Otto Von Blotto Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As I suspected, I have changed the original recipe slightly to account for not having any Cascade hops currently. Anyway, a quick Google search brought up the post with what I believe is the original recipe, oddly enough in the same Brew Day #3 thread. This is the recipe: Devil's Squaw Red Ale: 4kg Maris Otter Pale Malt 300g Caraaroma 200g Carapils 75g Black Patent Mashed for 90 mins @ 66C; I don't insulate my urn so it does drop 2-3 degrees over the 90 mins. 20.00 g Cascade - First Wort 80.0 min 9.00 g Magnum - Boil 60.0 min 20.00 g Centennial - Boil 20.0 min 30g Cascade dry-hopped Brewbrite at 10mins US-05 yeast fermented at 18C These numbers are for a 25 litre batch. They also may differ depending on the AA% of the hops. The last couple of batches, I've left out the Carapils due to not having any, and upped the MO to 4.2kg. I also replaced the FWH with Centennial when I ran out of Cascade, but I think the Cascade was better, so if you have any, use that. The first batch was the only one I dry hopped, subsequent batches have not been dry hopped, but I would recommend it. The stats (based on 75% efficiency): Est Original Gravity: 1.043 SG Est Final Gravity: 1.009 SG Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.4 % (4.7% bottled) Bitterness: 35.9 IBUs Est Color: 27.6 EBC I would say leave the FWH and the 20 min Centennial additions the same, and simply adjust the bittering hops addition to get it around that 36 IBU mark. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hi Kelsey. I had a feeling this might be the one you'd offer up! I've never made a Red Ale before so this will be fun on a number of levels for me. I have a scheduled brew set down for this coming weekend, but I reckon I might queue jump 3 other planned brews & put a partial/extract version of your recipe down the following weekend. I have some unused roasted barley, could I use this in place of the black patent? I'll aim to stick to the recipe as best I can, & will post a recipe using my extract base for you to look over before I brew it. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'd be keen to try a kit-based version of this (if possible) -- maybe starting with one of the OS cans and a short hops boil? Thinking something fairly adaptable like OS Draught or OS Lager as the base, and slight adjustments to the spec grains to suit -- just not sure how close it'd be to the original in the flavour department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hi Lusty Yep, it's probably the best of my regular recipes. The only time it failed was when I inadvertently turned a batch into a slushie in the FV and added extra yeast for carbonation. I think that ruined its flavour. The current bottled batch though is back to its usual excellence. I have no idea how close it is to a red ale style, whatever that is, but there are definite toffee/caramel notes, with enough hop presence to balance it out. It is neither too sweet nor too hoppy. I'm reckon you could use roasted barley in place of the black malt. It's only in there as a color adjustment, this is how it gets that ruby red color like the example of it in my avatar pic. I don't think it really contributes anything noticeable in the flavor. The Caraaroma definitely does though, bloody love that stuff. Gibbo, I guess you'd probably just have to try it and test it. It's hard to say how close it would be. I daresay this beer gets the bulk of its most noticeable flavors from the Caraaroma and the 20 min Centennial addition, and probably a bit from the Cascade additions as well. You can't really do a FWH addition with kits though. A kit like the OS Lager or Draught would probably be a good one to base it off though, or even the Cerveza. Something inoffensive anyway which allows the spec grains and hops to dominate. If you have a big enough capacity for hop boils you could even do a full extract version. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Marris otter - good base malt? Is there anything special about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Something inoffensive anyway which allows the spec grains and hops to dominate. Those were the exact words I was going to use to describe a base kit' date=' haha. Here's a 5 minute first draft: [b']Diable Rouge[/b] (a Craft version of Otto's Devil's Squaw Red Ale) 1/2 OS Lager can 400g LDM 100g CaraAroma 100g CaraPils 40g Black Patent Cascade 5g @ 20m Magnum 5g @ 10m Centennial 5g @ flame-out Cascade 15-20g dry-hop 1/2 x US-05 yeast 10.5L batch OG/FG: 1.043 / 1.011 IBU: 35.9 EBC: 37.5 ABV: 4.6% (bottled) Late edit: Would the IS APA kit be of sufficient inoffensiveness to be considered as a base for this? I have another recipe planned that uses half a can, would be a bit more efficient to use the other half for this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiphile Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 From my reading and from advice from Hairy quite a while ago, Maris Otter gives more of a biscuity, nutty flavour than say pale malt. Golden Promise provides the biscuit flavour without the nuttiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Marris otter - good base malt? Is there anything special about it? Yeah KR Its just about the best Ale Malt going around. As Antiphile says it is nutty. Golden Promise IMO is sweeter and also not a bad malt. Maris Otter is my go to malt' date=' especially where you are not overpowering it with lots of crystal grains or dark roasted grains. In fact MO is ideal for a SMASH brew. Cheers & Beers Scottie [i'][/Valley Brewi] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Looks like a good recipe Gibbo, although it might be a good idea to drop the black malt a tad. 37 EBC is too dark, mine is about 27 EBC. The black malt is only in there as a color adjuster anyway, it doesn't really add anything to the flavor. Try different amounts until the EBC gets to 27, or thereabouts. I'm guessing you're only doing a 10 litre batch or something by those amounts. The APA kit may not work as well as the Lager kit, I'd imagine it has its own late hopping and whatever which might influence it too much. Not saying it would make a bad beer, but it may be different to this red ale. As for Maris Otter, it goes into all my recipes except my lagers in which I use Weyermann Pilsner as the main base malt. I don't really brew a lot of malt heavy beers like stouts etc so I'm happy using it on everything. I definitely love the smell of it when I'm milling the grains at the beginning of a brew day though. