Yeast Harvesting from Starter

[Otto Von Blotto]

Next starter will be for some 1469 for my red ale which is due in the FV next. Probably make it up on Monday. Hopefully this one doesn't escape the flask and make a mess of everything like the last one did

From what I've read & seen about 1469' date=' there is no such thing as "hope". [img']lol[/img]

 

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

 

The stupid part about it also is that that starter went mental, then I pitched it into the main batch and was lucky to see 10mm of krausen on it. It fermented out fine and the beer tastes excellent, but the visual activity was hardly anything compared to when it was in the flask on the stir plate. Weird yeast

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Just boiled up a fresh starter wort for my porter which I'm planning to pitch on Saturday. It's currently cooling on the stove until tomorrow morning when it will be pitched with some harvested 1469 yeast. Not particularly exciting but I thought I'd document the full process in pictures to make it a bit easier to understand what the hell it is that I actually do.

 

This starter is 2.4L in size; I'll steal 800mL of it later on, which should contain about 130 billion cells, leaving me with approx. 260 billion cells to pitch into the batch. The calculator suggests I need 243 billion (22L OG 1.060), but I always like to go over a bit just to be sure.

 

I used my 5L flask for this one for two reasons. The first reason was because this shitty malt extract I have tends to like to foam up all over the place when it boils, so I have more room and therefore time to react to it in this flask. The second reason is that the 1469 yeast seems to enjoy doing similar things when it ferments these starters, so I've given it plenty of headspace .

 

So, the first pic is simply the starter wort simmering away on the stove for a minute or two with its foil cover on top, after being boiled uncovered for a short while, intermittently due to the stupid foaming. I'll grab another one tomorrow when it's on the stirrer.

 

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

The yeast has been pitched into the starter and it is now sitting on the stirrer getting dizzy. These pictures show the jar of harvested yeast, before and after decanting and mixing, and the starter on the stirrer. I expect there will be a krausen formed in a few hours time. This part of the process is quite simple; I took the yeast from the fridge, tipped out most of the "beer" on top, swirled up the remainder and pitched it into the flask which was then put onto the stirrer. It will be stirred until about lunchtime tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

This photo was taken about 8 hours ago showing the krausen on top of the starter, as well as the condensation on the inside of the flask. It was still stirring at this stage, although I have turned it off now and will let it sit there until Friday morning when I'll turn it back on again to stir it up for harvesting. As you can see, the colour has changed since it was first pitched with the growth in yeast cells. I'm glad it didn't turn into a volcano this time, although I wonder if it would have if I'd used the smaller flask.

 

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Most of the yeast appears to have dropped out of this starter now, but it won't be stirred up again for harvesting until Friday morning, and then harvested at some point in the middle of the day after the XXXX batch is kegged.

 

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

So, today was harvesting day for the yeast. This morning when I got up I switched the stir plate back on again to mix all the yeast back into suspension for a few hours ready for decanting a portion into the mason jar for storage. It looked rather yuck at that point,

 

Fast forward about 6 hours, it's mixed up nicely and it's time to harvest into the pre-cleaned and sanitised jar.

 

This part is as simple as you could get, simply take the flask off the stir plate, momentarily remove the foil covering and swirl it around a bit more vigorously for about 10 seconds to really mix it up, then pour into the jar to about 800mL. Lid on jar and foil back on flask and it's done. The jar goes into the fridge for storage and the flask goes into either the brew fridge or kegerator if there's room, to crash chill for a day or two before pitching into the batch.

 

Next time I use this strain of yeast, the process will be repeated using the saved yeast in the jar. On this occasion I've harvested approx. 130 billion cells, so that will be my starting amount along with today's date as the "manufacture" date when I use the calculator to work out the starter size next time. They're usually pretty similar sizes each time though.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

 

[James Lao]

Brilliant thread!

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Even better with the pictures haha !!!!

 

Cheers

 

James

[Otto Von Blotto]

No problem mate, glad it was of some use! Yeah, I thought pictures would make it a little bit easier to explain the process properly than just words . It's pretty simple though, I reckon the most difficult part is working out the size of the starter, which I covered on page 3 in the first post on the page I think. It's pretty easy once you get used to it though.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Since I mentioned it in one of the later posts on the last page here, I figured I'd update on it here too.

