Best cleaners

[Otto Von Blotto]

Good for them. Naturally you can do whatever you want with your brewing, but I'll base my brewing practice on proven science rather than someone's opinion.

Chlorine is a great sanitiser/disinfectant no doubt, but it's bad for beer. It doesn't take much of it to produce the compounds that produce the off flavors. Whether people can taste them or not depends on their threshold and how many exist in the beer, but they will exist regardless, if there is chlorine in the beer. 

I'm not telling anyone to stop using chlorine bleach, I'm just providing some factual information on why chlorine shouldn't be in contact with the beer itself. There's plenty of evidence that it causes problems. What people do with that information is up to them. When I learnt about it, even though I had had no problems with it from the brewing water, I still figured prevention was best and began removing it from the water.

There have been a few complaints on here at various times about the exact off flavors chlorine causes. I don't know why anyone would want to knowingly risk that, but it's their beer.

[Dr. Hackenbushel]

Each to their own 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Indeed. When you spend 5 or 6 hours creating the wort you tend to be a bit more concerned with things that will potentially ruin it because it's a lot of time and effort wasted if it is ruined. The topic is best cleaners. Based on the information I've provided, bleach is not the best cleaner or no rinse sanitiser for brewing. There are other products that will do the same job without the risk of introducing shitty flavors to the beer. Whether you want to take that on board or ignore it is up to you, I couldn't really give a rat's arse, but it might help other people make a more informed decision about what they want to use to clean and sanitise their equipment, that's why I posted it in response to people recommending bleach. There's always gonna be someone who ignores any ideas or advice that differs from their own with throwaway comments like "each to their own". Doesn't change the facts.

[Dr. Hackenbushel]

Bleach is a fantastic cleaner and sanitiser.  It's cheap and readily available. 

Adding acetic acid to dilute solutions of bleach will produce more hypochlourous acid making it even more potent as a sanitiser. This means you can use it at concentrations that make it "no rinse".  Still if you worry just rinse. 

You are not the gatekeeper of homebrewing.

There will always be people who disagree with you and have opinions different to yours. 

Learn to deal with it without getting your knickers in a twist. 

 

 

[Norris!]

I found this thread very lively! Fight! Fight!

Just kidding, I think we all want the same thing, good beer. Now here is the sticking point, how to get good beer by following good sanitation practices. I think the main point Kelsey had was the increased opportunity for off batches by using bleach. I think he has a fair point. I also think PB2 and the good Dr also have a point, the main difference being the extra rinsing needed or the extra ingredients needed to make the bleach safer and not needing the extra rinsing. As we live in Australia, I am all for conserving water whenever I can, which makes the bleach option not as good as a no rinse option. As for the adding ingredients to make the bleach no rinse, my only concern is the extra cost and extra step.

At the end it seems the best approach is using a no rinse sanitizer that doesn't require extra water. We all have figure out what works best, but leveraging the experience of others can help eliminate mistakes.

Good discussion guys,

Norris

[Otto Von Blotto]

I didn't say it wasn't a fantastic cleaner and sanitiser overall. I said it wasn't the best no rinse sanitiser for brewing. Residual chlorine results in chlorophenols, that's not an opinion, it's scientific fact. If you leave chlorine in your equipment they will form. I don't want them in my beer and neither would anyone else who wants to brew the best beer they can because they taste bloody awful. It's not about being poisoned by the bleach or anything, it's purely about the potential for off flavors in the beer.

I never claimed to be the gatekeeper of brewing or any other such nonsense, I'm simply posting the information so people know about it when deciding what they'll use, not directly responding to anyone in particular, or implying that those who leave diluted bleach on their equipment are stupid, perhaps they're not able to taste the effects.

[Mikes15]

Picked up some Brewtec no rinse steriliser (big claim,,,,,), which ironically goes on to say "effectively sanitises everything you use for brewing", so not a steriliser at all then, an just when I thought Id found the holy grail of cleaners for brewing, a home use Steriliser,,,,,

Either way, Pure Sodium Percarbonate, 250g for about $5nz from Pack N Save, 10 FV washes as per instructions, 50c each, I think I can accomadate that,,,,

PS - was the LHBS who first told me to just use bleach, "just rinse & leave it in the sun to dry" was the MO.

Disclaimer - Would still be happy to use a splash of bleach with hot water & a good rinse if I had to.

 

[Beer Baron]

I just use spit and a rag to clean my equipment

[The Captain!!]

26 minutes ago, Beer Baron said:

I just use spit and a rag to clean my equipment

Do you make that in the traditional way?

