Fermentasaurus

[Marty_G]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

I think the 'gear lust' is probably more about looking for increased convenience, streamlining and simplifying aspects of the process so we can continue to make and drink great beer with even greater ease!  

Spot on, I know that if you are looking for something that is easier you would not do pressurised ferment as it is not and even the simplest methods will still need an outlay of over $50 plus freight if you already have kegs if not add another $100.00 and then you have to address the issue of bottling.   Yep talking myself out of it.  

[PaddyBrew2]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

I remembered I was also going to query this but I forgot!   

I do wonder if when we consider purchasing new brewing gear or look at changing some aspect of our process etc whether a better question we should ask ourselves is "is there actually anything wrong with the beer I'm currently brewing?"   I regularly read brewers stating that they are very happy with their beer and they often believe it to be superior to many commercial offerings. I'm one of them.  So that does leave me wondering what it is folks are actually trying to achieve?  I have a feeling it's not really about improving the quality of the beer...  we know we can already make great tasting beer in the most basic of equipment, using excellent quality ingredients that are available these days.  I think the 'gear lust' is probably more about looking for increased convenience, streamlining and simplifying aspects of the process so we can continue to make and drink great beer with even greater ease!  

I disagree. I started out on kits and bits as all modern home brewers have, Partial mashes etc. The beer was very  drinkable but I knew it could have been a lot better. The move to all grain proved that which came with it the increased expense of the equipment. In terms of what people are trying to achieve ,  I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the home brewer wanting to evolve and that includes moving to pressurised fermentation.  Of course you’ll still produce great beer with the coopers or airlock type FV but you’ll also learn a lot more by pushing the boundaries of what you are used to  and that in itself is a great achievement.  

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think it's just human nature to constantly be looking for ways to improve the existing outcome/situation. It's a bit like sport, the best athletes are never satisfied and always striving to improve. I know I was like that when I regularly played cricket and golf, and I'm still like that with my current hobbies. That's not to say I'm not happy with my beers and other stuff, but I often do ponder how I can make it even better. 

In saying that, I can't be bothered with pressurised fermentation, but more because I'm not sure if the improvement is worth the effort and expense. Plus my brew fridges may not fit one of those things in, I know my original one won't but unsure about the other one.

I do brew lagers about ⅓ of the time, however I'm not sure it'd be that much better than my current oxygenation of wort, pitching a shitload of yeast, fermenting low and lagering for a while (when I can). They taste how I want them to. 

[PaddyBrew2]

Spot on. We all brew cos we love it. I’m not flush by any means but if there is equipment I want to get , I just sacrifice other things to save for it 

[BlackSands]

52 minutes ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

The beer was very  drinkable but I knew it could have been a lot better. The move to all grain proved that which came with it the increased expense of the equipment.

I brew with grain with my simple stove top kit so no increase in expense over what I was already using.  I certainly wouldn't say my AG is a LOT better but then I guess there's not actual definition of what "a lot" actually means.  I think my AG's are excellent, but only 'marginally' better than my partials.   I really can't think of what more I would want in the way of improvements to be honest...  the beers already seem like they're plenty good enough already, most times anyway!   Every time I have a commercial beer, craft or otherwise I am immediately reminded that my beer is already of a comparable standard.   Out of curiosity, what's missing from your current brews that you think could be improved on?  What's your benchmark?    

[PaddyBrew2]

In terms of improvements , I’ve never had an infection or off flavours or any issues I need to correct or work on. I just find it rewarding that you can keep trying to perfect a certain recipe until you feel you have nailed it so to speak. For example my black ipa and witbeir. In comparison to their commercial counterparts I feel mine or on a par or even better. That’s the benchmark at the beginning. But then as you grow into this hobby and see some certain things you can also do it piques your interest.  I’ve already spent the bones of two grand at least making the switch to AG and kegging.  A hundred bucks on a plastic unitank is a low price to pay to continue evolving. 

[Marty_G]

3 hours ago, BlackSands said:

What's your benchmark? 

