Bohemian Pilsner

[headmaster]

Keen to hear how that goes Kelsey.

 

I’ve got a couple of Urquell notes to report on here.

 

First of all, the above beer that I made recently tastes really good, much better than my previous attempts.

 

The new packet of liquid yeast, White Labs WLP800, also performed much much better than my last lot of WLP800. Leads me to believe that my original WLP 800 I had was compromised. It was prone to stalling, was slow, threw massive H2S even when pitched in large quantities, but more significantly did not really taste like Urquell.

 

I've already got another batch of Czech Pils, similar to my above recipe but with carapils instead of carahells, 7 days in from pitch. I used harvested yeast to pitch into that one, but had a lot more than I managed to create with my 2L + 4L stepped starter that was used for the above batch. Pitched about 500ml of compacted yeast that was harvested about 15 days prior, into wort temp 10c at about 9pm, next morning about 10 hours later it had a 5cm krausen, still at 10c. Was pretty much finished in 4 days, no H2S smell whatsoever this time (there was a little with the one brewed with the stepped starter)

 

It already tastes and smells super clean, going through the diacetyl rest now at 15c but doesn’t really need it, but good to ramp it to make sure it’s fully attenuated I guess.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Glad to hear the latest batches are going better mate! Shame about the last lot of yeast though, just goes to show the importance of yeast health especially in beers like this where flaws are more easily noticed.

 

I'm still re-using the same smackpack that I mentioned buying way back in the first post of this thread, so far it has produced the goods every time. I used it in my XXXX rip off too, and it did work well, but I have some 2042 for the next go at that one.

 

I have a couple of pale ales lined up to brew next, but after that I'll be doing another Bo pils, and this time I'll throw in a flameout addition of Saaz to see what difference that makes to the end result.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[headmaster]

That's awesome Otto, you still have the original smack pack yeast going. I probably would have too but for the fact that it was such a disappointment, but my faith has been restored now that my current WLP800 is performing so well.

 

It's like chalk and cheese. Might not be white labs's fault, I might have screwed up a harvest, way back there at batch 8 or 9 I think it was, maybe earlier, now two years later on to batch 44. But even the first one stalled and didn't have that delicate urquell 'taste'.

 

So now have WLP029 kolsch, WLP800 and US05 on rotation in my brewery :-) May consider buying another hoegaarden witbier 3944 as made some wicked witbiers with that one.

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah I'm actually pretty surprised that it's lasted this long. I suppose I'm gonna have to go through the problem of brewing a batch with off flavours to know how many re-uses I can get out of it like I did with the US-05, but yeah as long as it keeps going well I'll keep re-using it.

 

Yours might have just been not at its best for some reason, maybe poorly stored at some point between White Labs and when you got it or something, who knows, but it's great that the new one is going much better. I've only used this strain and W34/70 in lager yeasts so far, and I probably prefer the Urquell strain of the two. Planning on trying the Budvar strain next too.

 

My yeast library at the moment contains Wy2001, Wy1469, Wy2042, Wy1272 and US-05. The US-05 will be replaced by 1272 after I ferment my next pale ale with the US-05. The 2042 I'm only using once in another batch of the XXXX rip off; I don't plan on brewing those much again if at all, it was just an experiment to see if I could really. So after that it'll be 2001, 1272 and 1469.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I pitched my latest batch of this on Sunday arvo at about 2pm and it is finally showing active signs of fermentation now, although I'm not exactly surprised at that with the Wy2001 yeast. It has been a pretty common occurrence over the time I've used it.

 

Anyway, this batch was the first batch I used pure O2 in, that process all went smoothly enough, although I suppose I could have run it for a bit longer. Anyway, it's all trial and error since I don't have a DO meter. I don't really care about the lag time that much but I am interested in how long the fermentation actually takes, as well as the flavour of the beer when ti's ready. I'll take a sample on Friday to see where it's at.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[headmaster]

Was just reading an Avery Brewing recipe today, 15. something % ABV. They said it needed massive O2 so the procedure was to hit it with pure O2 4 times during the first 5 days I think it was. So if you were looking at making a massive beer like this properly, seems you need an O2 bottle

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yep the high gravity brews need pure O2 to get to the required level of oxygen for the yeast, there just isn't any other way to get there. The problem of course is that as the SG rises, the solubility decreases, perhaps this is why they dose it a few times over a few days post pitching the yeast.

