jackgym Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I also use Miltons as per the directions, 12ml to 1L sprayer. NO rinsing needed and definitely no issues with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 15 hours ago, Dr. Hackenbushel said: Dismiss your advice? It's this sort of holier than thou "how dare you dismiss me" that I object to. All I said was "each to their own" or more correctly "to each their own" (if you're in to that level of grammatical pedantry) That means everyone has a right to their personal preferences. I prefer using bleach, you prefer using starsan. We can all still be friends if you simmer down a little. Haha you'll never get Kelsey to leave it alone ... Just how he is. Sometimes just not worth continuing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, jackgym said: I also use Miltons as per the directions, 12ml to 1L sprayer. NO rinsing needed and definitely no issues with it. That no rinsing direction isn't aimed at beer, it's aimed at general use. In that scenario it's fine. It's probably fine if brewing equipment is left to dry before use as it likely evaporates away. However, If you spray equipment with it then immediately put wort or beer into it before it dries then you risk introducing off flavors due to the chlorine present. That doesn't mean it'll definitely happen or that you aren't allowed to do it or whatever, it's just a risk of doing it and one that isn't worth taking in my view, and I'll continue to advise against allowing chlorine to be in contact with wort or beer whenever the subject comes up because it is best practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Kelsey, I'm not sure if you have mentioned it already but is there a risk of off flavours or chlorophenols when using a chlorine based no-rinse sanitiser? Sorry, I couldn't resist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I haven't seen anybody mention sodium metabisulphite in this thread. That concerns me because that suggests people aren't using it. Why aren't they using it? Is it like the asbestos of sterilisers?It's the most convenient steriliser for me to buy because there's a Big W near my work that sells it. Going by the name I figure it's not chlorine based. In my short brewing life I haven't encountered any off flavours yet but I also don't have a fussy palate. Bloody hell, I even like VB sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, Muzz1525230212 said: I haven't seen anybody mention sodium metabisulphite in this thread. That concerns me because that suggests people aren't using it. Why aren't they using it? Is it like the asbestos of sterilisers?It's the most convenient steriliser for me to buy because there's a Big W near my work that sells it. Going by the name I figure it's not chlorine based. In my short brewing life I haven't encountered any off flavours yet but I also don't have a fussy palate. Bloody hell, I even like VB sometimes. Sodium Metabisulphite is effective but when mixed with water is produces sulfur dioxide. This is more of an issue for people with breathing difficulties and asthmatics. If you haven't experienced any issues so far and it works then you should be fine. I think the Brigalow cleaner/sanitiser is Sodium Metabisulphite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Hairy said: Sodium Metabisulphite is effective but when mixed with water is produces sodium dioxide. This is more of an issue for people with breathing difficulties and asthmatics. If you haven't experienced any issues so far and it works then you should be fine. I think the Brigalow cleaner/sanitiser is Sodium Metabisulphite. Thanks Hairy. Will definitely avoid the fumes. Yes, the Brigalow one is the one I use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikes15 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 22 minutes ago, Hairy said: Sodium Metabisulphite is effective but when mixed with water is produces sulfur dioxide. This is more of an issue for people with breathing difficulties and asthmatics. If you haven't experienced any issues so far and it works then you should be fine. I think the Brigalow cleaner/sanitiser is Sodium Metabisulphite. Yup the brigalow is, Ive been using it to clean my bottles pre filling at 50gms into 1ltr water - swill, pour into next bottle, swill pour etc etc, stand 1hr, rinse, drain & bottle - use a couple of Liters per brew, its just the stuff I brought years ago & hasn't run out yet rather than an educated choice. Its HORRID to use, sulphite is an oxygen scavenger so breathing it in leaves you well, breathless,,,, I always have the window open over the sink to draft the fumes away. Also I has a reaction / rash come up on the back of my hand one time & I'm sure it was a chemical burn from not using gloves, now I ALWAYS wear the long sleeve dish gloves. Ill prob go to using Starsan & frequent bleach soaks once it runs out simply because the 125ml bottle will last me to the grave otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Metabisulphite, either sodium or potassium, is an effective sanitiser as well, it's the SO2 that does the work, but yes the fumes are shit. They use it in winemaking to kill off bugs in finished wine. I have some powdered potassium metabisulphite that I use to (sorry pro-chlorine crowd ) remove chlorine/chloramines from my brewing water and also sanitise my distilled water to prevent shit growing in it, but it's been exposed to too much humidity/moisture and is releasing a heap of SO2 whenever I open the bucket, meaning I have to use more of it to achieve the same results while holding my nose until the bucket is closed again . It not only hits you in the lungs but