not purging it just smashing, crushing, squeezing whatever term you want to use, it not actually preventing more oxygen from entering all you did was compromise the integrity of the bottle, that is clear, what not is clear is if squeezing a bottle affects the amount of oxygen in a bottle unless you crush it down to complete zero volume and what effect pressurised liquids will have on the bottle afterwards. If you were purging it with something I wouldn't say this, but clearly you are not. Instead you are, according to you, giving it a slight squeeze...ok, but enough that the container doesn't return to it's original shape when filled...with carbonated/pressurised liquid. But that isn't compromising anything? You tried to follow better practice with references to back up your assersations but now scoff at the idea that deforming a bottle that will have pressurised liquid and gas in it isn't an issue? Ok.

Like I said, my only issue is around safety and how dry hopping with 30g will fade, quickly. I will say the redback ale looked good though.

Norris

[Norris!]

Sorry posted the redback ale twice, but still, there are 5 attachments from the last 4 brewday posts. Either way, it clearly shows you are going light in all the brews here, with possibly the expection of the redback ale, but I would of done more than 2.5g/l a dry hop because I am guessing you did 23l to compensate for the additional drinker? Maybe maybe not but even at 21l it is only 2.4ish grams a liter.

Just wanted to correct that, additional upload.

[Norris!]

The Pacific gold recipe looked good too, all up until you get to the dry hop. You didn't even match the dry hop against your flameout addition while using low AA hops,...that looks like an issue with the recipe, right?

The Mexican cerveza recipe, again no dry hop and 25g at 10min, when your chasing aroma you whirlpool you don't boil and not whirlpool and then not dry hop....recipe.

English bitter...I don't know because I don't drink those.

So 3/4 of the last recipes you posted have, well you tell me the grams per liter dry hop and grams per liter total and tell me I cherry picked again. Why question adding more hops but jump at the opportunity to add metabul whatever to your beer and crushing your bottles as the solution? This actually puzzles me.  Your brews all look good to me up to the dry hop and sometimes the lack of whirlpool but that again is brewer preference, but if you are not doing these things, you cannot question why your brews are experiencing hop fade, can you?

Occam's Razor.

Norris

Edited October 25, 2019 by Norris!

[BlackSands]

3 out of the 4 are not hop-forward beers and are not relevant to the discussion. Obviously.  Cherry picking.

 

[Norris!]

I could pull more, but you know the truth and so do I, you have your recipe book, which you are searching now for a brew with over 5g/l to prove me wrong while hoping it isnt on the brewday thread to far back, which proves my point about 1 out of 10 to 15 brews with 5g/l or more.

My assertion about the recipes are not based on cherry picking, you even said you based the thread on a brew with a "mere 2g/l", your own words. It is ok. I have clearly proven your issue can be mitigated with recipe construction adjustments. Again, why question hop fade on a brew featured in the hop fade metabul thread that has a "mere 2g/l" in it? Why even question hop fade in a beer with 2g/l in it? Low AA hops too? I mean it isn't rocket science, is it?

Your own words below.

2 hours ago, BlackSands said:

"Fixing" a recipe in your terms mean 'compensating'.  I (and others) are  simply exploring possible fixes that are actually that - fixes, and this doesn't just happen to apply to a brew featured here which just happened to use a mere 2g/litre.  That's clearly just cherry-picking on your part to support your 'fix the recipe' argument.  

 

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

5 hours ago, Norris! said:

The next step will be an oxygen free bottling room with robot arms

Cannot wait to see that on the "Show me your current brewing setup" thread. 

[Norris!]

It was the next eventual step in this threads logic. It makes sense, but at what cost versus the return?  I mean I could see CUB doing it, or whoever, but you have to ask yourself why haven't they. Then ask yourself why some breweries do an open ferment? Then look at the solutions in this thread and it makes your head whiz, well my head. Simple beats complex and if I am not getting the hop aroma I want I am looking at when, how and what hops were used, not metabulshite and squeezing bottles.

[PaddyBrew2]

I popped the last bottle of my first AG IPA last night it.   I brewed it in  June.  Still had good hop flavour and aroma. Not as much as the first bottle but still very hop forward. From memory did 6 gms a litre. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Has Norris been on the turps tonight?

I'm not against using metabisulphite, I use it in my water to get rid of the chloramine, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference in the experiences noted in this thread with regard to hop fade. Being a bit of a chemistry nut I did find it interesting to read about even if I have no intention of trying it myself. 

