Potassium Metabisulphite - to prevent oxidation?

[Malter White]

On 9/17/2019 at 2:04 PM, James Lao said:

Might be the 6 beers and then the 2 glasses of red that’s causing the headaches for me on a Saturday morning?

A friend told me a saying many years ago to avoid hangovers, "Never mix the grape with the grain."
Beer with spirits is ok but beer and/or spirits with wine is a no no. It's advice that's served me well since he told me.

[Otto Von Blotto]

@ChristinaS1 You can also fill kegs through the beer out post by connecting a tube to a disconnect that is connected to the FV tap or siphon thingy, which reduces or eliminates exposure to oxygen. I'm gonna try it myself, just need to grab a couple of things first. 

[ChristinaS1]

3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

@ChristinaS1 You can also fill kegs through the beer out post by connecting a tube to a disconnect that is connected to the FV tap or siphon thingy, which reduces or eliminates exposure to oxygen. I'm gonna try it myself, just need to grab a couple of things first. 

Good idea! But I am not clear on whether the keg is sealed and purged before transfer or after? I suppose it has to be after, because you need to be able to see how much to fill the keg / when you get close to the "gas in" dip tube. If that is the case, no need to use the beer out post; a piece of tubing long enough to go from the spigot or auto siphon to the bottom of the keg would do the same thing, wouldn't it?

I just bought a spigot but I am not sure whether I will install it or return it. I hear so many stories about taps causing contaminated brews that I am hesitant. I might just stick to the auto siphon.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited September 18, 2019 by ChristinaS1

[Otto Von Blotto]

Both. The keg is purged and sealed prior to filling, and I guess it could be done again after.

Of course it only works well if you have accurate volume markings on your fermenter, or the beer is cold so you can see the level rise inside the keg from the condensation it forms on the outside.

[BlackSands]

13 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I hear so many stories about taps causing contaminated brews that I am hesitant. I might just stick to the auto siphon.

I don't use an auto-siphon though I may need to get one for my wine.   I always wondered why wine makers used siphons but I've discovered wine lees is not at all like beer sediment... it seems to be quite loose and 'floaty' in comparison so bottling via the tap as I do with my beer may be problematic. 

I believe the contamination issues I experienced in the past were indeed due to unclean/unsanitary taps but once I had that realisation I've been habitually boiling them.  Problem solved.  

 

[BlackSands]

And... don't shake your bottles!

 

[James Lao]

Good video Blacksands.

I like Gash’s videos, and that is something that I never really thought of when bottling.

For me, it’s maybe  why kegged beer tastes cleaner, because of not being shaken up to get the secondary ferment going?

I always thought it was the secondary ferment but maybe it’s because I shake the bejesus out the bottles to get the yeast roused and sugar mixed in..?

Maybe there is something in this FOMO  after all..!

Cheers

James

[Otto Von Blotto]

I can't understand the idea behind shaking bottles to get the sugar mixed in or whatever. I never bothered doing that with carb drops or when dosing bottles with sugar and they all carbonated perfectly well. Pretty redundant process really. 

My kegged beers did taste better earlier than the bottled portions did, back when I bottled the surplus. I figure it was due partly to not going through that small second ferment, the other main reason is that it's one big volume of beer which conditions faster than many small volumes. The bottles did eventually catch up though, so oxidation clearly wasn't the issue. 

[James Lao]

I don’t think I shake my bottles as much as Gash did in that vid, but they do get a fair shake.

Maybe I just like saying bejesus at the moment.

My kegged  beer always tasted a lot better than the bottled ones from the same FV.

 But the bottles were from the last bit of the fermenter, so a fair bit of yeast and hop matter compared to the clean and clear first 18.5 litres that get in the keg - maybe that is a factor as well - along with no second ferment.

Cheers

James

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'd recommend not shaking them at all. They don't need it.

I can't remember if I took the few litres out of the fermenter for the bottles first or kegged the beer first now. But I did bulk prime the bottled portion so I left all the yeast and crap behind, and dry hops were contained in tea strainers. These days I don't bottle anything (currently), the surplus goes into a 10 litre keg and gets blended with another batch, and I take it before filling the main keg so the majority of the crap that might get dragged out through the tap ends up in the bastard keg rather than the main one. I don't blend lagers though, because I only make them to 21 litres, but I would like to get a bottling set up happening again so I can make them to 25 litres and bottle the surplus for a bit of extra stock.