also stings the eyes. I'm gonna have to throw this lot out and buy some fresh stuff because it's fine until moisture affects it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Hackenbushel Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: I'm saying that rinsing is better than not rinsing when using bleach. There is a risk of developing off flavors by not rinsing it, even in small concentrations. Of course it's up to the individual whether they take that risk or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists. I don't know whether it's cheaper considering even a small bottle of starsan will last years (I bought a 125ml bottle about 6 years ago and still have about half of it left), but it most likely does kill more bugs. At 2-3 dollars for a 2l bottle is certainly is cheaper. I'm not convinced the risk is as high as you say. I'm not doubting that chlorophenols can be produced and ruin a batch of beer, just that using bleach as described will be a huge risk. Let's look at the facts. What you have told us through a series of posts is: 1) You have chloramines in your water supply. 2) you had one batch that was ruined by chlorophenols which you surmised may have been because they were flushing the system on that particular brewday. Presumably meaning a higher concentration of chloramines or free chlorine than other days. 3) since then you have been actively removing chlorine from your water. Perfectly reasonable. Is the risk just as high when using bleach no rinse as having chlorine in your brewing water? Id argue no. Chloramines are much more stable in solution than hypochlorite, especially when exposed to light. Using a solution of hypochlorite to sanitise is different from brewing in a solution of chloramines. Personally I've brewed a number of batches using bleach diluted 3ml per litre with an equal amount of vinegar sometimes rinsing with boiled filtered water, sometimes not and have never had a batch ruined by chlorophenols. I simply let things drain while attending to other business of brewing. I suspect the residual chlorine dissipates rapidly when the ph is lowered and there is not a large volume of solution. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried this and had any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 That's all fair enough. I have read of some issues that others have had over the years when using bleach, perhaps they used a higher concentration and didn't rinse it properly. I think we can all agree that you don't want chlorine in the beer, whether it's removed from water with metabisulphite or just evaporates away or whatever doesn't matter. As long as it isn't there you won't have a problem from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worthog Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Don't even start on the anecdotal connection between water containing chlorine traces and "band aid" taste when US-05 yeast (in particular) is used. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 What type of people are eating band aids to be able to describe something as a band aid taste? Is it a medicinal taste or a plastic type taste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Hackenbushel Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Tastes/smells like dettol. It's a chlorophenol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 9 hours ago, Mikes15 said: Yup the brigalow is, Ive been using it to clean my bottles pre filling at 50gms into 1ltr water - swill, pour into next bottle, swill pour etc etc, stand 1hr, rinse, drain & bottle - use a couple of Liters per brew, its just the stuff I brought years ago & hasn't run out yet rather than an educated choice. Its HORRID to use, sulphite is an oxygen scavenger so breathing it in leaves you well, breathless,,,, I always have the window open over the sink to draft the fumes away. Also I has a reaction / rash come up on the back of my hand one time & I'm sure it was a chemical burn from not using gloves, now I ALWAYS wear the long sleeve dish gloves. Ill prob go to using Starsan & frequent bleach soaks once it runs out simply because the 125ml bottle will last me to the grave otherwise Yep, I've suffered the back of hand rash too, Mike. I'm a bit more careful now when putting my hands in contact with the MBS. I don't use gloves but if I happen to get the back of my hands wet I rinse them off in water immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 It's interesting to note people talking about chlorine in their tap water. Being from Adelaide, our tap water has always tasted ordinary due to the processing by our water authority ie. the adding of fluoride and chlorine etc. I'm fortunate enough to have a Puratap water filter at home. I can't speak highly enough of the taste (or more to the point the lack of taste) it gives my drinking water. No chemical smells or flavours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 6 hours ago, Muzz1525230212 said: It's interesting to note people talking about chlorine in their tap water. Being from Adelaide, our tap water has always tasted ordinary due to the processing by our water authority ie. the adding of fluoride and chlorine etc. I'm fortunate enough to have a Puratap water filter at home. I can't speak highly enough of the taste (or more to the point the lack of taste) it gives my drinking water. No chemical smells or flavours. I don't know about Adelaide water not having been there since I was about 5 years old but I haven't noticed any chemical smells or flavors in Brisbane tap water. Even when I've been away for a while and come back to it, it just tastes like nothing. The distilled water I make tastes different, maybe