frothy beer

[worry wort]

Ok, so a few of us homebrewers in the Nambucca region seem to be suffering the same problem....in the past 3 months we have put down brews using basic coopers kits, and all of us who used the kit yeast are experiencing extremely frothy brews. I have only used the kit yeast once in the past 6 months and it is very, very heady beer. I thought it was something I had done until we all met up today and 3 of 4 of us are all experiencing the same problem. Does anyone know if there's been a rouge batch of yeast? It seems strange that we all suffered the same issues and the only common link was the use of the kit yeast. One bloke was told by the LHBS that he had over-carbonated, and thats what it looks like, but not 3 out of 4 doing the same thing with different styles of beers but all using the same yeast. Anyone else have an issue with this lately?

 

[Beerlust]

Hi Worry Wort.

Many different aspects affect yeast attenuation levels. The O.S. Coopers kit yeast (I'm guessing this is the one you speak of? ) is a very hearty strain able to attenuate on the higher side from my experiences with it.

I must admit, I didn't know where Nambucca was, so I looked it up. I then had a look at the local weather patterns. Currently you are experiencing quite large swings in temperature throughout the average day. If you & your fellow Nambucca-rite brewers are brewing under ambient conditions it is likely your yeast is not enjoying the fluctuation of temperature from night to day etc. & may be affecting ferments to the point of stalls.

What are the OG & FG readings of your brews & those of your mates prior to bottling. I'll hinge my bets the bulk of the over-carbonation issues you are all experiencing are due to unfermented sugars still being present prior to adding the secondary sugar at bottling as a result of the temp swings in your area IF fermenting under ambient conditions.

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

[worry wort]

Thanks Lusty. I can't talk for the other brewers, I don't know if they keep records, but i do. My brew was put down 21 May, and I would imagine the other guys would be around the same time as we're all drinking the affected brew at the same time. My OG was 1.040 and FG 1.012 was reached on day 9, and same on day 11 and 12 when bottled. Pitching temp was 21deg, day 6 18deg, day 10 19deg, so not a great deal of temp variation.  

cheers

ww.

[PaddyBrew2]

Are you guys the notorious Nambucca KKK ?

( kit n kilo klub)

[worry wort]

24 minutes ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

Are you guys the notorious Nambucca KKK ?

( kit n kilo klub)

im the breakaway, theres a lot of knk guys here but after almost 40 years of making coopers, this year I started experimenting with hops n grains. Should have done it 35 years ago!

 

[Marty_G]

 

5 hours ago, worry wort said:

im the breakaway, theres a lot of knk guys here but after almost 40 years of making coopers, this year I started experimenting with hops n grains. Should have done it 35 years ago!

 

My 1st incarnation as a brew was 30 years ago and i don't recall too many LHBS with hops and all the other goodies being readily sold. Or am I wrong and just did not notice?  At the time  just made one of the  Coopers cans and used a kilo of white sugar in an open FV covered with a tea towel with no hydrometer at ambient and the beer only tasted great after a year in the bottle. I now know why because it was crap.  Aging it that long took all the aldehydes and other shite out of it and made it drinkable.  Oh those were the days! 

[Beerlust]

9 hours ago, worry wort said:

...My OG was 1.040 and FG 1.012 was reached on day 9, and same on day 11 and 12 when bottled.

1.040 to 1.012 is only 69% attenuation. That is a bit low for the Coopers O.S. strain of yeast that I would expect to be nearer 75%. That said, use of steeping grains may bump up the remaining body left in the beer.

10 hours ago, worry wort said:

...Pitching temp was 21deg, day 6 18deg, day 10 19deg, so not a great deal of temp variation.

It actually is mate. A 3 degree swing within the first 6 days heading downward is against the trend when yeast are active. Yeast are exothermic & generate heat when active, so if anything, I would have expected the temp to at least remain near the 20-21 degree mark, not fall. This is an area I would look into if I was you. Likely better insulating your brews during primary fermentation. You may well have had a stall & didn't realise it.

Yeast can only create CO² if they have fermentable sugars present. If you are experiencing over-carbonation issues then I would lower my priming rate at bottling moving forward.

I hope that helps,

Lusty.

[Marty_G]

12 hours ago, worry wort said:

a rouge batch

strange that you were all making the same colour beer what a coincidence ... 

[Marty_G]

So @worry wort you have been brewing for 40 years and you don't use temp control? I would assume that a guy with your experience would be all over that. Maybe it is time to take the fridge and inkBird leap? 