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Looks like a good recipe Gibbo' date=' although it might be a good idea to drop the black malt a tad. 37 EBC is too dark, mine is about 27 EBC. The black malt is only in there as a color adjuster anyway, it doesn't really add anything to the flavor. Try different amounts until the EBC gets to 27, or thereabouts. I'm guessing you're only doing a 10 litre batch or something by those amounts.[/quote']Cheers Otto! Correct RE: the small batch -- have updated my post. I can get down to 27 EBC with 10g of black patent, but it starts to seem a little pointless at such a small quantity -- if I drop it entirely and bump the CaraAroma back up to 150g, it's just about spot on at 28-ish EBC, plus the ratios are much closer to your original AG recipe anyway. Thanks for the recipe feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Cheers Otto! Correct RE: the small batch -- have updated my post. I can get down to 27 EBC with 10g of black patent' date=' but it starts to seem a little pointless at such a small quantity -- if I drop it entirely and bump the CaraAroma back up to 150g, it's just about spot on at 28-ish EBC, plus the ratios are much closer to your original AG recipe anyway. Thanks for the recipe feedback![/quote'] Yeah I can appreciate that. That's probably the way to go then, since the black patent doesn't really give any flavour, bumping up the Cara will increase its influence and if the ratios are closer then it's more likely to turn out closer to the original AG recipe. If I dumped the black patent from my own recipe I'd have to use 600g Caraaroma to get to 27EBC, which would definitely way overpower the brew. Edit: I just noticed something. Both my AG recipe and your kit based recipe come out at 35.9IBUs. Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hey Otto This Red Ale has got my attention. My gear can handle this as it is, I love the ingredients (have never used black patent though) and I am keen to try a 90 minute mash. Thanks For Sharing Scottie Valley Brew[\i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brownsworthy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 G'day Otto I have always been intrigued by the beautiful colour of your Red Ale and from other members pictures of theirs and wondered how do they get that brilliant colour. I think I might have to give it a crack myself as an extract brew Gibbo's looks good though looking forward to seeing what Lusty comes up with. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hey Otto This Red Ale has got my attention. My gear can handle this as it is' date=' I love the ingredients (have never used black patent though) and I am keen to try a 90 minute mash. Thanks For Sharing [/quote'] Hey Scottie, No worries will be interested to hear your thoughts on it when you do get around to brewing it. In this recipe the black patent doesn't do much other than provide that deep red color, however I have used it in larger amounts in my porter recipe and I really like it. I don't know whether it is the black malt that gives it this, but they always come out with this sort of chocolatety flavour. Yeah Brownsworthy, I have to say I love the color too, and I suppose the first time I brewed it, I didn't really know what to expect, but definitely sticking with that malt bill. I don't really use Carapils anymore, so I simply raise the base malt amount by 200g. For a full extract brew you could probably just about keep everything the same, except replace the Maris Otter with a couple of tins of light malt. If brewed to 25 litres, it should come out the same. I suppose you could add 100-200g Dex if you wanted to bump the ABV up a bit. Over the four or five times I've done this recipe, I've had varying efficiency, and thus varying ABV content. However, the flavour has remained the same every time. It usually comes out between 4 and 4.5% though, so a nice sessionable full flavoured ale. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi Kelsey. It's still a couple of weekends away from putting your Red Ale recipe down, but I thought I'd start looking into how I can convert it to my extract/partial style. The only problem I've run into strangely enough is matching your quoted EBC for the brew. Given that the beer throws a certain coloured hue, the specialty malt grain values become pretty important. To the same grain levels, & fermented to the same volume, my EBC is 34.8 vs your 27.6. The only thing I can come up with, is that the EBC values you & I use for these grains must be different. Below is the listed EBC values my LHBS quotes for these grains, & what is punched into my brewing calculator. Are yours different to these? CaraAroma = 370 EBC CaraPils = 6 EBC Black Patent = 1300 EBC I don't want to muck with the balance of your recipe by trying to hit that EBC mark if I can help it. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ah, that'll be what it is then. Mine are different, I just used the standard Beersmith ones. Caraaroma (256.1 EBC) Black (Patent) Malt (985.0 EBC) Looking on Craftbrewer, which is where I got these grains from, the values are more like yours. On their website, these two are listed at 1300+ and 350-450 respectively. Perhaps, this beer is in fact darker than 27 EBC. In this case I'd suggest keeping the amounts as they are, and for Gibbo's recipe, I'd suggest simply scaling the amounts back to fit a 10.5 litre batch. Doing this in Beersmith scales the spec grains back to 130g Caraaroma and 30g Black Patent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Perhaps' date=' this beer is in fact darker than 27 EBC. [img']unsure[/img] In this case I'd suggest keeping the amounts as they are Yup, I'm glad about that. As a fair conversion to an extract/partial 23 litre brew that I prefer to brew at, something like the following looks likely... Coopers Light LME 1.5kg Light Dry Malt Extract 500gms Maris Otter grain 600gms (sub this for an extra 500gms of LDM if you don't wish to mash) CaraAroma grain 280gms CaraPils grain 180gms Black Patent or Roasted Barley grain 65gms That should give me the 1.043 OG for the brew. I'll post a hop schedule a bit closer to brew day next week based on the yet unknown alpha levels of the hops I purchase. I'm looking forward to this one! Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I was wondering about the colour -- I'd punched the original recipe into my heavily modified (read: "butchered") version of IanH's calc and wound up around the 37 EBC mark. for Gibbo's recipe' date=' I'd suggest simply scaling the amounts back to fit a 10.5 litre batch.[/quote']This makes my adjusted recipe: Diable Rouge V2 (a Craft version of Otto's Devil's Squaw Red Ale) 1/2 OS Lager can 400g LDM 130g CaraAroma 80g CaraPils 30g Black Patent Cascade 5g @ 20m Magnum 5g @ 10m Centennial 5g @ flame-out Cascade 20g dry-hop 1/2 x US-05 yeast 10.5L batch OG/FG: 1.043 / 1.011 IBU: 35.9 EBC: 37.2 ABV: 4.6% (bottled) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Well, I'm glad that's been cleared up now! I will change the values of those grains in Beersmith to reflect the specs Craftbrewer lists. Anyway, those two recipes/malt bills look pretty good to me. I think you'll get pretty close to achieving the same malt influenced flavours with these, that I get in my AG version. Only thing I'd suggest with the hops in your recipe Lusty, try to keep the FWH and later boil additions pretty much the same and play with the IBUs with the bittering addition. Although I would guess you already thought of that. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnaman Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hey Otto, Lusty & Gibbo, you blokes are going to have to do a bottle swap so your can get a side by side comparison. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divey Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Kelsey, is this recipe the same as your avatar photograph. ?? It's a really impressive Red Ale. I have only ever made one Red Ale and I used about 10% Melanoidin Malt but I don't think it had the richness of the Red that you have achieved. I'm impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hey Divey, It is indeed the same recipe! I think I must have fluked it when I originally brewed it. Anywho, thanks for the comment mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Only thing I'd suggest with the hops in your recipe Lusty' date=' try to keep the FWH and later boil additions pretty much the same and play with the IBUs with the bittering addition. Although I would guess you already thought of that. [img']tongue[/img] Indeed. I don't want to change your recipe. I want to brew it as close as I can to your AG version given the limiting partial mash volumes I am restricted to using. Unlike those who change 1000 things from your base recipe & still want to link any blame for a poor result on your head! Hehe! These numbers are for a 25 litre batch. They also may differ depending on the AA% of the hops. ...I also replaced the FWH with Centennial when I ran out of Cascade' date=' but I think the Cascade was better, so if you have any, use that. The first batch was the only one I dry hopped, subsequent batches have not been dry hopped, but I would recommend it. ...I would say leave the FWH and the 20 min Centennial additions the same, and simply adjust the bittering hops addition to get it around that 36 IBU mark.[/quote'] AA% differences aside, I got ya! Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Excellent. I'm the same, I'll always brew a recipe as written first, or at least as close as I can get to it, before making any changes. If I do look recipes up these days it's usually AG so it's not too hard to replicate. I have to say though, the recipe for SNPA that I found is spot on. No changes necessary, except to convert it to metric and scale it to 25 litres. Both times I've done this recipe it has turned out pretty much bang on to the original beer. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 G'day Kelsey. I've just been & picked up my ingredients for your Red Ale recipe that I'll put down on brew day Sunday. The malt bill I'm using is the one I listed in Post#17, but using 60gms of roasted barley. The hop bill I have followed almost exactly, except I'm using some Warrior in place of the small Magnum addition. Cascade (6.7%AA) 20gms @ FWH Warrior (15.1%AA) 5gms @ 60mins Centennial (8.2%AA) 20gms @ 20mins Cascade 30gms dry hopped. US-05 yeast Brewed to 23 litres Ferment @ 18°C. EBC = 34.2 IBU = 34.6 (close enough) Looking forward to both the brew day, & the beer! Cheers & thanks for sharing, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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