because I'm not used to drinking water with no minerals in it. I suppose the different authorities probably have slightly different methods of water treatment too, but I certainly have no problem drinking the tap water here straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: I don't know about Adelaide water not having been there since I was about 5 years old but I haven't noticed any chemical smells or flavors in Brisbane tap water. Even when I've been away for a while and come back to it, it just tastes like nothing. The distilled water I make tastes different, maybe because I'm not used to drinking water with no minerals in it. I suppose the different authorities probably have slightly different methods of water treatment too, but I certainly have no problem drinking the tap water here straight. Adelaide being very dry doesn't always have enough rain to fill our reservoirs with fresh water. Therefore a lot of water is pumped from the River Murray to supplement our needs. Because we are right near the end of the Murray the water from there is high with pollutants and salinity from upstream so it needs to be treated to make it safe to drink. It has a real 'flavour' and slight smell to it. The water quality has improved over the years though. I remember when I was younger it used to be a little murky in appearance too but it's fairly clear now. Puratap do a raging business here, as do soap and detergent manufacturers. If I travel interstate, where the water is softer, I need to remember to use less soap and shampoo as it takes ages to rinse it off compared to home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 15 hours ago, Hairy said: What type of people are eating band aids to be able to describe something as a band aid taste? Don't knock it until you've tried it, Hairy. I'm quite partial to an Elastoplast. The cloth-like exterior has a nice mouth feel to it and I like the fact I can cut as much or little as I want. Not like those plastic Johnson & Johnson band aid strips, you have to eat the whole band aid immediately or it goes stale once unwrapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Muzz1525230212 said: Adelaide being very dry doesn't always have enough rain to fill our reservoirs with fresh water. Therefore a lot of water is pumped from the River Murray to supplement our needs. Because we are right near the end of the Murray the water from there is high with pollutants and salinity from upstream so it needs to be treated to make it safe to drink. It has a real 'flavour' and slight smell to it. The water quality has improved over the years though. I remember when I was younger it used to be a little murky in appearance too but it's fairly clear now. Puratap do a raging business here, as do soap and detergent manufacturers. If I travel interstate, where the water is softer, I need to remember to use less soap and shampoo as it takes ages to rinse it off compared to home. Quite a bit different to the situation up here then. I can understand the use of a filter system when the water presents like that. The dams here are high currently but there's almost always enough rain falling out there to top them up so there's never any water being pumped into them. I'm not sure how soft our water is compared to there though. It's definitely not like Melbourne water. Probably moderately hard as soap is easy enough to rinse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Muzz1525230212 said: Don't knock it until you've tried it, Hairy. I'm quite partial to an Elastoplast. The cloth-like exterior has a nice mouth feel to it and I like the fact I can cut as much or little as I want. Not like those plastic Johnson & Johnson band aid strips, you have to eat the whole band aid immediately or it goes stale once unwrapped. Since I’ve had kids I have found a new favourite. The Disney and other branded band aids are my favourite. So many different flavours to try! Frozen, Cars, Peppa Pig, Star Wars, etc. since I’ve discovered dry hopping with bandaids I don’t even need to bother with adding chlorine to my brewing water. I like the control of dry hopping bandaids to increase/reduce the chlorophenol influence Give it a try and report back!! Jools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikes15 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 47 minutes ago, joolbag said: Since I’ve had kids I have found a new favourite. The Disney and other branded band aids are my favourite. So many different flavours to try! Frozen, Cars, Peppa Pig, Star Wars, etc. since I’ve discovered dry hopping with bandaids I don’t even need to bother with adding chlorine to my brewing water. I like the control of dry hopping bandaids to increase/reduce the chlorophenol influence Give it a try and report back!! Jools Do you command hop those or use a bag / ball? I would be worried about them all getting stuck together if not commando'd & not being able to get the full flavour released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 I have often found the best way to treat water that is too soft is to put it in the freezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 You could just throw some Dettol into it at bottling time, sort of like a pre-made band-aid tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malter White Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 17 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: You could just throw some Dettol into it at bottling time, sort of like a pre-made band-aid tea. Good idea, Otto. Much more environmentally friendly too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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