Yeast Harvesting from Starter

[porschemad911]

The amount of yeast I ended up with in the 500ml jar' date=' I could visually see was much less than what I gain from rinsing yeast directly out of the fermenter post primary fermentation. As such I can now understand the need for stepping this amount up prior to pitching it into a full brew wort.[/quote']

Thanks for sharing your experience. I found that after collecting 500ml of rinsed trub, my next (10 litre) batch took a couple of days to develop a krausen. I would say 36 hours maybe? So I can see how this amount of collected yeast would really struggle with a larger batch.

 

I (like Kelsey) bought some 1 litre jars (I only bought 3 not 12 though) and (unlike Kelsey) used these for rinsing trub. With the 1 litre of rinsed trub that I ended up with, after decanting off the beer and pitching, I got a nice krausen after 18 hours in an 11 litre batch. I think that's just about the amount of lag time I am after for multiplication and nice ester production (especially in an ESB). Bottling Wednesday and the gravity sample I took this morning tastes sensational!

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Sounds like it's all going as it should mate, good to hear! I daresay you'll have enough cells there, for a 1044 wort I'm guessing it'd need about 200 billion cells, given the lower ferment temp and I'm guessing 21 litre size batch? It wouldn't be that high if it was a normal ale ferment temp. You should be able to get that many cells from the 1.5 litres of the starter that is left over.

 

For comparison, my usual 25 litre batches of 1045 wort need around the 200-210 billion cells for ale yeast, according to the calculator anyway.

 

That's the thing with this method; you'll never harvest enough yeast from the starter to directly pitch into a batch, unless you actually harvested the WHOLE starter. I believe using a stir plate will get more growth than simply shaking it intermittently, but if you don't have one it's not a huge problem. The yeast that is present in a 500mL jar needs to go into a starter each time, which of course you can harvest more from for the next starter and obviously as we know this process repeats each time.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

Hi Kelsey & guys.

 

I was just wondering of those that use a method like this or even just readily make starters using LDM from stored yeast, do you personally pour off the fermented beer from the starter & only add the yeast into your main brew wort, or do you pour the whole yeast/fermented LDM mix into your brew?

 

The reason I ask is that I don't monitor or control the temperature of my starter. If anything, it is certainly at an elevated temperature I would never normally ferment my main brew wort at.

 

Just curious on what others do.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I stick the starter in my brewing fridge for a day or two to encourage the yeast to drop, then decant most of the "beer" off it, leaving a small amount in order to stir up the yeast cake, prior to pitching into the main batch.

 

I partly do this due to the elevated temps of the starters, but also because I don't want the unhopped wort/beer whatever potentially affecting the flavour of the main batch, especially in lagers where bigger starters are used.

[Beerlust]

That is exactly what I thought you or someone else would say Kelsey, & for the reasons you gave.

 

Thus far I have not been pouring off the fermented beer in the starter. I basically swirl & pour the 1½ litres of fermented LDM+yeast into my main brew wort. I'm an extract brewer anyway so I didn't think it would hurt. Possible bad practice on my part.

 

How much can 1½ litres of higher temp fermented beer affect flavour in an additional 20+ litres of wort fermented at a considerably lower temperature?

 

I admit I don't know. I hope PB2 spots this post, as I could really use some facts on this one.

 

I'm certainly still interested in all thoughts on this one though.

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I doubt being an extract brewer would make any difference as to whether the starter wort/beer/yeast mixture has a noticeable effect on the flavour or not. You're still throwing 1.5 litres of it into a batch of wort, regardless of whether it was made from extract or mashing grains. I wouldn't necessarily call it bad practice though.

 

Whether it actually does have any noticeable effect on the flavour is another thing though. I really couldn't say either - but it's probably something that depends on the style of beer as well. I wasn't about to throw 3 litres of unhopped starter beer into my pilsner when I pitched it a couple of weeks back, as it would have diluted the hoppiness and probably to a noticeable effect. But 1.5 litres in a hopped up pale ale or IPA or heavy stout, may not be all that noticeable at all. I don't know if the temperature would be too much to worry about, for me it's more the dilution of hop flavours due to the added amount of unhopped beer.