[BlackSands]

Quite aside from not shaking the bottles (which I don't do myself) I think squeezing the air out of them, assuming PET bottles, is probably not a bad idea either.    And this certainly seems to put to bed the idea that the yeast scavenges up any oxygen that is in the bottle.   

[ChristinaS1]

I had no idea that shaking bottles was a thing, never mind common practice....Unfortunately I may have unwittingly done something very similar with my first batch of kegged beer. 

I will be tapping my first kegged batch tonight. I ferment in a glass carboy and my fermentation chamber is a chest freezer. In the past I have always filled my carboys up to 18L at pitching time, to both reduce the weight and leave room for the krausen; I then topped up the volume to 23L at bottling time. I never worried about the oxygen in the top up water because I figured the yeast would clean it up during carbonation. That may have been a faulty assumption and may explain some of my problems with hop fade! Anyway, I made this batch the same way.*

Because I knew I was introducing oxygen via the top up water I decided to naturally carb this batch, as per PB2's method. He calls for adding granulated sugar directly to the keg and then laying the keg on its side and rolling it around to dissolve the sugar and check for leaks, which is what I did. He does not call for purging the headspace with CO2 first. I realize now that this is pretty much the same thing as Gash was doing in his video, but in a keg. Yikes!....When naturally carbonating in kegs, there seems to be some debate about whether the headspace can be purged or not. What do you all think: do the yeast need the O2 in the head space to ferment the priming sugar? My guess is that they probably don't, because the yeast already present will be fermenting the priming sugar....They won't be going through another growth cycle, will they?

Cheers,

Christina

* I will be switching to using a plastic bucket for fermentation, so that I don't have to top up anymore and can try force carbonation.

[ChristinaS1]

@BlackSands Just wanted to let you know that I added a crushed Campden tablet (I chose to go with a sodium based one, as my water is low in sodium and it seems more "beery" than potassium) to a batch of beer I packaged today. 19L of treated beer went into a keg, which I will be force carbonating next week, and the remaining 4L (also treated) were bottled with 1 tsp of sugar per 450mL Grolsch bottle. It will be interesting to see the results. Are any of your PET bottles getting firm yet? I wonder so much if it will take longer than usual to carbonate. 

This is my first time bottle priming BTW. I did not shake them! 

Cheers,

Christina.

[BlackSands]

23 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

 Are any of your PET bottles getting firm yet? I wonder so much if it will take longer than usual to carbonate. 

I put one test bottle in my hot water closet (25 - 26ºC)... it was quite firm the next day.   The rest of the batch, at ambient temps have actually been carbonating much faster than a previous batch!  It's been 6 days now I think.   The previous batch was however fermented with Coopers A/L yeast and CC'd 6 days whereas this treated batch was only CC barely two days and fermented with Nottingham. 

[BlackSands]

Well!  This is good timing!  Brulosophy must have read my mind:   

Cold side oxidation impact of dosing beer with sodium metabisulfite at packaging - Exbeeriment results

Quote

 

"Just 5 days later, the beer packaged without SMB was beginning to look much darker."

"...participants in this xBmt were able to reliably distinguish a NEIPA packaged with SMB from one packaged without SMB."

 

So... SMB FTW ! 

[ChristinaS1]

Update: I kegged that beer I added SMB to on Sept 23 and force carbonated it. Drew my first glass last night, which was five days post addition. There is a distinct aroma and flavour of sulphur, similar to a lager, which is competing with the hops. I am not a fan. It may age out, but I am not really interested in letting a hoppy beer age.

Given that I have made some changes in my process to reduce oxygen ingress, and the fact that I have moved to kegs, I don't think I need SMB additions. I definitely had a problem with oxygen getting into my beer, but I am getting a lot less now....I don't see myself using SMB again.

@BlackSands I will be interested to hear if you notice sulphur notes in your IPA. Maybe a larger dry hop addition would drowned out the sulphur? I had 30gm in this brew.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah I think I'll probably not bother using it in my beer either. I haven't had any issues anyway. 

The pale ale that ran out on Friday night was probably about 4-5 weeks in the keg, sitting at ambient for the first two or so weeks before it went in the fridge. No real drop in hop presence, could smell it from a mile away when pouring a glass and the flavour was decent too. No change in color either. 

[joolbag]

Fascinating stuff.  I'm about to brew my first NEIPA and I bottle my beers.  No keg system until I renovate the house!