[headmaster]

I do have recent experience however, of making that IIPA, which was 1.088, got to 1.017 in about 4 days, and finished at 1.015, just bottled it a couple of nights ago, about 13 days from pitching yeast, 5 days cold crashed. I just did my usual pour in to FV from a height to splash o2 in to solution. But I pitched prob a trillion cells of harvested US05.

 

Going to closer to 15% ABV would probably need some extra o2 to get it to finish in a decent amount of time I suppose.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, you can get away with it, and pitching more cells probably helps too as they don't need to multiply as much, so the need for oxygen is lessened a little.

 

This pilsner batch now has a nice krausen on top of it. Definitely curious to see where the SG is on Friday. I suspect with the long lag time that it will probably be around the same as it usually is on day 5, but maybe the fermentation is occurring faster. I'll evaluate it further down the track and work out whether or not I'll inject O2 for longer next time.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Mark D Pirate]

G'day Otto and other experienced Lager / Pils brewers

 

Any chance you could give me your opinion on a Bavarian Pils recipe i'm tinkering with ?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/422387 for full recipe

 

 

4 kg German - Bohemian Pilsner

0.25 kg German - Carapils

0.25 kg German - Munich Light

0.15 kg German - Acidulated Malt

Total: 4.65 kg

Hallertau

to 25 IBU

60 , 20 & 10 min additions

water adjustments to get it softer

W34/70 with fast lager method

OG 1.046

FG 1.010

EBC 6.88

[Otto Von Blotto]

Looks good to me mate. Not unlike the German lagers I brew sometimes actually.

 

As for mine, it fermented at its usual rate this time. I suspect I didn't oxygenate it either properly or for long enough, but learning is half the fun of it really. I have a better idea of what to do for future batches, not just of this beer but all batches.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

...As for mine' date=' it fermented at its usual rate this time. I suspect I didn't oxygenate it either properly or for long enough, but learning is half the fun of it really. I have a better idea of what to do for future batches, not just of this beer but all batches.[/quote']

Don't be surprised if you see a guy at your next expo or royal show with a very impressive balloon shaping stand.

 

I'll let you off with the first one, but I'm gonna keep giving you shite about the direct oxygen injection ideal until you consistently reduce lag times & produce better flavoured beers by using it. That could take some time.

 

In the meantime, being your forum mate, I'll look for gigs in your general area where you could possibly make some reimbursement money on the purchase of the O² tank.

 

I am open-minded & have read some literature on the subject, but do feel this is overkill in a home brewing environment.

 

I'd have more to say but am suddenly a little short of O².

 

In all honesty, I do hope the venture lives up to your expectations.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm sure everyone goes through some initial "teething problems" with setups like this until they work out how to use it to best effect. It's the same as any other aspect of brewing, it does take time to learn and master. I will be taking an FG sample tomorrow, but I must say the sample I took on Friday last week had a kickarse aroma that I haven't noticed in previous batches. Time will tell I guess.

 

It would be easier with the oxywand that I wanted too, because it's rigid it could be easily moved around the bottom of the FV to bubble the O2 all through the wort... unfortunately a beer/gas line isn't rigid and it's hard to move the stone around in the bottom, if it even moves at all.

 

Anyway, I'll have another crack at it on my next pale ale and see how it goes.

[Beerlust]

Some food for thought quoted from some literature I recently read. . .