 

For me it's just easier to prevent it in the first place by crashing and decanting the starter prior to pitching. The other option of course is to make the starter out of some of the actual wort from the batch and then pitch it while it is most active. But that's probably not practical for extract brewing where you're mixing up the recipe and pitching the yeast into it on the same day. The starter needs to be prepared a few days prior. Also it's not ideal for the harvesting procedure as the wort is hopped as well as potentially being a higher gravity than is ideal for growing yeast in starters.

 

The best thing about that harvesting procedure apart from its simplicity is that the harvested yeast is always going into the same unhopped lowish SG wort, so it is likely to be less stressed than a yeast that has fermented a proper batch of beer.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Canadian Eh!L]

I sometimes crash the starter and decant like Otto while other times pour in the whe starter. It usually comes down to timing for me. I make 40L batches that I usually pitch to different strains. I start one earlier in the week and when it's done I transfer to a pickle jar. This is the one I crash and decant. The second starter is usually still on the stir plate and very acts when I'm ready to pitch it. This one I dump the whole lot in to the FV. I haven't notice any real difference between the two practices. I must admit I haven't paid a lot of attention to this detail.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think I've deciphered what you were getting at there...

 

I know you brew 40 litre batches, but you split them between two FVs, say 20 litres in each and then pitch a different yeast strain into each one?

 

In that case I can understand why some get decanted and others not. You'd need two stir plates to crash and decant both starters. What might be a good experiment to see if there is any noticeable effect would be to make the two starters days apart like you described, but use the same yeast strain in both. This way both batches are exactly the same except for one being pitched with a decanted starter and the other having the whole box and dice thrown into it.

 

I suppose it depends on the size of the starter as well how much effect it would have.

 

I only put on one 25 litre batch at a time, so I only have one starter. In the days leading up to pitching the yeast into the batch, the brewing fridge is not being used apart from to store about a carton's worth of stubbies at a time in (easier than moving all the shit from in front of the main storage cupboard a million times just to get a few bottles out at a time). Very handy at crash chilling time - chills down all the beers too! Anyway, a day or two before pitching I turn on the STC which is usually still set to 0C from CCing the previous batch, change the variance to about 2-3C and stick the starter in there.

 

I am a bit apprehensive I suppose of throwing 2 to 4 litres of unhopped wort/beer into my main batch, that's at least 10% of the volume of it - I don't want 27 to 29 litres in a 30 litre FV! In my mind, this percentage of unhopped wort/beer would also have a noticeable effect on the finished beer, after it finished making a mess of my brewing fridge. All in all it is something I prefer to do mainly for that reason, however having the convenience of using my brew fridge for it certainly helps as well.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

[Canadian Eh!L]

Yeah, sorry about the poor grammar I'm typing on my smart phone these day and sometimes it's not very forgiving.

 

I have a Honey Brown Porter that I'm drinking now. Both batches are fermented with wlp 028 using this method but I have no idea which one I decanted or not.

I'll have to be more aware next time.

 

I think there is merit to both methods. The decanting method eliminates unwanted flavours of an oxidized, Unhopped wort. On the other hand there is also some benifit to pitching a very active starter as it kicks off so well and can only be good for the brew.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, they aren't the greatest sometimes, all good!

 

Being a honey brown porter probably helps mask any potential flavour effects from a full volume starter too. It sounds like a pretty rich flavoured style, as opposed to a clean, light lager in which it would likely be more noticed, partly due to the style flavour and partly due to the larger starter volume needed for lagers.

 

I have nothing against pitching the full starter volume, and I can absolutely see the advantage of it being active when pitched, over being crashed and decanted first. I wouldn't be concerned with oxygen as it is going in pre-fermentation really, which is when you want the oxygen in the wort, so it would only be used up by the yeast anyway. I can only see a positive in that regard. Also with it being active, the starter isn't fully fermented either.

 

In my situation it is more practical to decant the starter, the major reason being that pitching the whole thing would leave the fermenter too full. A minor part is the harvesting, it likely works best when the yeast has basically finished fermenting in the starter, at that point you can be sure all the multiplying has finished and you're getting the most cells you can.