 

The crappy malt extract, and when I say crappy I mean because of the way it behaves, is on its last bag now. Last time I was at Craftbrewer I thought I'd check out their range of dry malt, and to my happiness I found that they stock the same extract I used to get from the local shop that I use in my yeast starters (or at least it looks the same), before they started stocking this other rubbish. I'll be using one of these bags first before I go back to the crappy stuff, just to make sure it is better behaved.

 

The problem with the crappy extract is that it's impossible to dissolve it because it's so bloody fine almost like talcum powder, it foams up all over the place when it is boiled creating a huge mess if not watched like a hawk, and creating a huge f'n pain in the arse when it is watched like a hawk, constantly turning the stove on and off to try to get some semblance of a boil happening with it. It also produces big grey strands of what I'm assuming is hot break given the way it behaves so similarly to the full volume boils I do when I brew a batch, so whoever made the extract did a pretty shithouse job of removing that too!

 

The stuff I used to get from the local shop was a coarser powder. It easily dissolved in water allowing for effortless mixing, and when it was boiled it pretty much just boiled like water. There was a tad extra foaming compared to water but it never threatened to escape the flask, so I could give it a proper rolling boil for 5-10 minutes, rather than faffing around for 30-40 minutes continually turning the stove on and off. It also never produced those grey strands of whatever when it came to a boil.

 

I don't know who makes the fine powder shit that the local brew shop now sells. It probably works perfectly well in a batch of beer other than not dissolving very well, but for making yeast starters where boiling is required, perhaps even doing hop boils too, it's utterly hopeless. As long as CB stocks what looks to be the good stuff I won't be buying that other crap ever again.

 

I'll update again when I make the next starter with the coarser stuff whether it behaves normally like it used to or whether it's similar to the crap I've been using the last year or so.

 

/endrant

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[joolbag]

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

Hey Kelsey,

 

Do you have a photo of your mason jar after yeast has been stored? I'm curious as to how much yeast floccs out and how much clear "beer" sits on top in your jars compared to mine.

 

I use the quart jars (same as you I think) and my lager starter that I harvested is a thick yeast layer probably 11 or 12mm thick at the bottom of the jar.

[mattyh77]

So I am going to get started into yeast harvesting thingy.

 

A couple of question

 

1. If you were only to get 1 size flask, what would it be a 3L or 5L. Looking at the yeast calcs, most starters ( I would use) need to be about 2L in size, so is 1L of headspace enough? Should I just go straight for a 5L?

 

2. If you dont have a strater to begin with, do you just follow the guide (awesome guide too) and pitch either the dry or liquid yeast?

 

3. Also, Kelsey, whats your red ale recipie you have mentioned previously :-)

[Rowbrew]

I have also recently tried this harvesting from a starter method, but my procedure was a little different. First off i used a 3 litre juice bottle for a 2.5 litre starter. Used 250g of LDM in it but i didn't boil it. I figured that i because i dont usually boil all my extract when making a beer, i didn't really think it was an issue. Because it was in the bottle i used the shaking method to keep the yeast in suspension. This seemed to work fine. Left it to ferment for about 4 days then i mixed it all up, tipped some in a 500ml glass jar/canister with a clip type lid, then put both in the fridge where the 500ml one will stay for the next starter and i used the one in the juice bottle for an English Bitter. I decanted the beer off first. It took off like a rocket and is going strong. I just hope not boiling it hasn't done it any harm. I used US-05 by the way

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hey Kelsey' date='

 

Do you have a photo of your mason jar after yeast has been stored? I'm curious as to how much yeast floccs out and how much clear "beer" sits on top in your jars compared to mine.

 

I use the quart jars (same as you I think) and my lager starter that I harvested is a thick yeast layer probably 11 or 12mm thick at the bottom of the jar.[/quote']Hey mate, yeah there is a photo of the jar used in that starter on the previous page in post 78. I took a photo before and after it was decanted and stirred up for pitching into the flask .