 

"Normal gravity wort and high gravity wort with different nitrogen levels were used to examine their effects on the fermentation performance of brewer's yeast and the formation of flavor volatiles. Results showed that both the wort gravity and nitrogen level had significant impacts on the growth rate, viability, flocculation, and gene expression of brewer's yeast and the levels of flavor volatiles. The sugar (glucose, maltose, and maltotriose) consumption rates and net cell growth decreased when high gravity worts were used, while these increased with increasing nitrogen level. Moreover, high gravity resulted in lower expression levels of ATF1, BAP2, BAT1, HSP12, and TDH, whereas the higher nitrogen level caused higher expression levels for these genes. Furthermore, the lower nitrogen level resulted in increases in the levels of higher alcohols and esters at high wort gravity. All these results demonstrated that yeast physiology and flavor balance during beer brewing were significantly affected by the wort gravity and nitrogen level."

 

In a practical sense from what I have observed, I would think the mixing of oxygen through the wort pre-fermentation in a similar way to how I fast carb (mix) CO2 into my beer post-fermentation would work well.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It would work well to do it that way with the oxygen I'd agree. I don't know if my FV seals well enough to be shaken around without spilling some of the wort out through the lid seal area though, plus it's a lot easier on my back to use a diffusion stone

 

I'll get it sorted out, it was never gonna be a perfect run first go. The general consensus appears to be pump it in at a rate that you just see bubbles floating to the surface, rather than it looking like a vigorous boil, so I'll try that next time, and run it longer as well.

[Beerlust]

It would work well to do it that way with the oxygen I'd agree. I don't know if my FV seals well enough to be shaken around without spilling some of the wort out through the lid seal area though' date=' plus it's a lot easier on my back to use a diffusion stone [img']tongue[/img]

I'm hearin' ya & agree.

 

I'll get it sorted out' date=' it was never gonna be a perfect run first go. The general consensus appears to be pump it in at a rate that you just see bubbles floating to the surface, rather than it looking like a vigorous boil, so I'll try that next time, and run it longer as well. [img']cool[/img]

I feel mixing the O² well into the wort is the key. I'm not sure 'rates' really have anything to do with it unless you plan to oxygenate the wort over a period of time like you would CO² through your beer under the same conditions. I admit I'm no scientist, but it appears the mixing of the gas with the solution in both cases to a certain level becomes the relevant factor. With already fermented beer it is about reaching a desired mixed CO² ratio that is suitable for drinking, as I would expect it to be as a desired optimum mixed O² ratio before pitching the yeast. Don't you think?

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, you want about 10-12ppm of O2 as the optimum level. This can be achieved by running pure oxygen through a diffusion stone for a minute or two. The problem with running it too fast is that most of the oxygen shoots to the surface in big bubbles and disappears; if it is done at a slower rate, the bubbles are smaller and get absorbed into the wort more readily, so I'll dial back the pressure on the regulator next time to get a more gentle flow of oxygen. The temperature plays a part the same as it does with carbonating, so a lower temp would be better too.

 

It's hard to see anyway with the foam on top from pouring from the cube even when it is done gently, but I'll get there one way or another

[Beerlust]

Just spit-balling here. . . but could you not run the O² line through the fermenter airlock hole & almost pressurize the FV with O² to force it into solution much like you would with CO² in a keg, & then pour the liquid yeast through a tube via the same airlock hole?

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Well I suppose you could but it's not really necessary if it's done properly the "normal" way. Another option is to pitch the yeast first and then oxygenate the wort immediately after, which also has the effect of mixing in the yeast. Probably doesn't make a lot of difference though.

 

I'll update with my FG and taste test later today too.

[Mark D Pirate]

Looks good to me mate. Not unlike the German lagers I brew sometimes actually.

Kelsey

 

Thanks ' date=' will be putting it down this weekend while i have decent stocks left

 

 

As for mine, it fermented at its usual rate this time. I suspect I didn't oxygenate it either properly or for long enough, but learning is half the fun of it really. I have a better idea of what to do for future batches, not just of this beer but all batches.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

Was reading a bit the other night and they were using several doses of oxygen over hours / days

, just an idea but that may be another option

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think those several doses of oxygen over a few days are more for high OG brews. A 'normal' OG wort only really needs it at pitching time.