 

However, if I was on the last use of a particular yeast and decided to make its starter with a portion of wort from the actual batch of beer then I would pitch the whole lot, as it's the same as the main batch, and also being a part of that, it wouldn't over fill the fermenter either.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

[Beerlust]

In my situation it is more practical to decant the starter' date=' the major reason being that pitching the whole thing would leave the fermenter too full.[/quote']

I know it's not really in the spirit of All Grain brewing, but for sheer convenience you could certainly factor in the amount of LDM used in the starter into your overall recipe construction so that you can pitch it as an inclusive part of the recipe at the volume you wish to brew it at.

 

I understand my situation is different, but whatever LDM I use as part of my starter, is included in my recipe. For example if I use 200gms of LDM in a 2 litre starter, & my recipe calls for 500gms of LDM total, then I'll only mix in 300gms of LDM directly into my fermenter or boil on brew day.

 

Anyways, surely you no-chillers could pour off some of the wort from the stored cube & use that for your starter?

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I could do that, but then the cube wouldn't be completely full which is something I prefer to avoid. It likely wouldn't cause any issues, but the risk or infection is probably a little bit higher than when the cube is completely filled. I use 25 litre cubes, which probably hold about 27 litres in reality, but give me 25 litres in the FV. I really can't be arsed getting 20 litre cubes simply to be able to pitch full volume starters by compensating for them in the recipe design.

 

I also could use some of the actual batch wort for the starter but with harvesting from it I prefer unhopped lower SG wort than my beers are as the yeast are arguably less stressed. I like that the harvested yeast is always put through the same conditions, rather than various different hopped and different gravity worts each time. I also don't want to be harvesting active yeast into a jar before it has done its thing in the starter. Opening the cube and exposing the wort to outside air a day or two before pitching yeast into it invites a good chance of infection too. There is a tiny bit of air in the cube anyway, but it would be as clean and sterile as the rest of the insides given the temperature the wort originally goes into it at. Outside air is not.

 

You didn't mention using the starter wort as part of the whole recipe before ...which obviously negates any influence on flavors from it being unhopped when you are pitching the whole thing into the batch, so no, I see no problems with that procedure at all.

 

Crashing and decanting is a valid practice and not disadvantageous IMO; I still don't have long lag times doing this, and it suits my situation and procedures better than pitching the whole starter would, for the reasons outlined above. Also, my main reasons for making starters at all are to ensure a healthy cell count and to harvest for re-use, neither of whose effectiveness depends on whether it is decanted or the whole volume pitched while active.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Bumping this thread for Morrie.

 

Basically what I do is calculate how big I need to make the starter for the main batch, then make it about a litre bigger than that, to account for the portion that will be harvested.

[Morrie]

Thanks Kelsey - I'll take a heap of notes out of here and paste into a word.doc.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'll be kegging my stout on Saturday, which means on Monday my lager brewed with home grown hops is going into the FV. I decided to simply use the same 2001 yeast I've been using all along rather than go buy something else. I made up a starter wort of 3.5L on Wednesday. That night I took the saved jar out of the fridge - which has been in there for 3 months - decanted most of the 'beer', mixed it up and cold pitched it into the room temp wort. By the morning there was a small krausen ring on it, and by last night the entire top was covered in foam, and there is also visibly a lot more yeast in there now than there was.

 

Funny how this yeast managed to survive 3 months and still work perfectly well, when a stored jar of US-05 couldn't even make it to two months before it seemingly died and went to yeast heaven. I wonder if some store better than others?

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Otto Von Blotto]

Just pitched some harvested Wy2001 into a 3.6 litre starter which is now on the stir plate set at 22C. This info is mainly for joolbag following on from last night's discussion but I imagine it would be useful for anyone looking into this method.

 

Just a bit of a post on how I work out my starter sizes really. I don't actually know the OG of the batch yet, because it hasn't been brewed, so I'm just going off an estimate of 1.050 to be on the safe side, and 25 litre size as is intended.

 

YeastCalc says I need 464 billion cells to pitch into this batch. I went with an initial cell count of 150 billion cells and manufacture (harvest) date of 14th May which it was. This conveniently left me with 100 billion viable cells.

 

I always use the Troester stir plate setting in YeastCalc, it seems to be the more accurate from what I've read around the traps. In any case, it's worked well for me, certainly haven't had any fermentation issues from its recommendations, or weird flavours that may be caused by underpitching.

