Otto Von Blotto Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Hi everyone, So I tried this method on my latest batch, and unfortunately only used a bloody 200mL jar. I've roughly worked out that it has resulted in about 12mL of actual yeast, which is probably somewhere around 30-36 billion cells. According to the yeastcalculator.com site, this amount *should* be enough to build up enough cells for a full batch next time, depending on how big the starter volume is of course. In saying that though, there may not be enough extras to be able to harvest without diminishing the amount that will go into the actual batch too much. I've just ordered a 3000mL erlenmeyer off eBay, because I don't think the 2000mL one is gonna cut it for deliberately making starters too big for a batch in order to harvest yeast from them. I'm also gonna pick up a couple of bigger jars like 500mL size, rather than having to fill up multiple small jars just for one batch. Obviously this was a bit of a learning experience, however the method itself I find to be much easier than rinsing and washing etc. after fermenting a full batch and I would recommend it over that method. There are less items to clean for one thing, obviously the flask is fine from boiling the starter wort in it (if you use that method and don't be scared Phil, the things are designed to be used that way. ), but then I only need to clean and sanitize one jar for the excess starter amount to go into as opposed to boiling a heap of water and then cooling it and tossing the yeast between multiple jars to clean the crap out. From the looks of what's in the jar I have at the moment, it looks to be reasonably clean yeast i.e. not much other rubbish in it. Here is a photo of it: Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Looks good Kelsey, very clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beeblebrox Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Just thinking; seeing as there's the harvesting method for re-using Coopers Commercial yeast from APA or whatever, couldn't you use the same method to harvest the residue from the bottom of your bottles of homebrew? Obviously redundant if using the yeast from the can, but could be worth considering to save expense if using a specialty yeast & wanting to reuse & save some $$. Couldn't you also harvest yeast from the trub when you've finished bottling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well yes I suppose you could, but that's a lot more faffing about. A lot of cats are probably already making starters if they are using specialty yeast, especially liquid strains, and it's a lot simpler to make up a bigger starter, stick it on a stir plate for a day, tip the excess into a jar and stick in the fridge, than it is to reculture yeast from bottles. Obviously if not making starters yet, then reculturing from bottles has merit. Also, the reculturing method from what I can tell is more aimed at getting the yeast ready for pitching into a batch immediately. This harvesting method is more about storing a portion of the yeast for the next batch. The basic timeline is: Make up a bigger starter volume than necessary --> pitch yeast, put on stir plate for 24 hours --> decant excess while still mixed up into jar --> put jar in fridge and forget about it --> pitch actual starter when ready into main batch of beer (I normally crash chill mine and decant most of the "beer" before pitching). Then for the next batch, repeat the cycle using the yeast stored in the jar in the fridge. Every time you do a new batch, you use the "jar yeast", except for those times when a new pack is needed obviously. This allows multiple re-uses from one pack, using an easy method to ensure cleaner yeast. Simply scooping yeast slurry off the bottom of the fermenter is a simpler method, but the yeast is also full of a heap of other rubbish from the process of brewing and fermenting a proper batch of beer hence why the rinsing/washing method exists. If you're happy using yeast containing a bunch of crap from the previous batch of beer then by all means harvest it from the bottom of the FV, but if you want clean yeast without the faffing about of rinsing it, then the harvesting from starter method is the easiest way I can see to go about it. Cheers Kelsey *Edited to include more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Simply scooping yeast slurry off the bottom of the fermenter is a simpler method' date=' but the yeast is also full of a heap of other rubbish from the process of brewing and fermenting a proper batch of beer hence why the rinsing/washing method exists. If you're happy using yeast containing a bunch of crap from the previous batch of beer then by all means harvest it from the bottom of the FV, but if you want clean yeast without the faffing about of rinsing it, then the harvesting from starter method is the easiest way I can see to go about it. [img']cool[/img] +1 Well said. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 The simplest method of all is just dumping a new batch on top of an old yeast cake. This negates the need for cleaning out the FV between batches, and you have a heap of yeast which gets to work in record time usually. Of course, you still get all the rubbish in the yeast, and while I have done this occasionally, it's usually only been when the new batch is similar to the old batch, or it's something like a porter going in after a pale ale. It's probably more suited to AGers who don't have to mix up ingredients in the FV like kits/extracts do. But now that I have been made aware of this harvesting from the starter method, thanks to Ben 10's link in one of the brew day threads, I can have clean yeast for every batch and I probably won't be doing the new-batch-onto-old-cake method much again, if at all. I certainly won't be mucking around with rinsing anymore. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I just had a thought that is relevant to the discussion. There's one downside I can think of for harvesting from starters rather than from the main fermentation. From listening to podcasts on yeast, several commercial brewers that I have heard believe from at least the third generation onwards the yeast perform best as they acclimatise to that brewery's fermentation conditions. They saw this acclimatisation as a significant advantage of reusing yeast. However reusing yeast from a starter rather than from the main fermentation would negate this. They mostly harvested yeast either by top-cropping or dumping from a conical and rinsing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 That's probably a fair point, but on the other hand, using a new packet on every batch also negates that. So in a way, nothing is really being lost by harvesting from a starter in that sense, perhaps in the other sense of the yeast acclimatising to conditions, yes that won't necessarily happen. But then if you rinse after fermentation and then put it into a starter again it would negate it as well, unless the starter is part of the actual batch wort and at the same temp as the main batch will be fermented at. How much it really matters on a home brewing scale though is another thing. Commercial breweries are trying to achieve exactly the same results on every batch of a particular recipe, harvesting yeast post-fermentation probably helps a lot with this for the reason you mentioned (and of course also saves them money on it). They most likely don't make starters anyway, they'd just harvest as much yeast as they need for the batch and rinse it. In a homebrewing situation, that isn't the case necessarily. I think there's less chance of screwing up and getting an infection by harvesting from the starter rather than rinsing post-fermentation simply because there are less vessels to deal with, and to me that outweighs any acclimatisation benefits. Besides, the main reason I harvest yeast is to save money on buying it and that's about it. It's sort of like having a new pack for free each time I make a starter. Others may have differing opinions on that, and that's fine, but I'm happy enough using the starter method. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Hi Kelsey. Just a quick question (or two) about harvesting from a starter. How do you know when it has finished fermenting out the starter to be able to split it? Do you take gravity readings, or is it an assumed thing based on time? Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Hi Kelsey. Just a quick question (or two) about harvesting from a starter. How do you know when it has finished fermenting out the starter to be able to split it? Do you take gravity readings' date=' or is it an assumed thing based on time? Cheers, Lusty.[/quote'] I don't really worry too much about whether it's fully fermented or not, since it's going into the fridge anyway. To prevent potential explosions, I only put the lid on loosely until the jar has completely chilled, then it gets tightened. I'd probably loosen it slightly when taking it out again to get to room temp for the next use, just in case it does start fermenting a bit again. On the Brulosophy article it says to leave on the stir plate for 24 hours, then decant the excess into the jar. I leave mine on the stir plate for 24 hours and then turn it off. I wait until the next day, then turn the stir plate back on for about half an hour to mix it all up again and THEN decant into the jar. Only real reason being, I generally pitch the yeast into the starter right before I go to bed, so that I know when I go to bed the next night, it's time to turn the stir plate off. I leave the harvesting until the next day so that I can be around while the jar chills down so I can tighten the lid as soon as it chills. I figure the longer it's left loose, the more chance there is of infections getting in. This extended period before harvesting probably does allow for more fermentation to occur though. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Just got back from Overflow with 3 pint sized (proper 570mL) jars. They do have handles but I think they will be better than the 200mL bottles. My 3000mL flask will be here in time for the next batch, so the plan is to make up a 3L starter and use that 12mL of yeast in it, then decant off the pint. Hopefully this will see a fair bit more yeast being harvested. Putting the numbers through the yeastcalc calculator, a 3 litre starter with 30 billion cells to begin with should net 450 billion by the end of it, using the Kai Troester stir plate setting. Using Jamil's stir plate setting it only gives 187 billion. That's a huge difference, and it seems from reading about it that Kai's one is more accurate. Of course, there will always be those who think one or the other is the more correct one. These numbers are based on that the yeast was harvested on Sunday, but it doesn't really drop by much if the date is pushed out to a month ago, which is probably about the time I'll be doing the next batch. It also seems that the viability estimates on these calculators are lower than the actual viability from refrigerated yeast. All in all though when I start harvesting with the bigger jars it won't be so much of an issue anyway because there will be more yeast to start off with. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger1525228935 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I have been harvesting from starters for a little while now. I do have a question about starters; should they be kept at the same temperature as the desired fermentation temperature while they are on the stir plate, or is it ok to just leave them at room temp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Like almost everything in brewing, there are probably conflicting opinions on that too. Personally, I don't bother with temperature control for yeast starters for two reasons. Firstly, the aim of a starter isn't directly to produce great tasting beer, its purpose is to grow enough healthy yeast cells to complete a fermentation of a full batch. Secondly, it would be way too much of a pain in the arse to even bother. I suppose they'd probably ferment quicker as well at room temp which is *generally* warmer than fermenting temps. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I also use the method of crash chilling my starters for a couple of days before I pitch the yeast, so that I can decant nearly all the spent "beer" off the yeast, rather than tipping it into the proper batch and potentially affecting its flavour. It's for this reason also that I don't bother with temp control because the fermented "beer" is only tipped down the sink anyway. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiphile Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 +1 OtBlot. I like doing it at room temp too (unless it's a really hot day, of course). On average, in summer with ale yeasts, I just make sure it's under 25C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Glad this has worked out Otto, I will be using this method when I get around to buying some meth lab equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 it does have that appearance with all the flasks and test tubes and shit. Anyway, yeah just a matter of ironing out some "bugs in the system" regarding capacities of the flask and the jars, but got that sorted now for all future batches. I could have used my 5 litre flask but it's a bit cumbersome. I'll reserve that one for making lager yeast starters, which is about the only reason I actually bought it in the first place. I also used to use it to boil the water for rinsing yeast but well... Overall though, it's a simple method of getting multiple uses out of a single yeast packet, which seems to be the major reason home brewers harvest their yeast, and it gives clean yeast each time without the need for rinsing, or really doing anything outside normal practices for making yeast starters other than making the starter volume bigger to account for the pint or so that is taken for storage. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Eh!L Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I like to store my harvested yeast in old WLP vials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 How big are those vials? I don't have any of those vials as I've never used any WLP yeasts, but let's say I do for this. Could I harvest a pint jar of the starter as per the above method, let it settle out, decant off most of the beer liquid, stir it all up again and then transfer to one (or however many needed) of those vials for storage? I'm guessing that's the method used, or at least something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiphile Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The net volume WL ship in each vial is 35 mls. If it's a concentrated slurry, I would think one would be enough for each brew if you put it on a stir plate prior to the next pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Eh!L Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 How big are those vials? I don't have any of those vials as I've never used any WLP yeasts' date=' but let's say I do for this. Could I harvest a pint jar of the starter as per the above method, let it settle out, decant off most of the beer liquid, stir it all up again and then transfer to one (or however many needed) of those vials for storage? I'm guessing that's the method used, or at least something like that.