 

From what I've read, most commercial breweries have a set up where it's basically a diffusion stone in line on the transfer from the heat exchanger or whatever into the fermenting tank. It pumps oxygen into the wort as it travels into the fermenter. A little difficult to set up at home though.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I just took a first FG sample from my Bo Pils, sitting about 1.011 so may have a point or two more to drop but it's tasting fantastic and good aroma too. I can't detect any diacetyl either. Gonna forego the isinglass this time too I think, since this yeast has become a very good floccer over the generations of re-use and doesn't really need it. Should be able to reduce the lagering time by a few days and get the Citra pale ale fermenting sooner too.

 

I may have mucked up the oxygenation a bit but it's still turned out well even though the fermentation speed didn't really change. Things I'll do differently on the next lager are to put the cube in the fridge the night before pitching day so it comes down lower than bloody 20C, and bubble the oxygen in more slowly and probably for a bit longer too. For ales I'll do my usual routine of chilling the cube for a few hours to drop it to around 20C, and also slower O2 bubbling.

 

I guess it's one of those things that takes a bit of working out to get the best results but I'm looking forward to fine tuning the process over the next few batches.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Necro alert;

 

I thought I'd resurrect this thread briefly, as I have a batch of this in a keg awaiting its turn on tap. Nothing unusual about that, but on this batch I decided to experiment with a 50g flameout addition of Saaz in addition to the existing hop schedule. The FG samples I thought exhibited a slightly more prominent Saaz flavor than the batches previously that didn't contain this addition, so that was pleasing. I'm looking forward to it being on tap soon.

 

There were some points raised about that particular recipe on the other forum by others, which I didn't experience in the tasting. One was because of the mountain of hops in it (390g all up) there might be vegetal flavors in the beer, but none was detected on tasting the FG samples. The other point raised was that the flameout addition of Saaz might present grassy flavors, but again this wasn't the case on tasting.

 

I'll be ordering more Saaz before the week is out, because the next brew day planned will be another pilsner. That batch will be the first batch fermented with 2000 Budvar yeast. The 2001 yeast was still performing excellently after 2 years of re-use and if I didn't want to test out the Budvar yeast before it disappeared from the range, then I would have kept going with it indefnitely. Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing how the recipe turns out with the 2000 as well.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Rowbrew]

Hey Kelsey, sorry to dig up this old thread but i am planning my first Bohemian Pilsner and wanted to ask your opinion on my recipe and procedure

Weyermann Bo Pils Malt, 95.6%

Melanoidin Malt, 2.9%

Acidulated Malt, 1.5%

90 min mash at 64°C

90 min boil

No Chill

25g Saaz FWH 3.7% AA for 20.7 IBU

25g Saaz 10 mins 3.7% AA for 10.1 IBU

25g Saaz Flameout 3.7% AA for 6.2 IBU

WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager

1.041 OG

37 IBU

16.5 litres into FV

Pitch yeast at 10°C, ferment at 10°C for 4 days, ramp up 2.5°C every 12 hours until it reaches 18°C. Leave at 18°C until FG is reached. Then ramp down 2.5°C every 12 hours until it reaches 1°C for cold crash. Leave there for 5 days, then bottle. Warm back up to 18°C for 3 weeks then lager in bottles in the freezing cold Melbourne shed. How does my approach sound to you?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Looks good mate, nice recipe too. The only things I'd probably do differently is mash higher (Bohemian pilsner usually has an FG above 1.010), and give it 6 days before the temp ramp up, checking SG after 5 days as it may be ready to ramp up by then. When I ramp up I just go straight to 18 on the controller and let the fermentation heat bring it up. Usually takes a day and a half anyway. 

Ramp down looks good, I'll be trying something similar on my next lager instead of just dropping it straight to zero. Will be interesting to compare results.

Cheers

Kelsey