[worry wort]

1 hour ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

strange that you were all making the same colour beer what a coincidence ... 

hahaha, hey, im dyslexic, ko?

[worry wort]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

1.040 to 1.012 is only 69% attenuation. That is a bit low for the Coopers O.S. strain of yeast that I would expect to be nearer 75%. That said, use of steeping grains may bump up the remaining body left in the beer.

It actually is mate. A 3 degree swing within the first 6 days heading downward is against the trend when yeast are active. Yeast are exothermic & generate heat when active, so if anything, I would have expected the temp to at least remain near the 20-21 degree mark, not fall. This is an area I would look into if I was you. Likely better insulating your brews during primary fermentation. You may well have had a stall & didn't realise it.

Yeast can only create CO² if they have fermentable sugars present. If you are experiencing over-carbonation issues then I would lower my priming rate at bottling moving forward.

I hope that helps,

Lusty.

this is the first time I've had this problem, and the reason I raised it as it happened to three out of four brewers all around the same time, not to just one individual, which of course could be identified as a BFU (brewers foul up...), but we do all live within a 1k radius so the local conditions would have impacted on all of us. 

cheers and yes, it did help, as do all the comments on this great forum.

WW.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It probably did remain around 20 degrees through the active phase and dropped off near the end of fermentation which it will do unless you keep the temp up. 

I would think the most likely cause is that it wasn't completely finished in the fermenter. It's possible that you all got a minor infection in the offending batches but this seems unlikely. 

[Lab Cat]

I had this happen with one brew, and it was last year when I brewed without temp control. No idea why, it definitely fermented out.

But 3 of you brewing the same beer around the same time? Way, way too many variables between all of you - are you all brewing at ambient? You have temp variations between houses right there. Is any of you using a fridge?

The only constant would be the beer and the yeast. So logic dictates it's got to be something to do with those. Rock up to the LBS together and get some free kits...!

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

Just throwing it out there as I’ve got no idea, but is it possible that it could be a local water related issue?

[Beerlust]

6 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

I had this happen with one brew, and it was last year when I brewed without temp control. No idea why, 

How odd.

6 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

But 3 of you brewing the same beer around the same time? Way, way too many variables between all of you...

Really?

6 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

...The only constant would be the beer and the yeast. So logic dictates it's got to be something to do with those. 

Who's logic? Not mine.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Lab Cat]

So tell us lusty what the answer is? We don't know, there are variables between each brewer we don't know about - ambient, temp control, sanitising. The idea that any of those would all conspire differently to provide the same result, using kit yeast, for all 3 is not logical.

Until we know more, all we know is the common denominator is the yeast.

 

[worry wort]

On 8/24/2019 at 8:22 AM, MartyG1525230263 said:

So @worry wort you have been brewing for 40 years and you don't use temp control? I would assume that a guy with your experience would be all over that. Maybe it is time to take the fridge and inkBird leap? 

over the years my temp control has been a removalist box lined with alfoil and a 15-20w globe in Canberra, electric blankets in Richmond NSW,  and a heatpad, which I still have, up here on the mid north coast, but as the house is fully insulated and we have a solid fuel heater, the FV is quite happy bubbling away usually around the 18-23deg range. Not really had a problem in the cooler months keeping the wort within the brewing tolerance range, and never lost a batch due to the cold or heat. Never really tried the 12-15deg lagers as I know i can't keep it in that range. Summer, on the other hand, its a bit hard to keep below 22deg, so I do use an old beer fridge with the shelves removed. Never felt I had a need for the inkbird and the likes,  always, well, mostly always, been very happy with the quality of the coopers brews, and moreso now that im experimenting with hops, grains and yeast. Why would you not brew, thats the question!

 

[worry wort]

19 hours ago, NewBrews said:

Just throwing it out there as I’ve got no idea, but is it possible that it could be a local water related issue?

no, we are all from different properties and all but one on our onw tank water, but it was a good thought if we were all on mains.

[worry wort]

22 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

 

But 3 of you brewing the same beer around the same time? Way, way too many variables between all of you - are you all brewing at ambient? You have temp variations between houses right there. Is any of you using a fridge?

 

 

we now have a 4th guy with same prob, he kegs his and is shooting foam like a fire hose. Before going on, we have all made, and are now drinking, batches put down since then and all is how it should be. I have seldom used the kit yeast this year as I work my way through the coopers recipe spreadsheet, but I did with the frothy brew I had. Ok, we all live in a small area with a couple of businesses running home brew as a sideline, so selections not as great as in other areas. Only real LHBS is 55k away at Coffs Harbour. The 4 local brewers who had the problem bought basic kits (2xdraught, 1xlager and 1xreal ale) from local supermarkets, though noone can recall exactly when. 3 of the 4 live on properties so using their own tank water, all long-time brewers, i know 3 of us don't use fridge or any specialist temp control, so yes, brewing at ambient. 