Kinda like that Mexican half chewed up corn and spit beer? 

[Cerveja]

40ml bleach then 40ml vinegar into 20L of water in fermenter. Founder of Starsan is on record saying this is a better sanitiser. No wild infections since I switched to this. Oh, no rinse also but I do.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Just to clarify, I was not arguing against the effectiveness of bleach as a sanitiser, it's probably one of the best there is in terms of killing microbes etc. My only point was that residual chlorine is bad in beer, and this is universally known in brewing circles. I have advised the use of bleach before in instances of persistent infection issues that other products won't get rid of, but I've also always advised it be thoroughly rinsed afterwards, for that exact reason. The chlorine is bad for beer. 

I've tasted chlorophenols in one batch I made. At the time I didn't know what caused the flavor but after learning about the issues with residual chlorine, it was the most likely cause. So, forgive me if I get a bit riled up by someone essentially dismissing my advice that is based on facts, not opinions, and that was only ever given to try to help others avoid experiencing the same thing, because it's effing awful. 

[Cerveja]

Would never question you Kelsey, you are the main source of most of my brewing knowledge. I had a couple of gushers and bombs end of last year so did some googling and settled on the bleach/vinegar option. Was quite a lot of info, some scientific, on it. They were adamant it is no rinse at that concentration but I prefer to rinse. You do have to make sure it is always bleach first into water, then the vinegar and be very wary of fumes. So far, so good.

[Dr. Hackenbushel]

19 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Just to clarify, I was not arguing against the effectiveness of bleach as a sanitiser, it's probably one of the best there is in terms of killing microbes etc. My only point was that residual chlorine is bad in beer, and this is universally known in brewing circles. I have advised the use of bleach before in instances of persistent infection issues that other products won't get rid of, but I've also always advised it be thoroughly rinsed afterwards, for that exact reason. The chlorine is bad for beer. 

I've tasted chlorophenols in one batch I made. At the time I didn't know what caused the flavor but after learning about the issues with residual chlorine, it was the most likely cause. So, forgive me if I get a bit riled up by someone essentially dismissing my advice that is based on facts, not opinions, and that was only ever given to try to help others avoid experiencing the same thing, because it's effing awful. 

Dismiss your advice? 

It's this sort of holier than thou "how dare you dismiss me" that I object to. 

 All I said was "each to their own" or more correctly "to each their own" (if you're in to that level of grammatical pedantry) 

That means everyone has a right to their personal preferences.  I prefer using bleach, you prefer using starsan. 

We can all still be friends if you simmer down a little. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I have no issues with it being no rinse from a point of view other than leaving chlorine behind. That's the only thing that would potentially cause problems in the beer. It's also enough for me to not use it as a no rinse solution having tasted the effects of residual chlorine. Not really keen on tipping out 20 odd litres of beer I've waited weeks for. I would use bleach if I got a persistent infection problem though, just to try to get rid of it.

It's unfortunate because it is a better sanitiser than starsan and the like, but using those products hasn't resulted in any infection either, and I don't have the risk of chlorophenols.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Because it comes across like "well I have no problems so what you're saying doesn't matter". I never said people can't use what they like. I never said bleach doesn't work. My only point was that it's well known that residual chlorine is bad for beer. That's it.  My only motivation in posting it was to try to help others avoid or at least be aware of those potential issues with not rinsing bleach solutions off equipment. What they decide to do with the information is their problem. 

[Worthog]

I like non scented bleach to clean out the haze in my PET and glass bottles, as suggested by PB2 on this forum. It works brilliantly; just a cap-full in the bottle, fill with cold water, stand overnight. Next day sparkling clean bottles.

Then I rinse the bleach (and chlorine) out with hot water. My bottles then go through a 2 stage preparation process before bottling; Hot alkaline salts wash, cold rinse. Than cold Stellasan (phosphoric acid) sanitation. Air dry, then bottle up. 

1500 bottles later, no infections, no bad taste effects.

Bleach for sanitizing, no. I think, like Kelsey, the chlorine taste contamination not worth the risk. Bleach for hard cleaning, yes. 

Cheers

[Mikes15]

11 minutes ago, Worthog said:

I like non scented bleach to clean out the haze in my PET and glass bottles, as suggested by PB2 on this forum. It works brilliantly; just a cap-full in the bottle, fill with cold water, stand overnight. Next day sparkling clean bottles.