[/quote'] The vials are 25-30mL. I have probably have 10mL of yeast in each. The method you describe above is pretty much what I do. When rinsing I fill 4 500 mL jars and chill to settle out the yeast. I then decant almost all the liquid off the cake (just enough to stir up the cake). I can get 1 500mL jar into 1 vial. I eventually dacant the liquid again and top up with distilled water for longer storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Fair enough then. I doubt I'll do that since I don't have any vials, and most likely each jar I harvest will be used on the following batch, so there won't really be any long term storage going on. However, it's good to know anyways in case I do grab some vials down the track some time. They would certainly take up less space than a 570mL jar, even though I'll likely only have the one jar in the fridge at any one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 Hey everyone, Just a little update on this newly discovered kickarse procedure. I harvested my 500mL starter into a jar today, which is now sitting in the fridge to settle all the yeast out. Here's a photo of it on the stir plate (I hate how these phone cameras make the flasks look skinny and elongated compared to what they really look like ) After I took this picture, I simply picked up the flask and swirled it a bit more, and filled this here jar with the mixture: And that's literally all there is to it. Whack in the fridge until it's time to make the next starter. Once it's all settled out, I'll take it out and grab another identical jar and fill it with water up to the height of where the yeast is at, then tip the water into a measuring container, most likely my hydrometer test tube, as it is marked up to 100mL in 1mL increments. This should give me a more accurate measurement of how many mL of yeast I have, rather than trying to guess the inside diameter of the jar, to use the pi r squared calculation. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 I've decided to make up my 2.5 L starter tonight, this is a photo of the harvested jar of yeast. I didn't get as much as I'd hoped for but it should still be enough to grow enough for fermenting my next batch which will go into the FV during next week when the starter is ready. Filling an identical jar up to the height of the yeast apparently only netted 20mL which seems a bit low. Working it out mathematically gave around 32mL, so I'm basically just going in the middle at 25-26mL and working off that. Probably around 65-75 billion cells to start with netting ~400 billion cells from a 2.5L starter, of which I'll harvest 500-550mL into the jar again. It may help to get some different jars with more of a flat bottom and sharper corners on the inside edges though. Might have to bite the bullet and get that 24 pack of Ball Mason jars after all.. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Turns out those mason jars came in 12 packs, rather than 24 packs. I picked up a pack of them today, except I got quart size ones to be able to harvest more yeast. These hold about 800-900mL. I've decided to make an 800mL starter with a previously harvested jar of US-05, to fill one of these jars with. I might use some of the other ones to keep my brewing salts in when I get them. The salts will likely only be used with distilled water to mimic the water profile of Pilsen when I brew pilsners as the tap water itself seems to be fine for pale ales and such that I also majorly favour drinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Hi guys. I'm in the early stages of using Otto Man's yeast harvesting method. I'm in the process of my second harvest right now. For the first one, last week I prepped some CCA yeast I had stored from a rinse from trub off a previous brew. I made a 2 litre starter & pitched the CCA yeast into it. I like to allow sufficient time for the starter to fully ferment out before swirling the contents to re-suspend the yeast & drawing off my 500ml sample to be stored for re-use. So as I'm not monitoring & measuring gravity, I allow a minimum of 2-3 days for that to occur. The amount of yeast I ended up with in the 500ml jar, I could visually see was much less than what I gain from rinsing yeast directly out of the fermenter post primary fermentation. As such I can now understand the need for stepping this amount up prior to pitching it into a full brew wort. Onto current events... Late yesterday evening I activated my Kolsch yeast smack pack in readiness for a brew I have planned Sunday. At the same time, I made a 2 litre starter by boiling the water & adding the LDM to it. Gave this a good mix & left it to cool overnight so that it would be at a suitable ambient temperature come morning to add the liquid yeast in the smack pack to. This morning before I went to work, I aerated the starter & added the yeast smack pack to it, & left for work. When I returned home this evening, a nice foam was atop the starter. I'll continue to give the starter a shake & swirl at intervals over the next few days to make sure it fully ferments out by mid Sunday. Before pitching, I'll re-suspend the yeast & draw off 500mls for storage, the rest will go into my Kolsch brew. Here's hoping @ 15°C, I have enough yeast cells to ferment out that 1.044 OG brew. I'll pitch a little higher & allow 12-24 hours before lowering to 15°C. I'll monitor signs of fermentation activity & lower it based on that. Having never used this yeast before, I really have no idea of when to expect activity, but I've heard it's pretty fast starting. Time will tell. Sorry for the long post, I just thought some might take interest in the method. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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