Great question, as a fella now in his mid 60's who does not get out as much as he did since the tree change 2 years ago, I suppose mine is the new hop driven, for want of a better discription,  beers the commercial craft brewers sell.  You know the one's 4 Pines, Fat Yak, James Squires and others. The brands that are produced by brewing companies which in reality are all subsidiaries of the big two commerials in Australia, CUB and Lion Nathan who in reality are Ashai and Kirin.  The orginal brewers may not have started as commercaily produced beers but they are now.   

2 hours ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

 I’ve already spent the bones of two grand at least making the switch to AG and kegging.

No judgement here but that to me is just crazy.  But I suppose done over time is not unrealistic if you buy top quality new gear. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[PaddyBrew2]

I don’t reckon that’s crazy. I reckon that’s on a par with most brewers to do AG and keg. My kegerator is brand new and the latest model so that was a good chunk of change. I also bought the brewzilla with all the trimmings. Yes is $2k approx but it pays for itself no end. I’m a single fella saving for my 10% deposit to get out of a rent trap. The initial outlay for this equipment whilst i save is a shrewd investment. Before I started home brewing I was spending $90 a week on craft beer. Now I can get 40 litres of it for $90 

[Red devil 44]

I think it’s all personal preference, the Fermzilla looks ok, but everybody has different budgets for our great hobby, I guess whatever floats your boat ?

Great discussion

[PaddyBrew2]

I’d sell my mother to kegland for their latest contraption 

[Marty_G]

1 minute ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

I’d sell my mother to kegland for their latest contraption 

In the name of the holy father that is no way for a good Irish boy to speak! 

[Red devil 44]

11 minutes ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

I’d sell my mother to kegland for their latest contraption 

Your mother or 100 cartons of Guinness delivered Christmas Eve ( direct from Ireland ) ?

[Marty_G]

I suppose the thing about investing in the hobby has a lot to do with your personality.  For example there is no way that I would even consider buying things like a stainless steel conical fermenter or a grainfather or even a Keg King kegerator. It is just not in my make up to do that. There are cheaper lower tech options that gets the same result.

In the context of all grain brewing I read here about how good AG tastes and think maybe "the other side of the grass is greener" but as Blacksands said "is there actually anything wrong with the beer I'm currently brewing?"  I like what I brew,  I add grain to my extracts when needed,  I use temp control, I harvest yeast, I keg, I do a lot right so is spending the money to get the gear to do AG BIAB worth it?  Will the extra time needed  really benefit me?   Home brew to me is making a good drinkable beer using rudimentary products. I take pride in the knowledge that I can make really good quality stuff in a plastic bucket and when someone asks me how, I can explain to them in  4 simple steps.   

 

So now back to pressurised fermentation. Is it a trendy fad?   I suppose it is a fad because I don't recall too many posts saying I do this with all my brews and it is the "bees knees".

I see the bebefits of conical fermenters and trub harvseting but those bad boys are so BIG no way can fit that into a brew fridge.  So it looks like the best option is just an "All Rounder" or "snub nose"  they are $70-80 but I need to add a pressure kit, a spunding valve and freight to Qld, so that doubles the price.  Just so fermentation under pressure can be done in a concial bucket.   Sort of seems redundant to me when it can be done in another pressure container.     

 

[Cosmo2450]

My fermzilla fits in my fridge. And the claim of fame is that you don’t need temp control with it for some reason. Personal preference but I love it. The beers are great, tasting samples already carbed up, dry hopping with no oxygen added. I’ve only brewed one batch with temp control and it won’t be touched for 6 months. But it’s brew day today and it’s a recipe I’ve done before with no temp control and it was spot on. 

[Marty_G]

14 minutes ago, Cosmo2450 said:

My fermzilla fits in my fridge. And the claim of fame is that you don’t need temp control with it for some reason. Personal preference but I love it. The beers are great, tasting samples already carbed up, dry hopping with no oxygen added. I’ve only brewed one batch with temp control and it won’t be touched for 6 months. But it’s brew day today and it’s a recipe I’ve done before with no temp control and it was spot on. 

So with the no temp control give me an idea of where you live, not sure we could get away with it in QlD summer well pretty much anywhere this summer.  The dry hopping with out oxygen. Do you do that buy the pressure transfer of do it just be releing it and then re-pressurising it?  How many brew have you done under pressure and do you do all the brews under pressure?  Great to see someone using them and loving it.   What to you is the biggest advantage to the pressure brewing? 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I didn't move to AG because I thought there was anything wrong with my beers, I just wanted to get more involved in the process and learn more about it. It just so happened that the quality of the beer did improve. 