Then I rinse the bleach (and chlorine) out with hot water. My bottles then go through a 2 stage preparation process before bottling; Hot alkaline salts wash, cold rinse. Than cold Stellasan (phosphoric acid) sanitation. Air dry, then bottle up. 

1500 bottles later, no infections, no bad taste effects.

Bleach for sanitizing, no. I think, like Kelsey, the chlorine taste contamination not worth the risk. Bleach for hard cleaning, yes. 

Cheers

The bleach bottle cap, PET bottle cap or a crown crimp bottle cap?, my bottles are loooooonnnnngggg over due a good clean!

PS - Bit paranoid I started this by saying I use bleach so for the record I did say I also give a good hot rinse, wouldn't dream of using it no rinse based on my nose as appose to science or wizardry!

Also my water is rain collect, filtered & UV'd so ZERO chlorine or chlorine removing chemicals in my brew water

[PB2]

On 7/23/2018 at 6:20 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

I've never had problems but I figure it's better to prevent the problem before it becomes one.

 

23 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

When I learnt about it, even though I had had no problems with it from the brewing water, I still figured prevention was best and began removing it from the water.

 

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I've tasted chlorophenols in one batch I made. At the time I didn't know what caused the flavor but after learning about the issues with residual chlorine, it was the most likely cause. So, forgive me if I get a bit riled up by someone essentially dismissing my advice that is based on facts, not opinions, and that was only ever given to try to help others avoid experiencing the same thing, because it's effing awful. 

Glad you cleared that up 

I regularly employ bleach when cleaning and sanitising and I have never (yes never) experienced the chlorophenol fault in my beer...

[Worthog]

PET bottle cap ful. I have rain tank water too. You will be awed by haze removing result. Cheers

[Dr. Hackenbushel]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Because it comes across like "well I have no problems so what you're saying doesn't matter". I never said people can't use what they like. I never said bleach doesn't work. My only point was that it's well known that residual chlorine is bad for beer. That's it.  My only motivation in posting it was to try to help others avoid or at least be aware of those potential issues with not rinsing bleach solutions off equipment. What they decide to do with the information is their problem. 

It only comes across that way because you adopt the stance that your unsolicited advice must be adhered to and fail to recognise other points of view. 

Bleach is a better sanitiser than starsan you're right. Rinsing it until every errant molecule of chlorine is gone will do no harm. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I forgot about that batch Paul was about 5 years ago and the only one in however many I've made and it was terrible so I guess I'd rather forget it . I suspect it was from the brewing water though. Maybe they were doing a flush of the system that week or something.

1 hour ago, Dr. Hackenbushel said:

Bleach is a better sanitiser than starsan you're right. Rinsing it until every errant molecule of chlorine is gone will do no harm. 

I'm not saying that rinsing it will do harm, the complete opposite actually. Not rinsing it may do harm depending on how much is left behind. Also different people detect it at different levels, an amount one person can't taste another might be able to. If it didn't ever cause problems there wouldn't be complaints about it or countless articles warning about it and advising to remove chlorine all over the web. I won't take the risk, if others do that's their business, but it doesn't hurt anyone to be informed.

[Dr. Hackenbushel]

So what you are saying is that bleach is the best sanitiser because it is cheaper and more effective than starsan,  and rinsing will do no harm? 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm saying that rinsing is better than not rinsing when using bleach. There is a risk of developing off flavors by not rinsing it, even in small concentrations. Of course it's up to the individual whether they take that risk or not, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists.

I don't know whether it's cheaper considering even a small bottle of starsan will last years (I bought a 125ml bottle about 6 years ago and still have about half of it left), but it most likely does kill more bugs. 

[RepSpec]

i use the miltons product in the 1ltr bottle (i think)

says it does 80ltrs

i get a 40ltr tub, half fill it with water and half the bottle of miltons.

Wash and soak everything (FV, tap, spoons,etc) for at least 15 minutes...the FV takes about an hour to soak (turning to make sure its done all around). Then soak the bottles and caps for the same time and the let them dry before using them in the coming hours.

Never had issues out of 12 or so brews...no ones ever mentioned off flavours...

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't trust my mates to be totally honest with feedback on my beers anyway, they'd probably say it was nice even if it did taste like antiseptic mouthwash because it's free booze

Not saying you'll 100% get off flavors every batch or anything, just that there is a risk of it occurring when using chlorine based cleaners and not rinsing it off. Some guys have had the same problem just from using chlorinated tap water to brew with. Chlorophenols can be detected at only a few parts per billion, but it depends on the individual too. Some can taste very low amounts while others can't.