 

I've been looking for ways to preserve the hop aroma and limit oxidation.  I read a thread on reddit where someone was topping their bottles up to the brim before capping (glass of course).  This may be worth a try as well as K-metabisulf at bottling time.  Expensive experiment though with over 400g of hops per 23L batch!

[BlackSands]

16 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

....I don't see myself using SMB again.

@BlackSands I will be interested to hear if you notice sulphur notes in your IPA. Maybe a larger dry hop addition would drowned out the sulphur? I had 30gm in this brew.

Yes, I recall you elected to use SMB.  I had read it was generally not preferred over k-met (NaMB/potassium metabisulphite).  Not sure if that makes a difference?   

As it happens I have a freshly poured Pacific Golden Ale in front of me, still very young but it's the first beer I dosed with K-Met in the form of a single campden tablet when bottling.   I hadn't noticed any sulphur notes but after reading your post just now I gave the beer it a good sniff with sulphur in mind...  and well, just maybe...   maybe just the slightest hint of sulphur?  But to be honest, if I hadn't seen sulphur mentioned just now I'm sure I'd be completely oblivious to any hint of it in this beer.    The hops used in this beer are extremely mellow and like your brew, only 30g dry hop in this one so probably not the best platform to draw any solid conclusions re hop fade but perhaps a beer that would be more revealing of any sulphur presence.   It was actually an NZPA that followed, with a combined 100g hops added late/dry that I'm more interested in with regard to hop fade, that one might be more telling.   

Having said all that, Brulosophy like you actually used SMB in their NEIPA and yet there was no mention of sulphur being detected by anyone in their article.  Rather, just a majority preference for the SMB treated NEIPA.    I'm a little surprised you detected sulphur to be honest given the small dose used  - a LOT smaller than that used in wine for example. My recent red wine received around 10x the k-met over the month before it was eventually bottled and there's no hint of sulphur in early samplings of that.  

Anyway, unlike yourself and in the interest of being a bit more 'sciencey' about this I will continue to dose with a campden tablet for now.  I think a one-off experience is not really enough to draw any hard and fast conclusions.  Meanwhile, I've taken a photo of this brew and will compare how it looks in the weeks to come to see if there's any change in colour...   darkening I have actually observed with some brews in the past. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by BlackSands

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

27 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

I've taken a photo of this brew

Man takes a photo for simple comparison purposes but it still looks like a freakin work of art!

Probably on an iPhone 5 to boot!

[ChristinaS1]

I will be interested to hear how yours develops, and mine also. I may try venting the headspace in my keg from time to time, to see if that helps. 

7 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

 I had read it was generally not preferred over k-met (NaMB/potassium metabisulphite). 

Where did you read that? Was it in relation to wine or beer? K-Meta is most definitely preferred by wine-makers, but I have not read that in relation to beer. Anyway, it is sulphur I am noticing; I am not sure the salt it is attached to makes that much difference.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Norris!]

SMB can give off sulphur aromas, they say it can be cleaned up with fermentation and time.

What will venting the keg after fermentation and carbonation due? I am pretty sure it will just introduce more CO2 from your bottle but not sure it will get rid of oxygen that has already been purged when you seated the lid and pressurised the keg, because the oxygen has been released and the only thing in the keg now is beer and CO2, to me it seems like a wasted step for no gain but a cost of CO2.

Either way, good luck with the hop fade and oxygenation stuff. I am sure it will lead to better beers. One bit of advice, try limiting the number of changes to the process to allow for a clear understanding of the effects of the change and then you can determine if it is worth it to incorporate or not.

[BlackSands]

39 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I will be interested to hear how yours develops, and mine also. I may try venting the headspace in my keg from time to time, to see if that helps. 

Where did you read that? Was it in relation to wine or beer? K-Meta is most definitely preferred by wine-makers, but I have not read that in relation to beer. Anyway, it is sulphur I am noticing; I am not sure the salt it is attached to makes that much difference.

Cheers,

Christina.

I may be getting my wine and beer sulphite research mixed up!  I do recall reading that SMB can actually add a hint of saltiness... but I guess the dose would have to be at wine levels for that to be an issue.  I can't say where I read all these things... it was all just part of an general information gathering exercise.

[BlackSands]

26 minutes ago, Norris! said:

What will venting the keg after fermentation and carbonation due?

I'm assuming the idea is to release any SO⁴ that may have built up in the headspace due to the SMB addition.  

[Norris!]

That makes sense, cheers Blacksands.