I often like to make my own stuff but sometimes I just can't be bothered or don't have the time. That's why I bought a kegerator, which also fits neatly into the bar. I know it was more expensive to do the same job although it was put together over probably 3 months so it wasn't a huge outlay all at once. I'm happy with the setup, it'd be nice having more taps but if I did that I wouldn't be able to have it behind the bar because it simply wouldn't fit. 

[Malter White]

13 hours ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

I don’t reckon that’s crazy. I reckon that’s on a par with most brewers to do AG and keg. My kegerator is brand new and the latest model so that was a good chunk of change. I also bought the brewzilla with all the trimmings. Yes is $2k approx but it pays for itself no end. I’m a single fella saving for my 10% deposit to get out of a rent trap. The initial outlay for this equipment whilst i save is a shrewd investment. Before I started home brewing I was spending $90 a week on craft beer. Now I can get 40 litres of it for $90 

I was going through at least a carton a week of commercial beer, usually more. So roughly $2,500-$3,000 a year. I haven't spent $2K on my brewing equipment....yet...but it's not an unreasonable spend with the savings you're making. And you're probably making better beer too.

[Malter White]

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

I suppose the thing about investing in the hobby has a lot to do with your personality.  For example there is no way that I would even consider buying things like a stainless steel conical fermenter or a grainfather or even a Keg King kegerator. It is just not in my make up to do that. There are cheaper lower tech options that gets the same result.

In the context of all grain brewing I read here about how good AG tastes and think maybe "the other side of the grass is greener" but as Blacksands said "is there actually anything wrong with the beer I'm currently brewing?"  I like what I brew,  I add grain to my extracts when needed,  I use temp control, I harvest yeast, I keg, I do a lot right so is spending the money to get the gear to do AG BIAB worth it?  Will the extra time needed  really benefit me?   Home brew to me is making a good drinkable beer using rudimentary products. I take pride in the knowledge that I can make really good quality stuff in a plastic bucket and when someone asks me how, I can explain to them in  4 simple steps.    

 

I'm with you, MartyG. I've considered kegging, all grain and all the other wonderful things we can do as brewers but can I be bothered with some of the work involved?
I don't like washing bottles but it only takes me about 30-40 minutes per brew. Many other brewers don't like washing bottles because of the time it takes but they have no issue spending 4 hours boiling and mixing grains.
As you say, it has a lot to do with your personality. There's no right or wrong way, it's what is right for you.

[Cosmo2450]

34 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

So with the no temp control give me an idea of where you live, not sure we could get away with it in QlD summer well pretty much anywhere this summer.  The dry hopping with out oxygen. Do you do that buy the pressure transfer of do it just be releing it and then re-pressurising it?  How many brew have you done under pressure and do you do all the brews under pressure?  Great to see someone using them and loving it.   What to you is the biggest advantage to the pressure brewing? 

I’m on the north coast of NSW where a cold winters day is 21 degrees and a warm summers day is 38. I’ve brewed say 75% of my brews under pressure and now 100% of my future brews. I don’t know if my knowledge in homebrewing improved at the time I started or if it really is the brewing under pressure thing, but I really can’t fault my beers. 

I only starting brewing with a brew fridge because one basically fell on my lap  I wasn’t going out of my way to buy one when to be honest I felt I didn’t need one. 

Dry hopping without oxygen requires you to turn the butterfly valve off , take off the collection bottle, do what you do with trub (I just tip it down the sink) clean and sanitise than add the dry hops and screw back onto the fermenter, but before you open the valve, I have those PET bottle caps with the ball lock attachment thingys, I purge three times then I’ll open up the butterfly valve  

The ease of transferring carbonated beer to a keg with 0 oxygen is a huge plus. Saves a bit on co2. Also watching it ferment is very hypnotic  

Now there is one thing I don’t like about it and that is cleaning it. But who likes cleaning stuff!? 