Can't comment on the bottles because I only ever used glass. Don't remember any hop forward beers becoming noticeably less aromatic though. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[PaddyBrew2]

I think Lusty has guessed Norris password and is going to town 

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

I think Lusty has guessed Norris password and is going to town 

Hillarious!

[Norris!]

Yeah I was being a jerk. I let my frustration take over my generally calm and polite demeanour. I don't like my integrity being questioned. You want to get under my skin, fast, call me a liar.

I don't blame the turp or anything else, I wrote what I wrote and would do it again. The original premise of the thread makes sense but my ISSUE was with the complex methods to battle hop fade while ignoring the key drivers, hop additions, hop times, hop weight, malt bases and yeast selection. Instead of addressing any of these Blacksands went to metabulshite, squeezing bottles and other process changes that introduced additional variables while ignoring the key drivers of hop aroma.

My other issue was when he said I cherry picked knowing that I didn't. He had to know his own recipes,  so to sit there and say I was cherry picking is either Blacksands purposefully lying and trying to piss me off or he couldn't remember what he did...Which then means he cannot question my assertations since he couldn't remember...Either way he was talking out his a$$ and I called him on it.

My point was simple, you are experiencing hop fade because you add bugger all hops to the brews, I then backed up that assertion with evidence from his last 4 brewday posts. He is willing to add whatever to his brew but ignores the measily hop weights in his brews...but I am cherry picking. Common sense folks, that was what I was championing. I also didn't want to see another thread questioning why some bottles have started to fail, see I was thinking ahead.

Norris

 

[James Lao]

Why can’t everyone just get along, this is the Coopers forum remember!

I took on the oxidising angle as my bottled brews taste way different to my kegged beers, so no more shaking bottles for me, but didn’t like the kinking  effect of squeezing the bottles so left it there.

Old Gash on his vid seems to think it makes a difference so I will find out soon if not shaking improves the taste at the glass.

But do agree that more hops late and dry hopped will prolong the hop flavour of the beer defo.

Maybe it’s me and my taste buds but anything less than 3g / L these days doesn’t do enough for me aroma wise pale ales and IPAs. 
( I do love a big hop aroma in my beers these days)!

Also why I am thinking of weighing the hop bag down to get more bang for buck.

I am beginning to see it as a waste if 50g of hops out of 100g are not contacting the beer and it just looks like they are getting wet through a wicking effect.

Would prefer if they were all immersed

Cheers

James

[BlackSands]

It's clear to me now that Norris doesn't understand the issue.  

Hop fade is a widely acknowledged issue, it's a widely experienced issue and it's a widely discussed issue.  It is reasonably obvious I think that the issue is relevant to styles where a level of hop presences is desired in a finished beer, WHATEVER that level may be.  IT DOES NOT MATTER what that level of hoppiness is intended to be, IT DOES NOT MATTER if you say dry hop your brew 50g, 150g or even 250g, a degree of hop-fade, for any given beer, with any given hop charge is a commonly experienced issue.  And that is what is being discussed.  

By the way, I still haven't seen any supporting evidence from you regarding the "crushing" of PET bottles.  But don't bother, if there's something to be found I will find it.

I can't imagine why you would think its a good idea to trample all over a perfectly good discussion and exploration into the subject.  If a topic displeases you, I suggest you move on and spew forth your toxic vitriol elsewhere.   There's only so much time I'm prepared to waste on your ridiculous, vindictive nonsense... and your time Mr "Crush" Norris is up.

  

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

With all due respect, I'm not really sure why anyone would think shaking bottles is a good idea. It's always advised that splashing beer around post fermentation is a bad idea because it will lead to oxidation, so why shake bottles and do exactly that? It's totally illogical. 

As for squeezing air out, I can't say that I see any real issues with bottle integrity from doing this. It's a small amount of air so the bottles aren't really being crushed. At the same time, from my experience with glass bottles and obviously being unable to do this, I don't see any noticeable benefits either. There was nothing wrong with those beers, and I didn't notice any appreciable hop fade. 

My kegs are purged as best I can, but aside from conditioning faster than bottles due to the bigger volume and probably also not going through a secondary fermentation, the beer doesn't really taste any different once it's in the glass. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[ben 10]

I get around hop fade in a very simple way.

 

 

 

Drink FASTER