 

Hey Matty,

 

The size of the flasks you buy depends on whether or not you plan to brew any lagers or really high gravity beers that need bigger starters for the yeast they need. If you plan to brew lagers et. al. then go straight for the 5L because it can be used for all batches, but if you only want to brew ales or 'standard' gravity and size batches, the 3L should be fine.

 

If I understand the second question properly, without making a starter you simply pitch the yeast straight into the batch. Re-hydrate the dry yeast first though.

 

The red ale recipe is here. I'm brewing another batch on Friday actually! A couple of points to note with that recipe, I don't use US-05 anymore in it, the yeast now used is Wyeast 1469. It works better to bring out the maltiness while still keeping it balanced with a little citrus from the hops. Also, the EBC rating is wrong due to the EBC of the black patent being too light in Beersmith for the brand I use. It has since been changed to what it really is, so the EBC of the beer is around 33-34 rather than the 27.8 or whatever it is quoted there.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

[Rowbrew]

So i just took a hydrometer reading of the English Bitter and its sitting at 1.016 from 1.042. I did not notice any off aromas or tastes in the sample, so i am pretty relieved about that. Next time though i will be using a 3 litre erlenmeyer flask on a homemade stirplate. Im just waiting on some magnets and a stir bar off ebay.

[Morrie]

 

 

I don't know who makes the fine powder shit that the local brew shop now sells. It probably works perfectly well in a batch of beer other than not dissolving very well' date=' but for making yeast starters where boiling is required, perhaps even doing hop boils too, it's utterly hopeless. As long as CB stocks what looks to be the good stuff I won't be buying that other crap ever again.

[/quote']

 

Kelsey - is this the malt powder you buy from CB? https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1001

 

I've been using Coopers LDM powder and it behaves the same as the shit stuff that you've had. ie; boils over at the drop of a hat and throws all this black crap through the boil. I'll have to get some of that malt from CB in my next order.

[joolbag]

Thanks Kelsey. Post #78 cleared it up for me. Mine looks exactly the same.so I'm doing something right!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Kelsey - is this the malt powder you buy from CB? https://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1001

 

I've been using Coopers LDM powder and it behaves the same as the shit stuff that you've had. ie; boils over at the drop of a hat and throws all this black crap through the boil. I'll have to get some of that malt from CB in my next order.

I guess it must be mate' date=' I just picked up what was on the shelf there and immediately noticed it was coarser and looked exactly like the extract I used to get that behaved itself, and didn't throw black/grey rubbish all through the wort.

 

Rowbrew, with regards to boiling the starter wort, I use it as a way of sanitising the flask since these flasks can be boiled on a gas stove. This way I don't have to bother spraying anything with Starsan. Obviously not practical with a juice bottle [img']lol[/img] but with flasks I find it easier. I even "no-chill" the starter wort by leaving it sit on the stove until it drops to room temp, and then the yeast is pitched.

 

Good stuff Jools! I notice if mine sit in the fridge for an extended period that the layer tends to become smaller. I guess the yeast are just compacting more over time.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hey guys,

As promised, here is the update from trying the other malt extract I bought from Craftbrewer. In one word: SUCCESS!

 

This stuff behaves the same as the stuff I used to get. I made up a 2L starter last night in my 3L Erlenmeyer flask. The 200g of DME was dissolved in about 900mL of water in a measuring jug and with a half a minute of stirring was pretty well all dissolved. There certainly were no lumps. The little bit that stuck to the bottom was dissolved in the second lot of water. First test passed.

 

Once the flask was topped up to 2L (or a bit more to account for boil off), it was placed on the stove and the gas turned on. It took a short while but once it came to the boil it was well behaved. It did foam up about half way between the top of the wort and the top of the flask but this quickly subsided and it just sat there boiling like water. There were no big black/grey strands of shit floating around in it either.

 

I still have a 1kg bag of the other rubbish, but haven't decided what to do with it yet. I'll definitely be getting my starter DME from Craftbrewer from now on though!

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm about to go and mix up a starter wort for the 2000 Budvar yeast, but this time it will be a two step starter. The smack pack is about 3 months old, so not enough cells available to go straight to a big starter if I want to keep the yeast as healthy as possible.