It could have been a. a rare bad batch of yeast, or 2. old stock which may have been exposed to extreme temp variations in the warehouse. Important things are 1. the beer tasted good as it always does, 2. even if it didn't, we still drank it. 3. follow up batches of beer are back to normal.

cheers all

[Marty_G]

@worry wort far enough .... I must admit that I was a bit skeptical about temp control ... when I restarted brewing a couple of years ago I just fell back into the methods I used when I started brewing in the late 80's and served me well then, or so I thought.  I was of the school of thought, much the same as yours, that as long as it stayed within the range of temps in the instruction all was good. So if the days were 24 and the night 16 so what. I would use an infrared thermometer to check the wort temp several times a day and regulate it with damp towels if it was getting too high and wrap it in a blankets if it was getting too cold at night. I thought nothing of a 5 degree swing over 24 hours  ... but following the advice of those on here I invested in an InkBird for $48 and picked up a free fridge, the change in the quality of my beer was incredible ... I set the temp variance to +/- 0.2 and my beer just went to a whole new level ... the taste profile was so clean ...  I suppose it is a persoanl thing but temp control followed by kegging was the best thing that i have done ...  however, there is 100% no doubt that highly accurate temp control is not compulsory however, temperature oscilllations of a few degrees daily 100% impact the flavour profile  ... 

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, worry wort said:

It could have been a. a rare bad batch of yeast, or 2. old stock which may have been exposed to extreme temp variations in the warehouse. Important things are 1. the beer tasted good as it always does, 2. even if it didn't, we still drank it. 3. follow up batches of beer are back to normal.

cheers all

Would have been interesting to see the date codes on everyone's stuff. If you all have normal follow up beers, I'm still putting my money on a yeast issue.

Having had one froth monster I know it's annoying, but at least the end result was good. Mine was really good, but took forever to pour...

I'll second Marty. A fridge and inkbird is a really low cost set up and I like it because I know I'll brew a favourite beer consistently. I don't miss checking the FV everyday either and fiddling to keep it in the zone. Now I only check the brew when I'm taking a sample. It makes brewing easy.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Lab Rat

[Beerlust]

Hi Worry Wort.

On 8/23/2019 at 9:35 PM, worry wort said:

...My OG was 1.040 and FG 1.012 was reached on day 9, and same on day 11 and 12 when bottled.

By chance do you have any of this batch still in bottles? Because if you do, you can test the post-bottled FG.

You might ask why would I want to do this? To see if there is a difference between the measured & accepted FG pre-bottling, & what is remaining post-bottling. If your post-bottled FG is lower than your pre-bottled FG, that tells you there were unfermented sugars still remaining prior to bottling. If this is the case, it will cause over-carbonating in the bottle (or keg) if you are priming at the same rate.

To test your post-bottled FG, simply open a bottle & pour a sample into your hydrometer tube & allow to fully de-gas & come up to the same temperature you took your pre-bottled hydrometer reading. Then take a hydrometer reading.

If the FG is the same as your pre-bottled reading, it will at least eliminate unfermented sugars being still present prior to bottling, as a cause for the over-carbonation issue. If it's lower, there's your likely cause. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Beerlust]

Hi Lab Rat.

18 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

So tell us lusty what the answer is? We don't know, there are variables between each brewer we don't know about - ambient, temp control, sanitising. The idea that any of those would all conspire differently to provide the same result, using kit yeast, for all 3 is not logical.

Until we know more, all we know is the common denominator is the yeast.

The over-carbonation is the common denominator. The yeast is incidental in this case. I'm less likely to believe the yeast is the cause as it appears to have chomped through the bottled priming sugars just fine don't ya think? 

If it was a yeast fail, you'd likely have flat beer, not over-carbonated beer.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[worry wort]

4 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

  I invested in an InkBird for $48 and picked up a free fridge,  

never realised they were that cheap, i've got the fridge...birthdays coming up .....hmmmmm

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

If it was a yeast fail, you'd likely have flat beer, not over-carbonated beer.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Maybe a yeast stall - then restart during conditioning. That could do it. Your post bottling FG check might if that's a possibility. It has to be one thing common to all the brewers involved. At least everyone has drinkable beer.