 

To get the required pitch amount on a stirred starter I need to make the starter 2.6 litres. I harvest about 800mL of them normally, so I increased it to 3.4 litres. Here's how I work them out (rounding numbers):

 

3.4L = 580bn cells

0.8/3.4 = 0.235

580 x 0.235 = 136.5

580 - 136.5 = 443.5 (not enough left over, try again)

 

3.5L = 594bn cells

0.8/3.5 = 0.229

594 x 0.229 = 135.8

594 - 135.8 = 458.2 (still not quite enough)

 

3.6L = 608bn cells

0.8/3.6 = 0.222

608 x 0.222 = 135.1

608 - 135.1 = 472.9

 

So, from this 3.6L starter I can harvest approx. 135 billion cells, and pitch the remaining 473 billion cells into the main batch. Interesting that I have to increase the starter size by more than the amount I actually harvest, in order to keep the amount of cells going into the main batch at or slightly above the required amount. However, this is what I've been doing for the last year and a bit, and it has worked very well.

 

I always try to keep the inoculation rate, i.e. cells pitched into the starter, between 25 and 100 million cells per mL of wort as recommended. I don't worry if it drops a little below the 25, but too far and I build a small starter first to increase the cell count a bit. This is usually only required for yeast that is a bit older, though.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

[Beerlust]

It is important to know that the starter has fully fermented out, or else your cell count estimations can be way off come pitching/harvesting.

 

I have a question for you if I may Kelsey...

 

With suitable temperatures, I've found my 1½ - 2 litre starters generally ferment out in around 2 full days. Given you usually make larger volume starters than I do, I was wondering what timeframe/guideline/visual aspect do you work off to know that you have fully fermented out the starter before harvesting/separating?

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

You'll probably find most of the growth happens well before the thing actually fully ferments out, just as in a normal batch of beer, so it's not a huge deal. That's why the stir plates are usually never run more than 24-36 hours, because the growth has happened during that time.

 

However, I do give them a few days, which is why I started this one tonight. Will give it about 36 hours stirred before turning off the stir plate, so it will then have another 2 full days sitting still. It will be harvested on Saturday. Visual cues I go by are a dropping of the krausen and the "beer" clearing up as the yeast settle to the bottom. Ales generally go faster than lagers so they're usually made up on Wednesdays. Either way, by the Saturday they're fermented out and ready to harvest, so there's no problems in that regard.

 

This heated stir plate will keep the temperature up well above the low teens we're getting overnight at the moment, so it should see it ferment faster once it does get going. In the warmer months obviously temperature is not an issue.

[Jp1525229771]

OVB which yeast calculator do you use?

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

OVB which yeast calculator do you use?

This one mate, http://yeastcalculator.com/

[Waylon]

Ive just under pitched big time going by the yeast calculater!

 

1 pouch of WLP800 in 3 starter pitched (on day 5 of peak activity) into 30 litres of wort OG 1050

 

My plan was originally to step it up the second time @ 3 litres...

 

Hopefully it still works Although I have my doughts now

[Otto Von Blotto]

If you're going to do stepped starters, you're better off starting smaller on the first step. Say, make the first step 1 or 1.5 litres and then the next one 3 litres. It doesn't do much good making two starters the same size one after the other because the second one will have far too high of an inoculation rate to gain any significant growth of cells.

[Jp1525229771]

OVB which yeast calculator do you use?

This one mate' date=' http://yeastcalculator.com/[/quote']

Awesome. Thanks bud.

[joolbag]

Just pitched some harvested Wy2001 into a 3.6 litre starter which is now on the stir plate set at 22C. This info is mainly for joolbag following on from last night's discussion but I imagine it would be useful for anyone looking into this method.

 

Thanks for the long and informative post Kelsey. I have my Boston Lager clone doing a D-rest at the moment in a warm water bath. Once it finishes I'll bring temp down and lager it as low as temp as possible without a brew fridge, then bottle and harvest/wash yeast.

 

I'll wash overnight and brew the next night and pitch it into my black lager extract + grains brew. Both 500mL jars.

 

Thx also for reigniting the cold pitch thread. I'll try both reusing yeast and pitching it cold!

[Otto Von Blotto]

No worries mate. Bear in mind that information is regarding harvesting portions of yeast starters rather than harvesting from fermenter trub and rinsing it, but should be useful if or when you get to the point of buying flasks and stir plates and making starters yourself.

 

Big fan of the cold pitching technique now too after doing a number of batches this way.