 

The first step will be 1 litre, which should net around 180 billion cells from the 45 billion starting count. Once that's fermented out I'll crash it overnight in the brew fridge, then make up a 3L wort in the big flask, and pitch the yeast into it. That should net just over 600 billion cells of which I'll be harvesting about 160 leaving me with about 440-450bn for the batch, which needs about 410bn.

 

I like how the yeast calculator I use gives the inoculation rate as well as the optimum range that it should sit in, because in situations like this it makes it easier to treat the yeast properly. Most of the time I don't have to bother doing stepped starters but when I do it's certainly handy having 2 or 3 different sized flasks on hand.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[joolbag]

Otto, a stepped starter is what I probably should have done.

 

I was using the yeast calculator and for my next brew (an IPA) I need 238 bn cells. The yeast is a pack of MJ's New World Strong Ale.

 

I wanted to build it up to 338bn cells so I could save 100bn and harvest from the starter. Using a stirplate this would be easy, but according to intermittent shaking, I couldn't get to the right cell count.

 

A step up would have done it, but I don't have the time as I am brewing and pitching on my day off. Wednesday.

 

Oh well, I'll just harvest the slurry and use it in the next IPA. Shouldn't matter because all of the planned brews are similarly hopped.

 

Might need to look at getting a stirplate now! It never ends!

[Otto Von Blotto]

I could have easily gotten the right cell count with a big enough starter in the 5L flask by itself but the inoculation rate would have been about 10 or 12 million cells per mL of wort. In order to keep the inoculation rate between the recommended 25 and 100 million cells per mL, it had to be done in a 1L starter first then a 3L one. Normally with my harvested yeast I don't need to do this because there's still enough in the jar by the time I get to use it again that the inoculation rate is either in the range or only a small amount below it (like 22 or 23) which I don't worry about, but I'm not going as low as 10 or 12.

[Otto Von Blotto]

One of my friends was selling her microscope cheap, so I decided to pick it up and I'll be ordering some slides, covers and methylene blue to do a bit of staining to get a better idea of the viability of the yeast I'm using. It's not perfect of course but it'll be fun to look at anyway. Rather than an eyepiece it has a LCD screen for viewing the specimens, which can also take pictures so I'll be able to share some of them whenever I do one. I'll try it out on the next starter as the stuff should be here by then.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Titan8]

Interesting, you would expect them to be the same. Not done any havesting until my last brew which i will use on a KK english bitter when home this weekend. Would however be interested to hear other experiences regarding longevity of harvested yeasts. As my brewing schedule is not so good right now. My next harvest might be a couple of months old before i repitch so will update here. Btw its the danstar Nottingham.

[Otto Von Blotto]

After it's grown in the starter it'd be pretty much full viability so I'm not gonna worry too much about looking at a sample of that, although it would be interesting as well, but I should be able to get a couple of drops out of the jar once I tip it into the flask to have a look at what it is after being stored in the fridge for a period of time. The next one I'll be using is 1469 which was harvested back on the 20th of February, so it'll be about 4 months old by the time I make the starter wort for it. I should be able to get an approximate figure on the viability with the staining method at least.

[Morrie]

Hey guys' date='

As promised, here is the update from trying the other malt extract I bought from Craftbrewer. In one word: SUCCESS!

 

This stuff behaves the same as the stuff I used to get. I made up a 2L starter last night in my 3L Erlenmeyer flask. The 200g of DME was dissolved in about 900mL of water in a measuring jug and with a half a minute of stirring was pretty well all dissolved. There certainly were no lumps. The little bit that stuck to the bottom was dissolved in the second lot of water. First test passed.

 

Once the flask was topped up to 2L (or a bit more to account for boil off), it was placed on the stove and the gas turned on. It took a short while but once it came to the boil it was well behaved. It did foam up about half way between the top of the wort and the top of the flask but this quickly subsided and it just sat there boiling like water. There were no big black/grey strands of shit floating around in it either.

 

I still have a 1kg bag of the other rubbish, but haven't decided what to do with it yet. I'll definitely be getting my starter DME from Craftbrewer from now on though!

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey[/quote']

 

Kelsey - I somehow missed your above post but have picked it up now. Thanks, I'll get some malt powder from CB when I do my next online order and hopefully no more boil overs and grey stuff.