[Otto Von Blotto]

48 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

I'm with you, MartyG. I've considered kegging, all grain and all the other wonderful things we can do as brewers but can I be bothered with some of the work involved?
I don't like washing bottles but it only takes me about 30-40 minutes per brew. Many other brewers don't like washing bottles because of the time it takes but they have no issue spending 4 hours boiling and mixing grains.
As you say, it has a lot to do with your personality. There's no right or wrong way, it's what is right for you.

That's because doing an AG brew day is a lot more fun than washing bottles which is basically a chore plus the satisfaction upon tasting the finished beer knowing the effort that went into making it. What do you get after washing bottles? Yay...clean bottles... A necessary part of brewing for sure, just not a very fun part.

[Malter White]

3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That's because doing an AG brew day is a lot more fun than washing bottles which is basically a chore plus the satisfaction upon tasting the finished beer knowing the effort that went into making it. What do you get after washing bottles? Yay...clean bottles... A necessary part of brewing for sure, just not a very fun part.

Although I haven't done it yet, I can't see mashing grains as being fun. He but if it's right for you that's all that matters.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I suppose it wouldn't be fun if you just stood there watching it the whole time but you don't. Just put them in and leave it for an hour or whatever and go and do something else while you wait. I usually do a bit of cleaning up or put on/hang out some washing or whatever, relax with a beer with some tunes or something on. The actual process of doughing in and stirring the grains at the beginning isn't a great lot of fun but it only takes a few minutes. 

The process itself takes a number of hours as we all know, but the time spent actively doing stuff with the brew is probably under an hour. The majority of the time is just waiting for something to finish. I mean, it takes all of a minute to weigh out some hops and throw them in for example, but there's no need to stand there watching it boil the whole time. 

[Malter White]

12 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I suppose it wouldn't be fun if you just stood there watching it the whole time but you don't. Just put them in and leave it for an hour or whatever and go and do something else while you wait. I usually do a bit of cleaning up or put on/hang out some washing or whatever, relax with a beer with some tunes or something on. The actual process of doughing in and stirring the grains at the beginning isn't a great lot of fun but it only takes a few minutes. 

The process itself takes a number of hours as we all know, but the time spent actively doing stuff with the brew is probably under an hour. The majority of the time is just waiting for something to finish. I mean, it takes all of a minute to weigh out some hops and throw them in for example, but there's no need to stand there watching it boil the whole time. 

Sounds like you could use that spare time washing bottles. Want me to drop some over?

[BlackSands]

22 minutes ago, MUZZY said:

Although I haven't done it yet, I can't see mashing grains as being fun. He but if it's right for you that's all that matters.

Well,  what you do is you heat up some water, drop a bag of grains in and do whatever it is you do to maintain the mash temperature and then walk away and do something else for an hour or so.  That can be an enormous amount of fun depending what it is you're actually doing while the mash is happening of course!   Washing bottles perhaps?     Seriously though, it probably depends on how you define 'fun'.  I think of AG more as actual brewing where as when I do extracts and kits it's more like mixing a bunch ingredients. Instant coffee vs espresso where you mill your own beans etc.   AG brewing is definitely work....  but is it fun?   Well, certainly not in a amusement park kinda of way of course but perhaps fun in a personal satisfaction, hands-on, 'I made it from scratch' kind of way. 

And, speaking of bottle washing etc...

1 hour ago, MUZZY said:

I don't like washing bottles but it only takes me about 30-40 minutes per brew. Many other brewers don't like washing bottles because of the time it takes

I'm getting this whole chore done a lot quicker these days by not doing it in bulk.  I wash bottles immediately after use.  For some bottles this is just a matter of giving them really good rinse then a blast with starsan, capped and then back into storage.  Others that need a bit more attention get a capful of bleach, topped up with water and put aside for a wee while.  Then later given a thorough rinse, a blast of starsan, capped and then also into storage.  So, on bottling day I have no bottles to wash, as they're already clean, sanitised and ready to go.    It really does take the tedium out of the job!  

Edited December 23, 2019 by BlackSands

[Red devil 44]

I think I will make the switch to AG next yr, I have no problems or quality with my K & K brews, but knowing myself I will take the plunge ( just gotta sort out under the house a bit more to create a brewing room ).

Then I guess I’ll be asking lots of questions on this forum to the Jedi Masters of AG brewing